The ONE AND ONLY Luka Doncic discussion thread

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#31
This is interesting. I run a business and in business, you don't sweep mistakes under the rug and ignore them. Pretend they don't exist. Particularly when there are long term ramifications. Emotion plays no part. You are constantly looking to improve and learn from your mistakes. The definition of a mistake can be subjective yet as a practice, I regularly make a habit of tracking the results of decisions and weighing them vs our competitors.

Why would the NBA be any different?

Objectively speaking, passing on Luka was a highly questionable decision. Throw draft day emotion out the window and simply chart results from draft day until today. Luka has been a better player than anyone on the current Kings roster. In this case, it isn't simply Luka vs Bagley. It's the decision of bypassing building around Luka because Fox is considered the cornerstone. As of today, few, if any would choose Fox as a cornerstone over Luka.

Bypassing Luka was one of the most important decisions this franchise made spanning a multi-year period and the results impact the next decade. What business or those involved in such a business would decide that topic isn't worth discussing?

Why, if there was a potential massive screwup, would people not hold those responsible for the decision to answer to it?

The same people who passed on Luka, fired Joerger and are currently presiding over an 0-3 team which has lost by 25+ points twice, while none of the other 29 NBA teams combined have lost by 25 points once.

If this type of mismanagement, these red flags happen within my company or countless other private organizations, everything is put on the table and dissected.

But the fans of a team who haven't made the playoffs since '06 can't discuss a potential massive mistake, which is effecting the team here and now, on the main forums.

I'm generally amused that "I'm tired of hearing about Luka" is a valid argument.

The team hasn't made the playoffs since '06 and I'm sick of the repeat mismanagement appears like a more valid argument.
And yet, here you are discussing it. The ONLY restriction is that the discussion be confined to one thread instead of permeating many different threads. This is not the first time this has happened. I'm pretty sure no one is going to be dissuaded by the location of the thread since the title itself speaks volumes.

Straw man arguments don't do well around here. Have a good night and feel free to continue to discuss Doncic. If you want to continue to discuss the mod's decision, send us a PM.
 

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#34
Straw man arguments don't do well around here.
If you were to correctly state your new rule, you'd acknowledge there is no Luka discussion allowed in the main forums, as I pointed out. This isn't a main forum. Kings Rap is. There's a distinction and you're severely limiting where the topic can be discussed.

Furthermore, in your OP you already stated your stance:

We get it. Some of you simply cannot resist the urge to compare Bagley to Doncic, to regret drafting Bagley over Doncic, to sing the praises of Doncic, etc. What's happening, however, is the vast majority of fans here don't want to talk about Doncic. They've moved on and they get frustrated (myself included as a fan) with seeing Doncic's name pop up in multiple threads.

A passive aggressive, biased, slightly insulting shot at those who still question the passing on Luka decision.

You could have commented on 95% of my post. Instead you ignored 95% of my post.

And it's generally ridiculous that you of all people would suggest I don't know what type of arguments work around here, having been a member for over a decade with 12K+ posts.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#35
Pretty sure Vlade steps down this season. He gave himself a timeline and it isn't looking good. Vivek isn't gonna talk him out of it either, he wanted Luka*.

*according to multiple draft day tweets, so I reckon we can take it with a grain of salt, but it's an interesting narrative.
The one time meddlesome owners not only would have been tolerated, they would have been celebrated from the rooftops.

Of course, only in Sacramento, where inept meddlesome owners have been the status quo for 15 years, is this the one time they step back and says “Na, you got this.”

((spoiler alert, he didn’t.))
 
#36
This is interesting. I run a business and in business, you don't sweep mistakes under the rug and ignore them. Pretend they don't exist. Particularly when there are long term ramifications. Emotion plays no part. You are constantly looking to improve and learn from your mistakes. The definition of a mistake can be subjective yet as a practice, I regularly make a habit of tracking the results of decisions and weighing them vs our competitors.

Why would the NBA be any different?

