Tobias Harris

#31
Kings worked out his brother Terry Harris. I think the only other team to work out Terry to this point is Philly, who worked out both of his brothers. I’m guessing they’ll go for it but im not sure I’m sold on Tobias as a fit for the team, or somebody I want commanding his salary and the touches offensively.

I kinda want the Kings to refrain from getting players of that magnitude unless obvious superstars like Kawhi fall in their lap, which won’t happen. I want the young core to get another year to paint a clearer picture of what exactly needs to be plugged in to put this thing over the top. So I want the Kings to focus more on lower key depth moves at in the rotation. A little more playmaking at the guards, a little more strength up front and a little more length on the wings . Try to fill the smaller holes which themselves led to atleast 10 losses for a 39 win team last season
 
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bajaden

Hall of Famer
#32
Kings worked out his brother Terry Harris. I think the only other team to work out Terry to this point is Philly, who worked out both of his brothers. I’m guessing they’ll go for it but im not sure I’m sold on Tobias as a fit for the team, or somebody I want commanding his salary and the touches offensively.

I kinda want the Kings to refrain from getting players of that magnitude unless obvious superstars like Kawhi fall in their lap, which won’t happen. I want the young core to get another year to paint a clearer picture of what exactly needs to be plugged in to put this thing over the top. So I want the Kings to focus more on lower key depth moves at in the rotation. A little more playmaking at the guards, a little more strength up front and a little more length on the wings . Try to fill the smaller holes which themselves led to atleast 10 losses for a 39 win team last season
I get where your coming from, and there's a part of me that agree's with your position. However, I don't think that's the Kings mindset. I think they are determined to make the playoff's next season, and the only way to insure that, or at least come close to insuring that, is to make significant improvement. Harris would fit that description. And there are several other players that would fit it as well.

When a team has been on the outside looking in for as long as the Kings have, a milk toast approach to free agency isn't going to set well with ownership, or with the fan base. It's one thing to go after big names and strike out, but it's quite another to use your money on 2nd and 3rd tier players without even making an effort at the top players.

In a normal year we would have a 1st rd draft pick to circle the wagons around. But that's not the case this year. However we will have around 38 mil in cap space. We do have an up and coming young team that should be attractive to some of the better players in free agency. That's not to say that they're aren't some 2nd tier players that would make a difference. A Patrick Beverly would be a great addition, but even he wouldn't come cheap.

I do agree that we need to be careful with our money, and make sure we spend it on players that fit our team and will improve our team. But this isn't the off season to sit on our hands, or our wallet.
 

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#33
If the Kings are determined to pick up talent and spend big on it Harris is likely the only smart realistic target that fits the modern NBA. Fox, Buddy, Barnes, Harris, and Bagley is a lot of talent. If it doesn't work then that Harris deal becomes an albatross but if it ended up a miserable failure that's on your coach. No way should that be unworkable by any sense of the imagination.
 

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#34
I get where your coming from, and there's a part of me that agree's with your position. However, I don't think that's the Kings mindset. I think they are determined to make the playoff's next season, and the only way to insure that, or at least come close to insuring that, is to make significant improvement. Harris would fit that description. And there are several other players that would fit it as well.

When a team has been on the outside looking in for as long as the Kings have, a milk toast approach to free agency isn't going to set well with ownership, or with the fan base. It's one thing to go after big names and strike out, but it's quite another to use your money on 2nd and 3rd tier players without even making an effort at the top players.

In a normal year we would have a 1st rd draft pick to circle the wagons around. But that's not the case this year. However we will have around 38 mil in cap space. We do have an up and coming young team that should be attractive to some of the better players in free agency. That's not to say that they're aren't some 2nd tier players that would make a difference. A Patrick Beverly would be a great addition, but even he wouldn't come cheap.

I do agree that we need to be careful with our money, and make sure we spend it on players that fit our team and will improve our team. But this isn't the off season to sit on our hands, or our wallet.

And the fact that the Kings "youth" is already getting close to the point where their contracts are up one after the other means they have a limited window to add without subtracting first. If they want to make a big splash this offseason is their only real opportunity. The only concern is the kind of team they are trying to build. I'd be more concerned about adding a big money center like Vucevic because a one position player only gives you so many ways to fit them into your scheme. Someone like Harris is versatile in the ways you want players to be versatile at the moment.
 
