Trade targets
- Thread starter dude12
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Your position really comes down to what you can defend and Simmons is more than capable of guarding 3s and 4s at an elite level. With that in mind, Simmons and Harris should work just fine as our 3 and 4.
The problem with trade for Simmons is that we have a non-floor spacer at C (Holmes). If we bring Simmons in, we really need to find a way to move Holmes and bring in someone like Turner who can protect the rim and space the floor.
If you’re trading for Simmons, you might as well be dedicated to building a team that fits around him. You’re wasting his talent if you don’t surround him with 4 solid shooters. A lineup of Mitchell-Haliburton-Simmons-Harris-Turner does just that while also being an excellent defensive team.
The problem with trade for Simmons is that we have a non-floor spacer at C (Holmes). If we bring Simmons in, we really need to find a way to move Holmes and bring in someone like Turner who can protect the rim and space the floor.
If you’re trading for Simmons, you might as well be dedicated to building a team that fits around him. You’re wasting his talent if you don’t surround him with 4 solid shooters. A lineup of Mitchell-Haliburton-Simmons-Harris-Turner does just that while also being an excellent defensive team.
Given the rumors the Sixers do not want Fox, do you have any third party trades up your sleeve?
If Sixers take on Buddy Barnes (player x from mystery team) and the Kings take on Simmons and Harris, who is that third team?
how about
Sixers trade Simmons Harris first round pick
Sixers receive Sabonis, Buddy, Barnes
kings trade Fox, Buddy, Barnes, Bagley two 1st round picks
Kings receive Simmons, Harris Turner
Indiana trades Sabonis Turner
Indiana received Fox Bagley and 3 first round picks.
If Sixers take on Buddy Barnes (player x from mystery team) and the Kings take on Simmons and Harris, who is that third team?
how about
Sixers trade Simmons Harris first round pick
Sixers receive Sabonis, Buddy, Barnes
kings trade Fox, Buddy, Barnes, Bagley two 1st round picks
Kings receive Simmons, Harris Turner
Indiana trades Sabonis Turner
Indiana received Fox Bagley and 3 first round picks.
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I don’t think Sabonis is a good fit with Embiid as he’s not the best shooter and probably better at being a full time C. I think Philly declines.
The only 3 team deal that I’ve thought makes some sense is having Simmons go to SAC, Fox go to WAS, and Beal go to PHI.
Beal is a free agent next year (and chose not to sign an extension with WAS) which drives his value down. A contending team has a shot at convincing him to resign and I think a Maxey-Beal-Green-Harris-Embiid lineup is pretty darn solid and has a shot at making some noise in the east.
WAS moves on from the 28 year old Beal and moves forward with retooling/rebuilding around 24 year old Fox.
However, I can see a lot of people saying why wouldn’t WAS just cut SAC out and take Simmons for themselves. Well it likely comes down to if Simmons is really committed to wanting to play in CA and if that scares WAS at all.
The only 3 team deal that I’ve thought makes some sense is having Simmons go to SAC, Fox go to WAS, and Beal go to PHI.
Beal is a free agent next year (and chose not to sign an extension with WAS) which drives his value down. A contending team has a shot at convincing him to resign and I think a Maxey-Beal-Green-Harris-Embiid lineup is pretty darn solid and has a shot at making some noise in the east.
WAS moves on from the 28 year old Beal and moves forward with retooling/rebuilding around 24 year old Fox.
However, I can see a lot of people saying why wouldn’t WAS just cut SAC out and take Simmons for themselves. Well it likely comes down to if Simmons is really committed to wanting to play in CA and if that scares WAS at all.
Yeh I also wonder if the Sixers would balk at the idea of signing Beal to a max contract. If I was the Sixers I’d rather have Sabonis, Barnes and Buddy. Not only would it make them more competitive this year, both Barnes and Buddy would be easier to trade if a bigger opportunity presented itself down the road.
I still think that Morey punts on this season and takes his chances this off-season. The motivation to get off Harris’ contract could tilt towards a trade though.
I still think that Morey punts on this season and takes his chances this off-season. The motivation to get off Harris’ contract could tilt towards a trade though.
The defensive potential of that team is spectacular, no doubt. Offensively.... He could get there, but Davion's 38/29/65 isn't remotely "solid;" it's terrible.
Even playing off Sabonis and Embiid - who draw more attention than anyone on the Kings' team you're assembling - Turner (33% from 3 this year) and Harris (29% from 3) aren't real "solid" either. Even if they rebound to their career averages of 35% and 36% from 3, respectively, Ty would be the only strong 3-baller in that lineup and we know he can't get his shot off at all times. We'd REALLY be relying on that team to hold opponents under 100 every night.
