The ONE AND ONLY Luka Doncic discussion thread

#93
Doncic has been a professional athlete for a long time. He has stepped right in and played well. Last night he was really good.

Bagley is a freakish athlete that is what 20 years old? He is going to take some time to figure out how to use all of that God given talent. He needs to grow some more, but what he really needs is to learn to make better decisions. He is going to be a great player, but it will take longer than for Doncic.
That is BIG IFs vs. PROVEN.
 
#94
At the end of last year majority of us were persuaded that Bagley would develop into a Max player. Yes Doncic was more advanced, but we could squint a little and see Bagley passing him one day in the superstar rankings.

As disappointing as the start of this year has been, that still holds true. Although the Gap between Luka and Bagley is growing, to be fair we haven't gotten a true tast for Bagleys year to year development yet.

Money would be still be overwhelmingly bet that Luka will maintain the lead in player ranking, AT LEAST, from a historical kings fan viewpoint, we didn't end up with another Thomas Robinson
 
#95
At the end of last year majority of us were persuaded that Bagley would develop into a Max player. Yes Doncic was more advanced, but we could squint a little and see Bagley passing him one day in the superstar rankings.

As disappointing as the start of this year has been, that still holds true. Although the Gap between Luka and Bagley is growing, to be fair we haven't gotten a true tast for Bagleys year to year development yet.

Money would be still be overwhelmingly bet that Luka will maintain the lead in player ranking, AT LEAST, from a historical kings fan viewpoint, we didn't end up with another Thomas Robinson
JT? Coke machine? Okafor?
 
#96
At the end of last year majority of us were persuaded that Bagley would develop into a Max player. Yes Doncic was more advanced, but we could squint a little and see Bagley passing him one day in the superstar rankings.

As disappointing as the start of this year has been, that still holds true. Although the Gap between Luka and Bagley is growing, to be fair we haven't gotten a true tast for Bagleys year to year development yet.

Money would be still be overwhelmingly bet that Luka will maintain the lead in player ranking, AT LEAST, from a historical kings fan viewpoint, we didn't end up with another Thomas Robinson
The only scenario I can picture where Bagley turns out to be better than Doncic is if Bagley miraculously develops into the Greek freak. Other than that, there's no big man other than Jokic that's as valuable as these wings that can go out there and put up triple doubles on a nightly basis. These players that put up the numbers Doncic is putting up are the players that lead their teams deep into the playoffs in the NBA. Even skilled big men like A.D., who is basically Bagley's ceiling, are not as effective as the triple double machines.
 
#98
Would you rather have Ben Simmons than Anthony Davis? He's a "triple double machine."
Yeah I think I would. Big men just don't have the impact they used to. To me, they're the running backs of the NBA while the triple double guys are the franchise QBs. Simmons can't shoot but he scores 2s efficiently. A.D. is an ok shooter but doesn't stretch the floor a ton. They both rebound. Both play defense. A.D. has the edge in blocks but Simmons makes his teammates better by being one of the best playmakers in the league. These days that's more important or at least it seems that way when looking at the players that lead their teams into the playoffs.
 
I love Vlade overall, but he is not a good GM. What has he actually done? He drafted Fox, which was the obvious pick. Great.

Passed on Luka, fired Joerger, handed out mediocre contracts to vets who can't contribute anymore. The bad far outweighs the good and if this team doesn't drastically improve, and do it soon, then his head will be on the chopping block at the end of the season. I don't expect him to stand down like he said he would, but he has already committed multiple fireable offenses.

This is the Luka thread but the above cannot be separated from it, given that he made the decision. I shouldn't have to add this part but I'm sure I'll be told that this thread isn't about Vlade.

Yeah, it started with the Sixers trade years ago dealing a 1st round pick for nothing that people for some reason felt wasn't a big deal at the time. Got next to no value from a majority of our 1st round picks during his tenure (WCS walked after rookie deal, Papa, Malachi, JJ gone after 1.5 years, Skal gone after 2.5 years.) Whiffed on Frank Mason as a high 2nd, traded out of the 2nd round completely in 2018. Gave up 8 spots of draft equity in the 2nd for literal cash.

Used absolutely none of our extensive available cap space the last 4 years on acquiring future assets, instead spending it on the likes of George Hill, Carter, ZBO and most recently spending near 60 million on Barnes/Ariza/Dedmon/Joseph. That's an insane amount of money for a bunch of solid, slightly above average (Ariza excluded) players.

And Bagley and Luka will always be linked just because of how much promise Luka is showing at such a young age. Bagley won't be able to escape the comp if Luka goes to be a HoF and Bagley is just "good".

Regardless, we're seeing the lack of foresight start to play out now
 
Yeah, it started with the Sixers trade years ago dealing a 1st round pick for nothing that people for some reason felt wasn't a big deal at the time. Got next to no value from a majority of our 1st round picks during his tenure (WCS walked after rookie deal, Papa, Malachi, JJ gone after 1.5 years, Skal gone after 2.5 years.) Whiffed on Frank Mason as a high 2nd, traded out of the 2nd round completely in 2018. Gave up 8 spots of draft equity in the 2nd for literal cash.

Used absolutely none of our extensive available cap space the last 4 years on acquiring future assets, instead spending it on the likes of George Hill, Carter, ZBO and most recently spending near 60 million on Barnes/Ariza/Dedmon/Joseph. That's an insane amount of money for a bunch of solid, slightly above average (Ariza excluded) players.

And Bagley and Luka will always be linked just because of how much promise Luka is showing at such a young age. Bagley won't be able to escape the comp if Luka goes to be a HoF and Bagley is just "good".

