Starting lineup going forward - Fox, Buddy, Bogs, Barnes, WCS

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#91
If Joerger is going to roll with this lineup tonight I can see Bogdan getting eaten alive by George. They'll probably stick Barnes on PG13 but even so, when forced to switch Bogi isn't going to be able to handle PG, let alone Jerami Grant who is a very athletic and a much, much improved player. WCS will have his hands full with the monster that is Steven Adams.

I'm guessing Bagley will be the first sub in, relegating Barnes to SF duty which helps. But Bagley hasn't exactly been a force on the defensive end.

I just don't like the matchups tonight apart from Fox/Westbrook and Hield/Ferguson.
 
#92
Dude I don’t hate Joeger. I don’t like his handling of our young bigs (especially Giles). But I was coming around until this move.

And unlike you, I posted metrics like True Shooting Percentage, Rebound Percentage, Net Rating, 3 Point Percentage and Pie to show why this move makes no sense. What data do you have to show this move will be effective?

What is bothersome about the rainbows and sunshine crowd is their method of invalidating a point is generally not to show data why another view makes sense. Instead it’s to attack the messenger and state how somehow they don’t support the Kings.
The only relevant data to me are W/L percentage. that's all I care about. The rest is for video games/fantasy gamblers.

Right now with the new lineup we are 0-1 but I think it is too early to judge.
 
#94
If Joerger is going to roll with this lineup tonight I can see Bogdan getting eaten alive by George. They'll probably stick Barnes on PG13 but even so, when forced to switch Bogi isn't going to be able to handle PG, let alone Jerami Grant who is a very athletic and a much, much improved player. WCS will have his hands full with the monster that is Steven Adams.

I'm guessing Bagley will be the first sub in, relegating Barnes to SF duty which helps. But Bagley hasn't exactly been a force on the defensive end.

I just don't like the matchups tonight apart from Fox/Westbrook and Hield/Ferguson.
We have matched up well with OKC in previous match-ups.
 
#95
There are some people that are quite stubborn and seem to believe players/coaches/front office/owners are above any criticism. Any flaw pointed out means you hate them or want them gone. Is joerger doing a good/great job over all? Yes. Does he make bone head moves or do stuff that can pee you off. Also a yes. Nobody is perfect and when he does something you think isn't right, it's fine to point out out.
It is not that there should be no criticism. But... to negate his W/L accomplishment takes a really serious bias to say with a straight face and that is what tees me of about this particular thread.

And going back to the Adelman days, I've never cared much for second-guessing of a coach's rotation from the peanut gallery - whether it is Aaron Bruski or a random fan. And I know coaches don't care much for it either - Karl, Popovic, Adelman, Joerger etc... none of them will ever give the time of day to a reporter who busts their chops over rotation or player minutes.
 
#97
Thread maybe needs to be retitled - because it is basically a one man "I hate Joerger" show. Full of absolutes from a person who apparently has current NBA coaches as personal buddies who secretly agree with him over beers. Because I haven't seen any quotes from NBA coaches this year about Joerger other than "he's doing a hell of a job" or... "he's doing an excpetional job" or.. "he's doing a really great job". I haven't seen a quote from another NBA coach that would suggest "oh with the stockpile of young talent he inherited he's running about par". I would like to see them. I would like to see which NBA coach would claim an ability to do better. One, single, example.

The Joerger hate is so random I just wonder if he was rude to somebody in traffic and their revenge is to post repetitive negative stuff about him on twitter and message boards. We have not had a good coach since Adelman (not counting Karl because I don't think he had a fair chance to run the team... just imagine if they had let him trade prime Boogie back when he wanted to). Now we have one, sniffing the playoffs with a team national press deemed the dregs of the league, likely to finish dead last - and there are posters who assign childish motivations to him (he just LOOOVES some certain mediocre player irrationally) and assume he has the most simplistic thought processes.

Nobody remembers Dave saying "this is a three year process" right after the Boogie trade? It seemed somewhat obvious to me that last year was an 82 game training camp where vets teach youth about toughness grit and fundamentals - this year was about playing young and fast and getting their feet under them - and next year will be about serious contending.

I like the starting lineup and am anxious to see it play out. And I admit 100% that I am biased. I love Dave Joerger and Vlade Divac. I'm rooting for them to shove it down their detractors' throats. So I'm not objective.
Whole heartedly agree. Kings, Vlade and Joeger had a plan beginning with the Cousins trade and they have stuck with it. It’s bearing fruit.They did not just suddenly see the light this season and come around to their detractor’s way of thinking this season. Everything was all part of the plan, not to say they haven’t been flexible and made adjustments to the plan along the way.