#35
Tobias Harris is a 9 year NBA veteran. He has exactly one season, this year, where he averaged 20.0 points per game, a contract year.

He is a nice complimentary player, a good 2nd or 3rd option, but he is not a number 1 option. He was the 3rd or 4th option on Philly. I don’t see Harris as a Max level player, same for Vucevic. These players for $20-$25 million per year, sure, why not.

But, at $35 million, he will quickly become a very expensive 3rd or 4th option, behind Buddy, Fox and eventually Bagley. As a 3rd option and on a $35 million a year contract, he would be difficult to trade.
 
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#36
Tobias Harris is a 9 year NBA veteran. He has exactly one season, this year, where he averaged 20.0 points per game. He is a nice complimentary player, a good 2nd or 3rd option, but he is not a number 1 option. He was the 3rd or 4th option on Philly. I don’t see Harris as a Max level player. For $20-$25 million per year, sure, why not.

But, at $35 million, he will quickly become a very expensive 3rd or 4th option, behind Buddy, Fox and eventually Bagley. As a 3rd option and on a $35 million a year contract, he would be difficult to trade.
I agree completely. Harris is NOT worth Max money nor is Vucevic. They are both low level all star at best. If a player could be assigned an arbitrary number like in a video game then you want to maximize players rating to dollars ratio. If you drastically overspend then you kill that ratio and just handcuff yourself when that money could be better spent elsewhere.
 

Entity

Hall of Famer
#37
I only see 2 max players that is Leonard and Durant. The rest should be 20-25 such as Harris and Vucevic. I am scared Vucevic is getting the best player on a bad team treatment. We have seen that before with Kevin Martin and Tyreke Evans come to mind. V is good don’t get me wrong but I don’t think he gets those numbers in Sacramento. So if you are good with 15pts 9reb a game for 25 mil then let’s do it. But not for 35 mil no
 
#38
I am also ok with Harris or Vucevic for 25 Mil, But there are a lot of teams with cap space that might create a feeding friensy after the top FA are resigned, I was reading one article that said if a lot of top tier FA are resigned by their existing contender teams to keep contender squads together there might be a bunch of Cap Space teams (knicks,nets,Clippers,etc) with no where to spend. In that situation I would think it would not be possible for Kings to get Harris or Vucevic for 25 mil.

If Harris got 25m offers from Philly,Knicks, Nets and Kings, we really would not have a chance in hell

Now if all the top tier FA players bolt from their teams to Cap space teams, that is our dream senario, because the old teams are still over cap, the new cap space teams have spent there max contracts, then the Kings Might be able to get a FA for less than max. thats a lot of If's
 
#39
Harris is getting the Max from someone. Vuc is 50/50.

This is the way the NBA works, years that teams have cap space and there are multiple bidders you will over pay for talent. Phili and he may just come to an agreement immediately. They traded A LOT to get him, I can't see them letting him walk.
 
#40
I only see 2 max players that is Leonard and Durant. The rest should be 20-25 such as Harris and Vucevic. I am scared Vucevic is getting the best player on a bad team treatment. We have seen that before with Kevin Martin and Tyreke Evans come to mind. V is good don’t get me wrong but I don’t think he gets those numbers in Sacramento. So if you are good with 15pts 9reb a game for 25 mil then let’s do it. But not for 35 mil no
And that's the problem with baseline numbers. You can't look at most players as max in any other form then the space they take up on your cap since not all max players are created equal. Moving max overpaid talent will be next to impossible but overpaying if you can afford it with the hope that their contracts eventually fall off your books without making it impossible to hold on to your real talent is the gamble teams make all the time. If the talent fits in some way it's still probably a better option to get that little kick in extra talent even if it's at twice the price as the next option. I think the Kings getting as lucky as they did in the draft last year gives them options to overpay now and have it not hurt too bad in the long run. Vuc I'm not as sold on as a fit because defensively you again saw in the playoffs how quickly your big man can become a liability that can't be covered up. If you are a team that can put him in a role where he's a top 2 option you'll get your moneys worth otherwise you won't. I do think 15 and 9 out of someone like Harris has more value than Vuc because Harris helps you create mismatches in the process. Vuc in a big lineup could as well but not nearly as effective IMO.
 