Objectively speaking, passing on Luka was a highly questionable decision. Throw draft day emotion out the window and simply chart results from draft day until today. Luka has been a better player than anyone on the current Kings roster. In this case, it isn't simply Luka vs Bagley. It's the decision of bypassing building around Luka because Fox is considered the cornerstone. As of today, few, if any would choose Fox as a cornerstone over Luka.

Bypassing Luka was one of the most important decisions this franchise made spanning a multi-year period and the results impact the next decade. What business or those involved in such a business would decide that topic isn't worth discussing?

Why, if there was a potential massive screwup, would people not hold those responsible for the decision to answer to it?

The same people who passed on Luka, fired Joerger and are currently presiding over an 0-3 team which has lost by 25+ points twice, while none of the other 29 NBA teams combined have lost by 25 points once.

If this type of mismanagement, these red flags happen within my company or countless other private organizations, everything is put on the table and dissected.

But the fans of a team who haven't made the playoffs since '06 can't discuss a potential massive mistake, which is effecting the team here and now, on the main forums.

I'm generally amused that "I'm tired of hearing about Luka" is a valid argument.

The team hasn't made the playoffs since '06 and I'm sick of the repeat mismanagement appears like a more valid argument.
With these mismanagement any business would have bankrupt.
 
#38
I love Vlade overall, but he is not a good GM. What has he actually done? He drafted Fox, which was the obvious pick. Great.

Passed on Luka, fired Joerger, handed out mediocre contracts to vets who can't contribute anymore. The bad far outweighs the good and if this team doesn't drastically improve, and do it soon, then his head will be on the chopping block at the end of the season. I don't expect him to stand down like he said he would, but he has already committed multiple fireable offenses.

This is the Luka thread but the above cannot be separated from it, given that he made the decision. I shouldn't have to add this part but I'm sure I'll be told that this thread isn't about Vlade.
 
#39
Doncic becoming he who shall not be named is one level of strange.

I get the notion that misbehavior by a single individual doesn’t not need to be moderated in the open.

But, asking about the reasonableness of an admittedly ad hoc decision that impacts the posts and content of many because several members did not want to read fair criticism ... the mere talking about that choice in public is something that should get one sanctioned?

If the mods hastily decide we can no longer post or read about some other topic relevant to Kings basketball going forward ... not a single person can publicly ask “this is a thing?” That’s the new rule?

I think the choice to push all debate whether the Current GM botched the 2nd pick in the draft 18 months ago to the outer rim is pretty indefensible. The most widely held position on the board regarding that subject is somehow still “No!!” and I believe that a different response is relevant and at least up for debate at this point.

But the moderation yesterday was bonkers. That’s the real issue here. Some posts from others were shunted into this thread. Many of my posts, which were not vulgar, personal attacks or otherwise impermissible were quickly deleted. I said essentially “what” with brief comparisons to other NBA or Kings issue that would not be censored in any other forum. You’ll have to take my word on that because they were all deleted minutes later.

What happened yesterday was a group of displeased people silencing and hiding relevant conversations they simply didn’t want to see. The Kings are going to miss the playoffs for a 14 year, so I get why you are disappointed. If some of us want to talk about why the Kings continue to have problems, readers can and do regularly make their own decisions with being judicious with the content they select or using the ignore button.

Yesterday was strange, wrong, and ham fisted. Moreover the notion that this post violates the moderation policy here and warrants sanctions (which was threatened yesterday) is both wrong and nuts.
 
#40
Doncic becoming he who shall not be named is one level of strange.

I get the notion that misbehavior by a single individual doesn’t not need to be moderated in the open.

But, asking about the reasonableness of an admittedly ad hoc decision that impacts the posts and content of many because several members did not want to read fair criticism ... the mere talking about that choice in public is something that should get one sanctioned?

If the mods hastily decide we can no longer post or read about some other topic relevant to Kings basketball going forward ... not a single person can publicly ask “this is a thing?” That’s the new rule?

I think the choice to push all debate whether the Current GM botched the 2nd pick in the draft 18 months ago to the outer rim is pretty indefensible. The most widely held position on the board regarding that subject is somehow still “No!!” and I believe that a different response is relevant and at least up for debate at this point.