Even playing off Sabonis and Embiid - who draw more attention than anyone on the Kings' team you're assembling - Turner (33% from 3 this year) and Harris (29% from 3) aren't real "solid" either. Even if they rebound to their career averages of 35% and 36% from 3, respectively, Ty would be the only strong 3-baller in that lineup and we know he can't get his shot off at all times. We'd REALLY be relying on that team to hold opponents under 100 every night.
Yeah Mitchell hasn’t been shooting great but he’s been shooting 33% from Dec-Jan and part of it is me still referencing his shooting potential that we saw in his college days.
Harris’ shooting this year has been an anomaly. These are his %s the past few years: 39%, 37%, 40%, & 41%. I don’t think it’s fair factoring in his shooting so long ago to say he’s a career 36% shooter. Players often improve over their careers and the numbers suggest Harris definitely improved his shooting over the years.
Turner has shot between 33%-39% over the last 4 seasons. I’ll take that from my C in regards to floor spacing.
I’m not worried about the shooting from Haliburton, Harris, and Turner as they all have proved they can shoot at a decent clip (at least). Mitchell is the one wild card. We’d be hoping he can live up to his college shooting levels and hope his reportedly strong work ethic gets him there. If worse comes to worst, we can swap Mitchell for Davis for some extra shooting.
Harris’ shooting this year has been an anomaly. These are his %s the past few years: 39%, 37%, 40%, & 41%. I don’t think it’s fair factoring in his shooting so long ago to say he’s a career 36% shooter. Players often improve over their careers and the numbers suggest Harris definitely improved his shooting over the years.
Turner has shot between 33%-39% over the last 4 seasons. I’ll take that from my C in regards to floor spacing.
I’m not worried about the shooting from Haliburton, Harris, and Turner as they all have proved they can shoot at a decent clip (at least). Mitchell is the one wild card. We’d be hoping he can live up to his college shooting levels and hope his reportedly strong work ethic gets him there. If worse comes to worst, we can swap Mitchell for Davis for some extra shooting.
The improvement in Harris' shot over his career is a totally fair point. But. Harris has been very fortunate to play w/some top 3-pt shooting teams, a circumstance that afforded him a lot more open looks that I'd expect him to gets in Sac.
His Pistons team in 2017-18 ranked 5th in 3-pt shooting %. The Clips ranked 2nd in 2018-19. The Sixers ranked 9th in 2019-20 and 10th in 2020-21. Obviously, Harris himself contributed to those rankings, but in each case he's benefitted significantly from a cast of characters that included a dominant inside presence and/or SEVERAL other great 3-pt shooters whose gravity earned each other great looks.
Pistons ranked 5th in 3-pt shooting % in 2017-18; Harris hit 40.9% that year. In 2016-17, the Pistons ranked 28th and Harris hit 34.7% of his 3's. Again, obviously his own shooting contributed to the rankings. But the big different is that the Piston acquired Tolliver (44%), Kennard (42%), and Bradley (38%) and Harris got a lot more open 3's than he had the year before.
So the big question is whether a lineup of Simmons, Mitchell, Turner, and Tyrese alongside Harris more closely resembles the 2016-17 (v. bad) or 2017-18 Pistons (v. good) in terms of likely spacing/looks. I'd guess the former.
His Pistons team in 2017-18 ranked 5th in 3-pt shooting %. The Clips ranked 2nd in 2018-19. The Sixers ranked 9th in 2019-20 and 10th in 2020-21. Obviously, Harris himself contributed to those rankings, but in each case he's benefitted significantly from a cast of characters that included a dominant inside presence and/or SEVERAL other great 3-pt shooters whose gravity earned each other great looks.
Pistons ranked 5th in 3-pt shooting % in 2017-18; Harris hit 40.9% that year. In 2016-17, the Pistons ranked 28th and Harris hit 34.7% of his 3's. Again, obviously his own shooting contributed to the rankings. But the big different is that the Piston acquired Tolliver (44%), Kennard (42%), and Bradley (38%) and Harris got a lot more open 3's than he had the year before.
So the big question is whether a lineup of Simmons, Mitchell, Turner, and Tyrese alongside Harris more closely resembles the 2016-17 (v. bad) or 2017-18 Pistons (v. good) in terms of likely spacing/looks. I'd guess the former.
I mean that's a nice theory, but looking at the stats, it doesn't look like that is true.
If that was true, you'd think Harris would be able to knock down similar shots at a similar rate across those seasons while making the argument that Harris simply had better looks in his more recent years which drove the overall 3PT% up (e.g., you think it's the type of shots improving his 3PT% not him actually improving his shooting).