#41
25 mill therabouts is as high as kings should go on either Vuc or Harris imo. If another team wants to go over 30 mil for either then hopefully kings don't match stupid with stupider

Only guys worth that much are leanard, durant and maybe Klay

Speaking of which, if kings want to overpay with max on someone, id hope they start by offering it to Klay first
 
#42
I hope Divac is less confused than I am about Vuc. On offense, he's a perfect fit - an outside shooting big man that opens the floor for Fox and Bagley and who can also go inside easily against mis-matches. I just don't know on the defensive end. Can he become a high-IQ defensive big man like a Marc Gasol? I just don't know.
 
#43
I only see 2 max players that is Leonard and Durant. The rest should be 20-25 such as Harris and Vucevic. I am scared Vucevic is getting the best player on a bad team treatment. We have seen that before with Kevin Martin and Tyreke Evans come to mind. V is good don’t get me wrong but I don’t think he gets those numbers in Sacramento. So if you are good with 15pts 9reb a game for 25 mil then let’s do it. But not for 35 mil no
I hope you are right about this, but for a backwards selfish reason of my own.

If there is a consensus that Leonard and Durant are the only two max-worthy guys... that would suggest maybe the Kings can grab Jimmy Butler with a max - which you're saying would be a clear overpay - which means maybe it won't be matched and we have a legit chance to be the high bidder.

I am overjoyed if we could pull that move off.

But I think the max threshold is lower than just those two superstars. Hope I'm wrong.
 
#44
I hope you are right about this, but for a backwards selfish reason of my own.

If there is a consensus that Leonard and Durant are the only two max-worthy guys... that would suggest maybe the Kings can grab Jimmy Butler with a max - which you're saying would be a clear overpay - which means maybe it won't be matched and we have a legit chance to be the high bidder.

I am overjoyed if we could pull that move off.

But I think the max threshold is lower than just those two superstars. Hope I'm wrong.
Are you talking super max or max? Max contracts historically are only relative to the highest paid player on your own cap, or that's how it should be viewed. Every team has a player they view as their best and therefor is a "max" player. Getting better values financially and taking an even slight talent ding as a result won't fly. For instance, is Tobias Harris twice the player Marcus Morris is? No, but he's better and he'll get paid twice as much easy. Go for the talent first, then the bargain next. That's pretty much been Vlades MO up to this point.
 
#45
I like harris as a player. I would have preferred him over Harrison Barnes, but barnes is less expensive and checks most of the boxes that Harris does. That being said i think both could make for an offensive killer line up which could be very similar to GSW's death lineup with Fox, Buddy, Barnes, Harris, Bagley all being able to hurt you from 3 or inside. The spacing would be crazy. That being said Bagley is not the defender that Draymond is and Buddy certainly is not the defenders that Klay is. You have augmented your strenths (offense and 3pt shooting) but exacerbated your weaknesses (defense, rim protection, and rebounding). The Kings problem last year certainly wasnt their offense. I cant tell you how frustrating it was watching wcs play defense with hands down. Not fighting for rebounds. Have 4 rebound games. You need to improve the defense, rim protection and if you can do it, the spacing. I think Dedmon allows you to do that. He is an above average defender, an average to good rim protector and an elite outside shooter at his position. He shoots a higher percentage at the basket than WCS and runs the floor well (albeit not like Willie). He made 6.3M this year. I think he can be had for 12-15M per, for 4 yrs. If you can sign him, you let willie walk. Move forward with Dedmon, giles, bagley and Bjellie with Kosta (Brought back cor ~3-5M) as deep bench. Go after Beverly to help shore perimeter defense. He made ~5M last year but was a starter for most of his career. I think he could be convinced to go to the bench for 8-11 for 3yrs if he is having good playing time (25 min per). He can take that from Mason and yogi. I think brewer can be kept for the vet min to backup barnes and bogie can also do it in spots.

PG: Fox/Beverly
SG: Buddy/Bogie
SF: Barnes/Brewer
PF: Bagley/Bejlica/Giles
C: Dedmon/Giles/Koufas

It leaves you with an additional $3-7M in cap space and the $9MLE to go get additional players or extend players/adjust salaries for the free agents.
 
#46
Tobias Harris is a 9 year NBA veteran. He has exactly one season, this year, where he averaged 20.0 points per game, a contract year.