But the moderation yesterday was bonkers. That’s the real issue here. Some posts from others were shunted into this thread. Many of my posts, which were not vulgar, personal attacks or otherwise impermissible were quickly deleted. I said essentially “what” with brief comparisons to other NBA or Kings issue that would not be censored in any other forum. You’ll have to take my word on that because they were all deleted minutes later.

What happened yesterday was a group of displeased people silencing and hiding relevant conversations they simply didn’t want to see. The Kings are going to miss the playoffs for a 14 year, so I get why you are disappointed. If some of us want to talk about why the Kings continue to have problems, readers can and do regularly make their own decisions with being judicious with the content they select or using the ignore button.

Yesterday was strange, wrong, and ham fisted. Moreover the notion that this post violates the moderation policy here and warrants sanctions (which was threatened yesterday) is both wrong and nuts.
Actually this was about the rest of us who are tired of listening to the same story over and over, with no new information. We won't know for sure how good or bad the Bagley pick was for a couple of years. Obviously Doncic is doing better now and the Vlade is an Idiot story is really popular out there on social media. No one, including you, actually knows how the pick will turn out in the long run. Quit boring us and then playing the victim.
 
#41
Doncic becoming he who shall not be named is one level of strange.

I get the notion that misbehavior by a single individual doesn’t not need to be moderated in the open.

But, asking about the reasonableness of an admittedly ad hoc decision that impacts the posts and content of many because several members did not want to read fair criticism ... the mere talking about that choice in public is something that should get one sanctioned?

If the mods hastily decide we can no longer post or read about some other topic relevant to Kings basketball going forward ... not a single person can publicly ask “this is a thing?” That’s the new rule?

I think the choice to push all debate whether the Current GM botched the 2nd pick in the draft 18 months ago to the outer rim is pretty indefensible. The most widely held position on the board regarding that subject is somehow still “No!!” and I believe that a different response is relevant and at least up for debate at this point.

But the moderation yesterday was bonkers. That’s the real issue here. Some posts from others were shunted into this thread. Many of my posts, which were not vulgar, personal attacks or otherwise impermissible were quickly deleted. I said essentially “what” with brief comparisons to other NBA or Kings issue that would not be censored in any other forum. You’ll have to take my word on that because they were all deleted minutes later.

What happened yesterday was a group of displeased people silencing and hiding relevant conversations they simply didn’t want to see. The Kings are going to miss the playoffs for a 14 year, so I get why you are disappointed. If some of us want to talk about why the Kings continue to have problems, readers can and do regularly make their own decisions with being judicious with the content they select or using the ignore button.

Yesterday was strange, wrong, and ham fisted. Moreover the notion that this post violates the moderation policy here and warrants sanctions (which was threatened yesterday) is both wrong and nuts.
Kingsfans.com is definelty NOT a place for the free flow of information. Hasn’t been that in years. If you don’t tow the line of the mods and a certain group of posters here you are pigeon holed and belittled until you eventually leave.
I’ve always said that the best fan sites are the ones with the least amount of heavy handed moderation. The Kansas City chiefs forum comes to mind. As does the Seattle SEAHAWKS forum where only personal attacks get you banned.

The adherence to strict structure where every little subject has to have its own personal thread leads to posts disappearing and being banished to little visited parts of the site or just deleted all together. The heavy handed moderation leads to damn near 100% forced agreement amongst dam near all people who post at the game day thread. If you dare bring up certain things, we’ll GET OUTTA HERE WITH THAT NOISE! This is just a place to rah rah cheer on the team to the big win! No negativity allowed or certain people get really pissed. It makes KF’s a joke. Just visit other well managed sites to see how many people post there and just the enjoyment that flows through the threads.
All that said, I enjoy being here just to see how crazy moderated this place is. When those posts disappeared yesterday, I wasn’t surprised one bit. The group think is strong here and I want to see how bad it gets in this season that is shaping up to be an absolute train wreck. I’m counting down the days till luka gets here. My god this place is gonna be a s*** show.
 