Let me begin by saying that I have thoroughly enjoyed the Kings as a team this year. Unfortunately, this site, not so much. I was optimistic at the end of last season about the team and I also hoped that as the team got better the forum would get better and the negativity would, if not go away, at least substantially decrease. The team has way exceeded my expectations, but the forum has under-performed. The forum was a mess at the end of last year, just dominated by a soured, constantly negative, entitled, conspiracy touting, handful of posters. Unfortunately, there is still a lot of negativity here.

They like to say it’s a message board and that it’s there for discussion. But it doesn’t seem like discussion to me, seems like the same handful are just looking for something to be constantly whining, complaining, belly-aching about.

Those kinds of people remind me of the kind of people you attend a movie with, a movie that you really enjoyed, an award-winning movie as judged by their peers, but all these people do is tell you how wrong you were to enjoy the movie. Even though they have never been in a move, directed a movie, produced a movie, never had an acting class, don’t have a degree in cinema or the arts, probably never even performed in a 3rd grade play. But nevertheless, they are self-proclaimed experts and proceed to constantly and loudly criticize the acting, the plot, even the musical score, because it’s what they do. Everything is negative with them because that is the way they demonstrate their“ superior knowledge” to everyone. They are “in the know” about such things, while you are naïve and foolish not to see how smart they are. I avoid those kinds of people every chance I get.

I used to get frustrated with that on here and take periodic vacations from the site. But I am a Kings fan, and I hunger for any and all information that pertains to the Kings, so I would give in to temptation and browse again. There are some good comments and threads on here and I enjoy those, but sooner or later almost every thread degenerates into negativity.

I was advised to use the Ignore function and I finally did, but with some misgivings. It’s not a block function, it does not prevent them from seeing your posts, commenting on your posts, quoting and misrepresenting your posts, and you won’t know if they do because you don’t see their posts. But, I finally did it, I currently have 8 people on ignore (8 out of 2717 members), 7 because of their constant negative complaining, singling out individual players or coach for constant attacks, and then one because he is just bat crap crazy.

Cleaned up the threads a lot, but they sure have a lot of holes in them because they are prolific. After this thread and yesterday’s game thread with all the unnecessary drama, looks like I left a few off. Now, I am sure I am going to get roundly criticized, but, ha, ha, I won’t know it!
 
#98
have a great day. they lost to the two best teams in the west, on the road, by one basket per game. bye
Have you seen me complain about losing to either team? Nope. You said win/lost results with the small ball line-up and posted incorrect data. I’m hopeful it isn’t 0-3 but I’m very concerned about the small ball line-up against OKC.

Don’t be mad at me if your facts are wrong.
 
#99
I've mentioned before that I dislike this lineup immensely but I'm willing to give it a few games before I decide to outright bash it.

I'm just disappointed that we finally filled our SF gap and especially size/length issue, and now we are going back to the small ball lineup.

But like I said, I'll try and reserve judgement a little bit until I see how we perform on the court.
 
I've mentioned before that I dislike this lineup immensely but I'm willing to give it a few games before I decide to outright bash it.

I'm just disappointed that we finally filled our SF gap and especially size/length issue, and now we are going back to the small ball lineup.

But like I said, I'll try and reserve judgement a little bit until I see how we perform on the court.
I would be more inclined to give it time if the next 3 games weren’t critical to making the play-offs. If we go 0-3 against @OKC, @Minn, and Clippers playing this line-up we are very unlikely to hit 45 wins.
 
As long as we see major minutes with a front court of Barnes, Bagley and Giles/WCS I am OK if the starting unit is small. But for a good portion of the games I prefer a full size lineup.
 
0-2. Joeger went with small ball at the end against Denver.
First, they didn't start small against Denver (which was the point). All teams play small at some point of the game.
Second, they went small in the 4th because they had no choice. WCS had 5 fouls, Giles fouled out & Kosta was getting killed out there. If they bring back WCS too soon and he picks up his 6th foul, the game would've been over.
 
I think Brewer will eventually fall out. Yes he is a defensive pest, but his over zealousness is part of the reason we were in the penalty early in the 4th vs Warriors. His career (and season) shooting percentages are not good at all and I think once he reverts to that he will not stay on the floor.