He is a nice complimentary player, a good 2nd or 3rd option, but he is not a number 1 option. He was the 3rd or 4th option on Philly. I don’t see Harris as a Max level player, same for Vucevic. These players for $20-$25 million per year, sure, why not.

But, at $35 million, he will quickly become a very expensive 3rd or 4th option, behind Buddy, Fox and eventually Bagley. As a 3rd option and on a $35 million a year contract, he would be difficult to trade.
Well I think everything is relative. Harris points per game has remained proportional to shots taken per game. Meaning, he's been a very efficient and consistent player throughout his career. Give him 18 to 20 shots a game, and he'll score you over 20 pt's a game. Harris has always been a team guy who will sacrifice some of his game for the good of the team. He's the antithesis of Willie. That said, I'm not sure I want to pay him max money. Oh, and by the way, not to nic pic, but he's only been in the league for 8 years, not 9.

Here's a question for you. If you had a guarantee the team would make the playoff's with Harris, would he be worth max money then? Or, would it be better to be frugal, and sign someone for half that amount, but just miss the playoffs? Which is the priority, winning, or saving money?
 
#47
Well I think everything is relative. Harris points per game has remained proportional to shots taken per game. Meaning, he's been a very efficient and consistent player throughout his career. Give him 18 to 20 shots a game, and he'll score you over 20 pt's a game. Harris has always been a team guy who will sacrifice some of his game for the good of the team. He's the antithesis of Willie. That said, I'm not sure I want to pay him max money. Oh, and by the way, not to nic pic, but he's only been in the league for 8 years, not 9.

Here's a question for you. If you had a guarantee the team would make the playoff's with Harris, would he be worth max money then? Or, would it be better to be frugal, and sign someone for half that amount, but just miss the playoffs? Which is the priority, winning, or saving money?
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#48
Are you talking super max or max? Max contracts historically are only relative to the highest paid player on your own cap, or that's how it should be viewed. Every team has a player they view as their best and therefor is a "max" player. Getting better values financially and taking an even slight talent ding as a result won't fly. For instance, is Tobias Harris twice the player Marcus Morris is? No, but he's better and he'll get paid twice as much easy. Go for the talent first, then the bargain next. That's pretty much been Vlades MO up to this point.
Well that concept wouldn't work very well is the best player on your team is on his rookie contract. Sometimes, the highest paid player isn't your best player. Which is unfortunate of course. But a max contract is determined first, by who is willing to pay one. Second, it's determined by years in the NBA, which then determines the percentage of the cap that will be used in that given year. With 6 years or less of service, a max contract would be 25% of the cap that year. 7 to 9 years would be 30%, 10 and over would be 35%. In the coming off season, that translates to a starting salary of $27,250,000.00 for 6 yr's or less. $32,700,000.00 for 7 to 9 years, and $38,150,000.00 for 10 years and over.

Of course Harris falls into the 7 to 9 year group. So it's a matter of who is willing, if anyone, to pay him a max salary. Perhaps we should take up a collection, or maybe a go fund me...
 
#49
Here's a question for you. If you had a guarantee the team would make the playoff's with Harris, would he be worth max money then? Or, would it be better to be frugal, and sign someone for half that amount, but just miss the playoffs? Which is the priority, winning, or saving money?
IMHO, signing Harris would not guarantee we make the playoffs next year. The teams that he has been on has been marginal playoff teams to missing the playoffs most of his years. To me, he is a good complimentary player, but not a superstar that can carry a team.

As far as being frugal, I just don’t want to see the Kings spend max money on a non-max level player and regret it in 2-3 years when we can’t afford to pay our own home grown stars, which are our foundation.

Don’t get me wrong though, if we can sign Harris for $20-25 million, then sure. But a max contract to a potential 3rd or 4th option player, would be salary cap suicide in a couple of years.
 
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#50
Are you talking super max or max? Max contracts historically are only relative to the highest paid player on your own cap, or that's how it should be viewed. Every team has a player they view as their best and therefor is a "max" player. Getting better values financially and taking an even slight talent ding as a result won't fly. For instance, is Tobias Harris twice the player Marcus Morris is? No, but he's better and he'll get paid twice as much easy. Go for the talent first, then the bargain next. That's pretty much been Vlades MO up to this point.
Super max is only for your own draft picks and they have to meet criteria.
 