Here is Harris' C&S vs. Pull-Up %s across those two time periods (per36 min):
As you can see, he converted his catch & shoot and pull-up 3PT shots at a much higher rate in his most recent years. Now you can argue that those looks were more open in the more recent years (hence why the %s are higher). So let's take a look at how well he shot 3s based on how close the defender was to him...
As you can see, he's knocking down his threes at a higher rate than earlier in his career while controlling for his "openness" (with the exception of 0-2 Feet which only has a sample size of 14 3PAs across 8 seasons).
I think it's safe to say that he's improved as a shooter throughout his career and that his %s aren't solely based on him getting better, more open looks in the latter part of his career.
If that was true, you'd think Harris would be able to knock down similar shots at a similar rate across those seasons while making the argument that Harris simply had better looks in his more recent years which drove the overall 3PT% up (e.g., you think it's the type of shots improving his 3PT% not him actually improving his shooting).
Here is Harris' C&S vs. Pull-Up %s across those two time periods (per36 min):
As you can see, he converted his catch & shoot and pull-up 3PT shots at a much higher rate in his most recent years. Now you can argue that those looks were more open in the more recent years (hence why the %s are higher). So let's take a look at how well he shot 3s based on how close the defender was to him...
As you can see, he's knocking down his threes at a higher rate than earlier in his career while controlling for his "openness" (with the exception of 0-2 Feet which only has a sample size of 14 3PAs across 8 seasons).
I think it's safe to say that he's improved as a shooter throughout his career and that his %s aren't solely based on him getting better, more open looks in the latter part of his career.
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So let’s say Simmons is off the table. Would Kings fans trade Buddy, Bagley and Thompson for Harris and a first round pick?
Fox
Haliburton
Barnes
Harris
Holmes
that is an upgrade over our current team and we get an extra first to play with.
that is a lot of salary tied up but then again we are going to have a tough time attracting free agents.
id think long and hard about it as Harris is a pretty big upgrade.
Fox
Haliburton
Barnes
Harris
Holmes
that is an upgrade over our current team and we get an extra first to play with.
that is a lot of salary tied up but then again we are going to have a tough time attracting free agents.
id think long and hard about it as Harris is a pretty big upgrade.
I think that if there is a team that Fox could really work well on it would be Boston IF they are willing to break up tatum/brown, Frankly I think that partnership has gone as far as it can and the rest of the league knows it, its a matter of them knowing it (much like CJ/Dame).
SAC Out: Fox, Holmes, Buddy, Barnes, Bagley, Jones,2022 FRP (to IND), 2024 FRP (to BOS)), 2023 Pick swap with BOS.
SAC In: Brown, Horford, Turner, Lamb, Pritchard
BOS Out: Brown and Horford, 2022 FRP to IND
BOS In: Fox, Lavert, Holmes, Jones 2023 Pick swap with SAC.
IND Out: Lavert, Turner, Lamb
IND In: Buddy, Barnes, Bagley, 2022 SAC FRP
SAC Roster:
Mitchell/Pritchard/Ramsey
Hali/TD/Lamb
Brown/Lamb/Harkless
Turner/Metu/Thompson/Harkless
Horford/Len/Thompson
Why: Well, I am not really a fan of moving Fox or Barnes as I really like both players, but they are really the only players outside of hali that have any real value. I think Buddy could still have value but not with his contract. Irrespective though, this team is not a playoff team without major changes, and that is either blow it up and draft over the next 5 years, or move them for legit pieces. I think Brown, Turner and even horford all constitute real pieces, even if Horford's contract is bloated. This would give a legitimate post defender in Horford (and Tuner) with legit rim protection with Turner and horford. It adds a legit second perimeter defender next to mitchell and keeps the shooting level around mitchell very high. Even with an aging horford, you can go smaller and play Tuner and Metu to increase the tempo. I think this would be a legit playoff team and is far more potent on the defensive end without losing too much on the offensive end.
IND Roster:
Brogdan/McConnell/Sykes/Washington
Buddy/Duarte
Barnes/Holiday/Craig
Warren/Bagley/Craig
Sabonis/Bargley/Brisset
Why: They get another FRP and split the Sabonis/Turner combo which isnt working. They add shooting around brogdan, but overall, they are still treading water. They do however get a former #2 overall, who can legit still play but needs a better opportunity to grown and they get a free look at him. If they like the fit, they sign him (Probably for cheaper than he is worth) or they get 11M off the books if they let him walk. They also upgrade at the SF position. Of the 3 team on this plan though, they are the ones that are questionable. This does put them in full tank mode and they can then even look to move sabonis and possibly brogdan to more picks/pieces.