#42
Actually this was about the rest of us who are tired of listening to the same story over and over, with no new information. We won't know for sure how good or bad the Bagley pick was for a couple of years. Obviously Doncic is doing better now and the Vlade is an Idiot story is really popular out there on social media. No one, including you, actually knows how the pick will turn out in the long run. Quit boring us and then playing the victim.
It’s actually pretty obvious to most objective people how this pick has already turned out. No need to wait.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#43
If you were to correctly state your new rule, you'd acknowledge there is no Luka discussion allowed in the main forums, as I pointed out. This isn't a main forum. Kings Rap is.
Any valuation of the forums on this message board, which does not recognize the #NBA folder as a "main" forum, is incorrect.

There's a distinction and you're severely limiting where the topic can be discussed.
Luka Doncic does not play for the Sacramento Kings, therefore discussion of Luka Doncic is not suited to the #KingsRap folder. Since we don't have a Dallas Mavericks subfolder, this is the correct place for Doncic discussion.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#44
Kingsfans.com is definelty NOT a place for the free flow of information. Hasn’t been that in years. If you don’t tow the line of the mods and a certain group of posters here you are pigeon holed and belittled until you eventually leave.
I’ve always said that the best fan sites are the ones with the least amount of heavy handed moderation...

Y'all know what this is, y'all know what it's been, and y'all know what it's gonna be. We ain't keeping you here.
 
#45
Y'all know what this is, y'all know what it's been, and y'all know what it's gonna be. We ain't keeping you here.
That's not a good thing though to just have more and more members leave (and new ones scared away.)

The job of moderators should be to keep discussion civil not to try to suppress views that they don't agree with.
 
#46
It’s actually pretty obvious to most objective people how this pick has already turned out. No need to wait.
That's exactly the point. Where do you get your truth? "Most objective people", from my point of view, just means that social media has already passed judgement on the trade. We all know that.

Doncic had pro experience when drafted while Bagley had one year of college. EVERYONE knew that Doncic would be better the first year. The fact that there are a lot of idiots out there who are having loads of fun trashing the Kings (wow, first time THAT ever happened) does not mean anything.

If you change your criterion to "knowledgeable basketball people" you will find that the jury's still out on whether or not it was a good trade.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#47
The job of moderators should be to keep discussion civil...
Among other things. One of those "other things" being to keep discussions on topic. Meaning that a thread about the Kings at Jazz should be kept to as close to being about the Kings at Jazz as possible.

This message board is compartmentalized for a reason. If we wanted to be like the old Bleacher Mob, where there was just one daily thread, and everything NBA related was posted inside, then that's what this place would look like. We don't think that it's an unreasonable ask to keep discussions about players not on the Kings out of #KingsRap. Obviously, there is a vocal minority who thinks otherwise, but it's up to them to adjust, not the other way around.

... not to try to suppress views that they don't agree with.
We're not suppressing "views." If we could be said to be "suppressing" anything (and I would argue that we are not), it's rhetoric.

You can express whatever views you like. You can't necessarily express your views in whatever thread you like, whatever manner you like.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#48
That's exactly the point. Where do you get your truth? "Most objective people", from my point of view, just means that social media has already passed judgement on the trade. We all know that.

Doncic had pro experience when drafted while Bagley had one year of college. EVERYONE knew that Doncic would be better the first year. The fact that there are a lot of idiots out there who are having loads of fun trashing the Kings (wow, first time THAT ever happened) does not mean anything.

If you change your criterion to "knowledgeable basketball people" you will find that the jury's still out on whether or not it was a good trade.
I'd be more interested in finding out how they are making the determination that most of the people who think it's "pretty obvious how the pick has turned out" are, in fact, objective? What is the metric for determining objectivity?
 
#49
That's exactly the point. Where do you get your truth? "Most objective people", from my point of view, just means that social media has already passed judgement on the trade. We all know that.

Doncic had pro experience when drafted while Bagley had one year of college. EVERYONE knew that Doncic would be better the first year. The fact that there are a lot of idiots out there who are having loads of fun trashing the Kings (wow, first time THAT ever happened) does not mean anything.