#51
Well that concept wouldn't work very well is the best player on your team is on his rookie contract. Sometimes, the highest paid player isn't your best player. Which is unfortunate of course. But a max contract is determined first, by who is willing to pay one. Second, it's determined by years in the NBA, which then determines the percentage of the cap that will be used in that given year. With 6 years or less of service, a max contract would be 25% of the cap that year. 7 to 9 years would be 30%, 10 and over would be 35%. In the coming off season, that translates to a starting salary of $27,250,000.00 for 6 yr's or less. $32,700,000.00 for 7 to 9 years, and $38,150,000.00 for 10 years and over.

Of course Harris falls into the 7 to 9 year group. So it's a matter of who is willing, if anyone, to pay him a max salary. Perhaps we should take up a collection, or maybe a go fund me...
I'm talking in general. Eventually that rookie would be viewed as the max guy most likely even if they aren't in that one or two best in the world consideration by most. You simply can't view those things as you aren't LeBron therefore you should take 10 million less. Yes, ideally that's the case but you don't win championships based on what team has the most relative to individual values on the books. You win them by having a few overpaid guys mixed in with some severely underpaid ring chasers. At least you used to. Before any semblance of a salary cap went out the window that is. Now the ring chasers just wait their small contract out until the team can overpay them. The cap system is broken.
 
#52
Super max is only for your own draft picks and they have to meet criteria.
Again, that statement I responded to was about general values of players. Like LeBron and Kawhi should make the max they can and no player should have a max deal since they are the bar, even if their max is lower, they aren't "max" players. Ideally it should be that way, but it isn't.
 
#53
Again, that statement I responded to was about general values of players. Like LeBron and Kawhi should make the max they can and no player should have a max deal since they are the bar, even if their max is lower, they aren't "max" players. Ideally it should be that way, but it isn't.
Max contracts should be eliminated. If a team wants to spend $50 mil/year on a payer, they should be able to. I think it would help reduce the amount of stacked teams as well. It's weird that we may see a guy of Tobias' caliber being paid the same amount as Kawhi Leonard.

The NBA is artificially controlling the market by applying a max contract level. Would the Lakers be able to compete for Leonard with their $35 mil in cap space when New York can offer Leonard $50 mil? You'd see less stars (or superstars) together because it would be very difficult to have two $40 mil/year or two $50 mil/year players on a roster while trying to assemble the rest of the team.
 
#54
Max contracts should be eliminated. If a team wants to spend $50 mil/year on a payer, they should be able to. I think it would help reduce the amount of stacked teams as well. It's weird that we may see a guy of Tobias' caliber being paid the same amount as Kawhi Leonard.

The NBA is artificially controlling the market by applying a max contract level. Would the Lakers be able to compete for Leonard with their $35 mil in cap space when New York can offer Leonard $50 mil? You'd see less stars (or superstars) together because it would be very difficult to have two $40 mil/year or two $50 mil/year players on a roster while trying to assemble the rest of the team.
If it's a monetary decision it depends, can LA give him 100 million more in outside endorsements? If the question is one of monetary gain this is the same question and issues smaller market teams are having to deal with and as the years have gone on it's only gotten worse. Here we go yet again, another superstar forces themselves into one of those two major markets. We never seem to see players demanding to be traded to Charlotte or Utah do we? If the idea is one of competitiveness and parity the only model that represents that possibility coming to fruition revolves around the idea of a harder cap. The Warriors are prepared to spend like a billion dollars on players. Two of those max players might not even play next year. Parity in the NBA does not exist and the ratings are starting to reflect it. It's a downhill slide that they might want to look into sooner than later. Until then smaller market teams need to be cognizant of overpaying to the extent that the player they intend to overpay a) fits the model they are building towards, b) will likely make their team more competitve, and c) won't potentially negate the ability for them to keep their team together as it becomes necessary to re-sign other talent on their team over time. I think the Kings are lucky because they do seem to have something to build on and a clearer picture of what they are. Harris in theory could fit that. So again, as a first option, would you rather pay Marcus Morris half or even a third of what Harris makes per year, or pay Harris what Leonard makes? I can truly see arguments for both but in the Kings case, I don't think overpaying at this juncture is at all a death sentence if the player fits your needs. Harris is close to league standard of your typical overpaid type so it wouldn't be terrible. He's better than Otto Porter.