BOS Roster:
Fox/Schroeder/Smart
Lavert/Smart/Richardson
Tatum/Nesmith/Richardson/Langford
GWilliams/Hernangomez/Fernando
Holmes/RWilliams/Freedom
It does thin them out on the front line, but they will have a much better offensive punch with lavert, Fox and Holmes, taking tremendous pressure off Tatum. It is a more balanced team who will add a pick swap and a FRP and get out from under Horfords contract.
SAC Out: Fox, Holmes, Buddy, Barnes, Bagley, Jones,2022 FRP (to IND), 2024 FRP (to BOS)), 2023 Pick swap with BOS.
SAC In: Brown, Horford, Turner, Lamb, Pritchard
BOS Out: Brown and Horford, 2022 FRP to IND
BOS In: Fox, Lavert, Holmes, Jones 2023 Pick swap with SAC.
IND Out: Lavert, Turner, Lamb
IND In: Buddy, Barnes, Bagley, 2022 SAC FRP
SAC Roster:
Mitchell/Pritchard/Ramsey
Hali/TD/Lamb
Brown/Lamb/Harkless
Turner/Metu/Thompson/Harkless
Horford/Len/Thompson
Why: Well, I am not really a fan of moving Fox or Barnes as I really like both players, but they are really the only players outside of hali that have any real value. I think Buddy could still have value but not with his contract. Irrespective though, this team is not a playoff team without major changes, and that is either blow it up and draft over the next 5 years, or move them for legit pieces. I think Brown, Turner and even horford all constitute real pieces, even if Horford's contract is bloated. This would give a legitimate post defender in Horford (and Tuner) with legit rim protection with Turner and horford. It adds a legit second perimeter defender next to mitchell and keeps the shooting level around mitchell very high. Even with an aging horford, you can go smaller and play Tuner and Metu to increase the tempo. I think this would be a legit playoff team and is far more potent on the defensive end without losing too much on the offensive end.
IND Roster:
Brogdan/McConnell/Sykes/Washington
Buddy/Duarte
Barnes/Holiday/Craig
Warren/Bagley/Craig
Sabonis/Bargley/Brisset
Why: They get another FRP and split the Sabonis/Turner combo which isnt working. They add shooting around brogdan, but overall, they are still treading water. They do however get a former #2 overall, who can legit still play but needs a better opportunity to grown and they get a free look at him. If they like the fit, they sign him (Probably for cheaper than he is worth) or they get 11M off the books if they let him walk. They also upgrade at the SF position. Of the 3 team on this plan though, they are the ones that are questionable. This does put them in full tank mode and they can then even look to move sabonis and possibly brogdan to more picks/pieces.
BOS Roster:
Fox/Schroeder/Smart
Lavert/Smart/Richardson
Tatum/Nesmith/Richardson/Langford
GWilliams/Hernangomez/Fernando
Holmes/RWilliams/Freedom
It does thin them out on the front line, but they will have a much better offensive punch with lavert, Fox and Holmes, taking tremendous pressure off Tatum. It is a more balanced team who will add a pick swap and a FRP and get out from under Horfords contract.
While that is true that he is a huge risk, but he is a high reward player. As for his behavior, if he does continue with that charade, I think that would be the end of his career. Doing the same BS on two separate teams to that degree, I dont think any 3rd team would every be willing to give him an opportunity again. That said, I dont find a trade without a 3rd team (mainly Washington or Portland) that could work because with Maxey there, Fox is redundant and expensive. Putting Simmons next to Fox wouldnt work either (if Hali and Barnes/Buddy are the trade) because the spacing would be horrendous. Simmons is not a player we can or should get. The pieces just would never fit unless there is a 3rd team involved.
Sorry, read tour comment wrong. I think most of the issue is the fact that his coach and team railroaded him after his performance in the playoffs. The harsh criticisms from fans booing him multiple times thru the years and the overexposure in the media. Sacramento is a small franchise that gets minimal coverage and our fans are quite compassionate, especially towards Allstars. This team has revitalized a few players' careers and I think a big part of that is the minimal exposure and great atmosphere in the arena. Hypothetically if we did get him via trade, our seats would sell out immediately and there would be nonstop cheering. The atmosphere he'd be playing in would change from negative to positive in a blink of an eye.
Just my take.
Just my take.
I would absolutely move HB, Bagley, Hield, Holmes, TT, Harkless if anyone wants him. I’d be willing to move Davion in a deal as long as he and the other pieces bring back something really good and I’d be willing to also offer up the next years first with a top 3 or 5 protection but could wave that if the player coming back is good enough.
I’d keep Fox and Halliburton.
I’d keep Fox and Halliburton.