If you change your criterion to "knowledgeable basketball people" you will find that the jury's still out on whether or not it was a good trade.
God, you are so sensitive to what the national media types and other fans say about the Kings. Guess what, it's going to get ten times worse because this is going to be on the level of Oden or Darko barring a Doncic injury.

This isn't some hunchbacked caricature of the "other" cackling evilly and rubbing his hands waiting for the right opportunity to trash the Kings. More like Vlade did something stupid, and since stupid is as stupid does, they responded in kind by marveling at the sheer stupid of the stupid.

And Bagley's going to hardpressed to be as good as Doncic is right this second, let alone when they're both in their primes. The gap is gargantuan between the two. Knowledgeable basketball will tell you it's over; the jury's not still out. It's only still out if you're a Kings fan in denial.
 
#50
God, you are so sensitive to what the national media types and other fans say about the Kings. Guess what, it's going to get ten times worse because this is going to be on the level of Oden or Darko barring a Doncic injury.

This isn't some hunchbacked caricature of the "other" cackling evilly and rubbing his hands waiting for the right opportunity to trash the Kings. More like Vlade did something stupid, and since stupid is as stupid does, they responded in kind by marveling at the sheer stupid of the stupid.

And Bagley's going to hardpressed to be as good as Doncic is right this second, let alone when they're both in their primes. The gap is gargantuan between the two. Knowledgeable basketball will tell you it's over; the jury's not still out. It's only still out if you're a Kings fan in denial.
This is where we differ. You think it's already decided. I don't. There is insufficient evidence to determine who's right.

You misunderstand my POV - I'm just tired of having this forum polluted by the opinions of people who think they know a whole lot more about basketball than they actually do. Over-sensitive? I had a good laugh about that one.
 
#51
Actually this was about the rest of us who are tired of listening to the same story over and over, with no new information. We won't know for sure how good or bad the Bagley pick was for a couple of years. Obviously Doncic is doing better now and the Vlade is an Idiot story is really popular out there on social media. No one, including you, actually knows how the pick will turn out in the long run. Quit boring us and then playing the victim.

I'd be more interested in finding out how they are making the determination that most of the people who think it's "pretty obvious how the pick has turned out" are, in fact, objective? What is the metric for determining objectivity?
The determination is made from the data thats available. Their careers pre draft, a whole season in the Nba, their skillsets and how valuable they are in general ect.

VORP last season:
Doncic: 3,6 (19th)
Bagley: 0,1 (235th)

BPM last season:
Doncic: 4,1 (22nd)
Bagley: -1,8 (151st)

RPM last season:
Doncic: 1,29 (86th)
Bagley: -3,65 (477th)

The value of their role/skillset:
Doncic is a ball handling creator (most valuable role) and a wing (most valuable position). Bagley is mostly a play finnishing big man (a lot easier to find in the open market) that is not a great defender (defense is much more important for bigs).

Also Doncic was a very productive player on higher level than college basketball so basically everything we know indicates that he should've been the pick. Then theres stuff like this:

JJJ has an elite skill (defense) what elite skill does bagley have? It certainly isn't defense. The chance of him becoming an elite offensive player are slim to none also. The only players that are high impact game altering offensive players A. Create shots for themselves B. Create shots for others. B is out of the question, it's extremely rare for a big and Bagley has not shown the chops. As far as creating offense for himself, post offense is inefficient.

In fact, offense creation is the domain of wings and guards. Very, very few “bigs” can be high impact offensive game changers because they cannot create for themselves and they usually cannot create for others. There is historical proof of this.

—In NBA history having a Box Plus/Minus (OBPM) of +5 is the mark of an elite offensive player and +6 is the domain of the game changing offensive players. There have been 243 individual seasons in which a player has posted a Box +/- of +5 or higher and only 116 in which a player has had a +6 season.

Here are all the non wings/guards to have a Box Plus/Minus season of +6 or higher

Barkley 4 times, Shaq 2, KAJ 1, KLove 1, DROB, Jokic, Karl Malone. That’s only 11 out of 116 times or about 9.5% of all such player seasons.
If you look at all the bigs who had a Box +/- of +5 or higher, you wind up with a total 32 out of 243 or about 13.2% of all such player seasons.