Regardless, we're seeing the lack of foresight start to play out now
Well, you omitted the cheap contracts of Bjelica and Holmes. I think he did a reasonable job with FAs. Inflated contracts are short term, for players that were supposed to stabilize the team without blocking the development of the young core. I agree that his draft record is poor. Now, he has Dumars to help him draft next Milicic ;)
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
Basically throw any average guy out there. Stars dont have the impact at the position to put value on it.
I feel like impact is dictated by coaching, but that could just be me; if you have a big with elite talent, and you can't win with him/he doesn't "make an impact," I put that fault on the management that put the team together, and the coach tasked with making it work, not the big.

I don't know how football works, but I will never be convinced that "You have to play like X, you need Y kind of player" is the way basketball needs to be played. There is no "According to Hoyle" way to win at basketball; in basketball, you can win just about any style, if your coach is good enough. Whether or not you can stop how the other team gets theirs is way more important than how you get yours.
 
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... Sorry for not getting your football reference??? Everything I know about football, I gleaned through osmosis; not a fan.
You could just ask what I meant by it. Not sure what the attitude is about, but we'll move past it.

As far as the football reference goes, lets say you have 3 running backs and they are given the grades of an A, B and a C based on their skill levels. They've found that the A level running back doesn't make a huge impact on the game over the C level running back. These days they're starting to let running backs fall further and further down the draft because their on field impact isn't worth using a top 10 pick on for the most part because you can get a guy in the 3rd round that will do almost as good a job as that guy that's talented enough to go in the top 10.

Quarterbacks are a different story. The difference in an A level QB and a C level QB could be a 12-4 record or a 7-9 record. The A level QBs are all sought after in the top 10 because they can nearly single-handedly change the course of your franchise by their level of play.

To me, Doncic is the franchise QB. He runs the offense by creating for himself and others. Not only is his own level of play at a high level but he makes his teammates play at a higher level with the skills he possesses. Bagley is the running back. He can give you big games but he can't carry you throughout the season because his position doesn't allow for it. You really have to play like Jokic in order to get that type of impact out of the position and nothing about Bagley that we've seen so far tells us that 10 assist games will ever be the norm for him.

He may have big games like A.D. had last night but everyone knows that team is led by the franchise QB in LeBron, while A.D. is basically just the Robin to his Batman because he can't run the offense from his position with his skills.
 
You win with talent, and the Kings took the less talented player that “fit” their team.
It's 4 games into season 2 so lots can change in time but I think what is frustrating me right now is Dallas gave away the farm for this pick and then traded more farm for damaged goods and I shook my head but so far it's working. Of course KP can go down at any time and it all falls apart but right now that's got me saltier than anything, the feeling we got leapfrogged by a team making questionable decisions.

That and Bagley having logged lots of injury time, something I wasn't expecting from the best pure athlete pick blah blah. If he actually misses 6 weeks to an injury on his off hand please help me.
 
Trading the farm for Doncic wasn’t a questionable decision. Outright skippping him was.

KP is a giant question, however.
No, I agree.

And to a certain extent if we weren't going to pick him (which I think I will be able to live with when Bagley gets back on the court and we start winning some games); I will always be somewhat mystified we didn't do what Atlanta did and make Dallas pay.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
No, I agree.

And to a certain extent if we weren't going to pick him (which I think I will be able to live with when Bagley gets back on the court and we start winning some games); I will always be somewhat mystified we didn't do what Atlanta did and make Dallas pay.
That’s because Vlade isn’t actually great at his job. Like at all.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
You could just ask what I meant by it. Not sure what the attitude is about, but we'll move past it.
"Whatever that means" was me asking what you meant by it. You read attitude into that.


As far as the football reference goes, lets say you have 3 running backs and they are given the grades of an A, B and a C based on their skill levels. They've found that the A level running back doesn't make a huge impact on the game over the C level running back. These days they're starting to let running backs fall further and further down the draft because their on field impact isn't worth using a top 10 pick on for the most part because you can get a guy in the 3rd round that will do almost as good a job as that guy that's talented enough to go in the top 10.

Quarterbacks are a different story. The difference in an A level QB and a C level QB could be a 12-4 record or a 7-9 record. The A level QBs are all sought after in the top 10 because they can nearly single-handedly change the course of your franchise by their level of play.

To me, Doncic is the franchise QB. He runs the offense by creating for himself and others. Not only is his own level of play at a high level but he makes his teammates play at a higher level with the skills he possesses. Bagley is the running back. He can give you big games but he can't carry you throughout the season because his position doesn't allow for it. You really have to play like Jokic in order to get that type of impact out of the position and nothing about Bagley that we've seen so far tells us that 10 assist games will ever be the norm for him.
I'll take your word for it that that's how it is in football. I'm not willing to accept that as axiom in basketball. It's just a bunch of uncreative general managers and uncreative coaches: we're nearly two decades into the Analytics Era, and dozens of people have gotten paid millions of dollars, and had access to the most sophisticated data and technology in the history of sports science, and they still haven't figured out anything more advanced, with all of that information, than "three is more than two." That's a lack of imagination. I don't accept that "you have to have X" in order to win in basketball, the NBA is just a copycat league. LeBron wins, and the takeaway becomes, "You need a guy who plays like LeBron to win!" People didn't think that a team whose best player was a point guard could win a championship, until the Warriors did it, and now teams think you need a high-level point guard to win. Nothing works, until it does.

I don't question the value that a player like Doncic can bring to a basketball team, I never have. What I challenge is the notion that players who don't play like that can't make a similar impact. That's just lazy coaching/analysis, in my opinion.
 
That’s because Vlade isn’t actually great at his job. Like at all.
Overall I would grade him a B, but that includes all the people down chain who advise him as well. Sacramento is a tough job and we seemed to be on track. I'm not in panic mode I'm just more in WTF how long until our guys can play and will it cost us a shot again?