Wings and guards have created the best offense (especially since 1980) but teams just didn’t know it. The highest all time OBPM for non wings and guards is Barkley at #13 and #21 all time. This was when he was in Philly and played like a big since he had far fewer assists than those at the top of this list. Kareem at #36 is the highest ranking traditional Big big.

The story is the same for offensive RPM.

2018: 16 players over +3 (Jokic and KAT the only bigs), 10 Over +4 (Jokic the only big), 5 Over +5 (ZERO bigs), 2 Over +6 (ZERO bigs).

2017: 24 players over +3, ( Blake, KAT, BOOGIE, Jokic), 14 over +4 (Jokic), 7 over +5 (ZERO bigs), 4 over +6 (ZERO bigs), 1 Over +7 (ZERO bigs)

2016: 16 players over +3 (Jokic), 9 over +4 (ZERO bigs), 7 over +5 (ZERO bigs), 4 over +6 (ZERO bigs), 2 over +7 (ZERO bigs)

2015: 22 players over +3 (LMA, AD), 13 over +4, (ZERO bigs), 5 over +6 (ZERO bigs), 3 over +7 (ZERO bigs). 1 Over +8 (ZERO bigs)

2014: 24 players over +3 (Ryno, Love, dirk, Frye), 13 over +4 (Dirk), 6 over +5 (ZERO bigs), 4 over +6 (ZERO bigs), 1 Over +8 (ZERO bigs)

ORPM TOTALS from 2014–2018: There’s never been a big with an ORPM over 5.

+3 ORPM: 92 player seasons overall, only 13 bigs (14.1%)
+4 ORPM: 59 player seasons overall, 3 bigs (5.1%)
+5 ORPM: 33 player seasons overall, ZERO bigs
+6 ORPM: 19 player seasons overall, ZERO bigs
+7 ORPM: 7 player seasons overall, ZERO bigs
+8: ORPM: 2 player seasons overall, ZERO bigs


A big HAS to become a defensive force to become a game changer because he won’t be on offense. A guy like KAT who can post (least useful in today’s game) and shoot like a guard (look at his %s on open threes) is going to cap out at a +4ish on offense unless he can create for others which seems unlikely. A guy like Jokic is a +4 to +5 Player on offense because of his passing ability. KAT isn’t a defensive anchor but is actually a liability relative to other centers. If KAT were a better defensive player, he’d be a top 3-5 player.
At least IMO you can say based on all this knowledge, its objectively the case that this draft was a mistake for us. When people say that combining all the data available passing on Luka was a mistake, its not some knee jerk lol kings reaction. I would say that this point of view has pretty strong argument behind it.
 
#52
The determination is made from the data thats available. Their careers pre draft, a whole season in the Nba, their skillsets and how valuable they are in general ect.

VORP last season:
Doncic: 3,6 (19th)
Bagley: 0,1 (235th)

BPM last season:
Doncic: 4,1 (22nd)
Bagley: -1,8 (151st)

RPM last season:
Doncic: 1,29 (86th)
Bagley: -3,65 (477th)

The value of their role/skillset:
Doncic is a ball handling creator (most valuable role) and a wing (most valuable position). Bagley is mostly a play finnishing big man (a lot easier to find in the open market) that is not a great defender (defense is much more important for bigs).

Also Doncic was a very productive player on higher level than college basketball so basically everything we know indicates that he should've been the pick. Then theres stuff like this:



At least IMO you can say based on all this knowledge, its objectively the case that this draft was a mistake for us. When people say that combining all the data available passing on Luka was a mistake, its not some knee jerk lol kings reaction. I would say that this point of view has pretty strong argument behind it.
To put the advanced stats in perpective, Bjelica is at 0.1 VORP already this season
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#53
The determination is made from the data thats available. Their careers pre draft, a whole season in the Nba, their skillsets and how valuable they are in general ect.
That's not an answer to the question I asked. Those number support the claim that the pick was "obvious," they do not prove that the people who made the claim were objective, which is what I wanted to know. All they prove is that people can be biased, and still get it "right."
 
#54
That's not an answer to the question I asked. Those number support the claim that the pick was "obvious," they do not prove that the people who made the claim were objective, which is what I wanted to know. All they prove is that people can be biased, and still get it "right."
The people that now think that the pick was wrong can call themselves objective since they have a lot of data to support that argument. Aka they are basing their opinion on the facts they have available. To me thats being objective.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#55
The people that now think that the pick was wrong can call themselves objective since they have a lot of data to support that argument. Aka they are basing their opinion on the facts they have available. To me thats being objective.
Except that not all of them actually based their opinion on those aforementioned facts. Not all of them waited until they had that data before saying that the pick was wrong, which means that they may or may not have been starting from a biased origin point. Which, in turn, means, if they are now proclaiming themselves to be objective, ex post facto, they are being disingenuous.
 
#56
Except that not all of them actually based their opinion on those aforementioned facts. Not all of them waited until they had that data before saying that the pick was wrong, which means that they may or may not have been starting from a biased origin point. Which, in turn, means, if they are now proclaiming themselves to be objective, ex post facto, they are being disingenuous.
I cant say how every person in here forms their opinions but I think its pretty irrelevant in this context wether the person that now is "correct" with his opinion originally formed his opinion with using the right data. The more relevant thing is if you are saying that we didnt made a mistake and you argue against all this data, then its very hard for you to be objective especially as a fan of the Kings.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
#57
Doncic becoming he who shall not be named is one level of strange.
This, of course, has not happened. Far from being "he who shall not be named", Luka Doncic has his very own thread (he had one last year, too - it was one of the longest threads in the history of Kingsfans.com). There is a difference between banning discussion of a topic and preventing a large number of different discussions from being diverted to the same topic. We have done the latter.

But, asking about the reasonableness of an admittedly ad hoc decision that impacts the posts and content of many because several members did not want to read fair criticism
By "ad hoc" I assume you mean "arbitrary". It's easy to consider a decision arbitrary if you don't agree with it. This decision was not only not arbitrary, it wasn't even new:

Forum Rules:
...
6. Kingsfans.com is organized into threads by topic. Whether posting a new thread in a forum or a reply to an existing thread, please stay on topic. No one wants to sort through numerous off-topic posts and/or threads to follow the forum discussions. During the off-season, there is more leniency with regards to posting off-topic threads but during the season this rule will be enforced more strictly. On occasion, moderators will split sub-topics out of a thread into a new one to differentiate between subjects.
And again, "...decision that impacts the posts and content of SEVERAL because MANY members did not want to read INCESSANT COMPLAINTS ABOUT THE SAME TOPIC" would be more accurate.

... the mere talking about that choice in public is something that should get one sanctioned? If the mods hastily decide we can no longer post or read about some other topic relevant to Kings basketball going forward ... not a single person can publicly ask “this is a thing?” That’s the new rule?
In this case, the decision was not hasty, it was over a year in the making. The mods did not decide to prevent the posting, or the reading (my goodness!) of any topic, and the topic that is being confined to this thread is hardly relevant to Kings basketball going forward, as Luka Doncic is not a member of the Kings, and is not likely to be one in the foreseeable future. You're overdramatizing what was done. In fact, this is a habit of yours. You frequently overdramatize moderation decisions and derail threads because you are intent on debating the moderators over daring to moderate. Note that this is also NOT a new rule:

Forum Rules:
...
11. ... If you have a disagreement with a moderator, discuss it with them in a private conversation. Do not use the main board to air your disagreement.
Your posts yesterday were dealt with swiftly because you are a frequent violator of this rule.

I think the choice to push all debate whether the Current GM botched the 2nd pick in the draft 18 months ago to the outer rim is pretty indefensible.
I am not surprised you think that, but again, read Rule #6.

But the moderation yesterday was bonkers. That’s the real issue here. Some posts from others were shunted into this thread. Many of my posts, which were not vulgar, personal attacks or otherwise impermissible were quickly deleted. I said essentially “what” with brief comparisons to other NBA or Kings issue that would not be censored in any other forum. You’ll have to take my word on that because they were all deleted minutes later.
Your quickly-deleted posts were not only disrespectful but also impermissible by Rule #11, which you can see above. As I have said, you are known to frequently violate Rule #11, which is why your posts were given no quarter at all. One would think that when your complaint about the moderation was deleted once you would get the picture, rather than continue to post it over and over again. You have had plenty of experience with this. For the record, I have been a member of at least one board that was far less tolerant of questioning the moderation than we are here. The idea that your posts yesterday would not have been deleted in any other forum is comical - I would guess they would have been deleted from about half of the boards I have been a member of.

What happened yesterday was a group of displeased people silencing and hiding relevant conversations they simply didn’t want to see. ... Yesterday was strange, wrong, and ham fisted.
This is nonsense, not least because the conversations were NOT particularly relevant. These were not conversations on the line of "Vlade is a poor evaluator of talent and should be replaced", they were incessantly repeated whinges about Luka Doncic not being a King. They had become tiresome long ago, and they are no longer going to be derailing game threads, or threads like the one on Marvin Bagley's injury.

This is not silencing or hiding discussion, it is not a matter of deleting opinions that the moderators don't agree with or wish not to see, and no matter how often you seem to think so, this is not a grave assault upon your personal liberties.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#58
I cant say how every person in here forms their opinions but I think its pretty irrelevant in this context wether the person that now is "correct" with his opinion originally formed his opinion with using the right data. The more relevant thing is if you are saying that we didnt made a mistake and you argue against all this data, then its very hard for you to be objective especially as a fan of the Kings.
Well, I'm not a fan of the Kings, so I'm not particularly preoccupied with whether the Kings made a mistake. I am only talking about this in the macro, vis-à-vis whether an opinion that was originally made with bias can retroactively be declared as objective, if future events validate the opinion?
 
#59
Well, I'm not a fan of the Kings, so I'm not particularly preoccupied with whether the Kings made a mistake. I am only talking about this in the macro, vis-à-vis whether an opinion that was originally made with bias can retroactively be declared as objective, if future events validate the opinion?
Tell me if I'm getting this correctly. So basically you are saying that people in here that are saying that passing on Luka was a mistake, are biased and not objective because they thought that already pre draft? What if they already had formed their opinion based on the data and information available and it just proved to be correct and now they continue arguing the facts that they have?
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#60
Tell me if I'm getting this correctly. So basically you are saying that people in here that are saying that passing on Luka was a mistake, are biased and not objective because they thought that already pre draft?
What I am saying is that declaring a player to be a bad NBA pick, before seeing him play in the NBA, is a biased statement. The only thing that can actually tell you what a player will look like in the NBA is playing in the NBA. Any projections based on anything other than that are, at best, a semi-educated guess. Granted, there are many people in the sports business who are paid exorbitant sums of money, based on their ability to make educated guesses, but that doesn't mean that their guesses aren't rooted in biases.

More to the point, I don't subscribe to the belief that a pick is bad, just because you could have gotten a better player. The Kings passing on Kawhi Leonard to get Jimmer Fredette wasn't a bad pick because Kawhi Leonard is great, it was a bad pick because Jimmer Fredette is bad. Likewise, the Kings passing on Damian Lillard to draft Thomas Robinson wasn't a bad pick because Damian Lillard is great, it was a bad pick because Thomas Robinson is bad. Is Marvin Bagley bad? It doesn't seem so, but it's too soon to tell, either way. If Bagley turns out to be a great player, then he wasn't a bad pick, even if Doncic is better.

Now, bigs tend to have a steeper learning curve than wings (see also: Andre Drummond, Jusuf Nurkic, Nikola Jokic), so I'm not prepared to call Bagley a bad pick... but, in the interest of full disclosure, I also don't have any "skin" in the "game," and it's not going to mean anything to me, even if he is one. I remain more interested in the macro conversation of whether someone can be retroactively declared objective, because an initially biased opinion ended up being validated by future events? I don't think that it can, but you appear to disagree.