As far as Bjelica goes, I think he contributes more than his shooting percentage as he rebounds at a close rate to Bagley and offers good defense inside agains bigger guys. His weakness is faster PFs who can shoot the 3, especially with the rule changes, but there are plenty of matchups he can play. For example, I think he could have guarded Green by giving him space (although Green was shooting well in the last game).
Today I wouldn't mind seeing his small ball lineup since they use grant at the 4 and Barnes matches up better against him than bjeli. But bjeli is usable againat certain lineups
 
If Joerger is going to roll with this lineup tonight I can see Bogdan getting eaten alive by George. They'll probably stick Barnes on PG13 but even so, when forced to switch Bogi isn't going to be able to handle PG, let alone Jerami Grant who is a very athletic and a much, much improved player. WCS will have his hands full with the monster that is Steven Adams.

I'm guessing Bagley will be the first sub in, relegating Barnes to SF duty which helps. But Bagley hasn't exactly been a force on the defensive end.

I just don't like the matchups tonight apart from Fox/Westbrook and Hield/Ferguson.
PG is averaging almost 40 PPG (38.4) in the last 10. He is eating everyone alive. hopefully we can keep him under that average.
 
Today I wouldn't mind seeing his small ball lineup since they use grant at the 4 and Barnes matches up better against him than bjeli. But bjeli is usable againat certain lineups
Bjelica played about 20 minutes per game in the previous 3 vs OKC. Although he might be out of the rotation completely we shall see tongiht..
 
First, they didn't start small against Denver (which was the point). All teams play small at some point of the game.
Second, they went small in the 4th because they had no choice. WCS had 5 fouls, Giles fouled out & Kosta was getting killed out there. If they bring back WCS too soon and he picks up his 6th foul, the game would've been over.
That’s a fair point but it doesn’t negate the point the line-up was not successful. Nor does it answer why not come back with Beli who was shooting 46% from 3.

If Bogi and Barnes were shooting well, I would have no argument. But they just aren’t. Generally by going small you hope to spread the floor with better shooters.

The line-up didn’t work the last two games. Per John’s point no one expected us to win either game. But, Joeger is making this change at a critical stretch. The data doesn’t really support this change. If we lose the next 3, it’s on Joeger.
 
That’s a fair point but it doesn’t negate the point the line-up was not successful. Nor does it answer why not come back with Beli who was shooting 46% from 3.

If Bogi and Barnes were shooting well, I would have no argument. But they just aren’t. Generally by going small you hope to spread the floor with better shooters.

The line-up didn’t work the last two games. Per John’s point no one expected us to win either game. But, Joeger is making this change at a critical stretch. The data doesn’t really support this change. If we lose the next 3, it’s on Joeger.
Losses are on Joeger but wins are not. Hmmm...
 
That’s a fair point but it doesn’t negate the point the line-up was not successful. Nor does it answer why not come back with Beli who was shooting 46% from 3.

If Bogi and Barnes were shooting well, I would have no argument. But they just aren’t. Generally by going small you hope to spread the floor with better shooters.

The line-up didn’t work the last two games. Per John’s point no one expected us to win either game. But, Joeger is making this change at a critical stretch. The data doesn’t really support this change. If we lose the next 3, it’s on Joeger.
To me, the biggest difference between Barnes & Beli is on the defensive side of the court. Beli puts forth effort, but just isn't quick or athletic enough to guard athletic PFs & struggles making rotations. Our pick&roll defense has been much better with Barnes because he can rotate into the paint when WCS shows on the ball. It frustrated the Warriors quite a few times.
 
To me, the biggest difference between Barnes & Beli is on the defensive side of the court. Beli puts forth effort, but just isn't quick or athletic enough to guard athletic PFs & struggles making rotations. Our pick&roll defense has been much better with Barnes because he can rotate into the paint when WCS shows on the ball. It frustrated the Warriors quite a few times.
I agree that Barnes is a better defender but I’m not sure it’s the right comparison. In this case Barnes is on the floor in both instances so really you need to compare Beli/Barnes versus Barnes/Bogi and I’m not so sure that comparison is so clear. If you just look at defensive ratings in the last 10 games Barnes is 101, Beli is 104.9 and Bogi is 111.6. Barnes and Beli both do a good job of cleaning the glass but that falls off with Bogdan at 3.
 
I agree that Barnes is a better defender but I’m not sure it’s the right comparison. In this case Barnes is on the floor in both instances so really you need to compare Beli/Barnes versus Barnes/Bogi and I’m not so sure that comparison is so clear. If you just look at defensive ratings in the last 10 games Barnes is 101, Beli is 104.9 and Bogi is 111.6. Barnes and Beli both do a good job of cleaning the glass but that falls off with Bogdan at 3.
You’re looking at the last 10 games. Barnes has play a total of 4 games for us. It’s a bit unfair to be judging him when he was on a different team, running a different scheme completely
 
I agree that Barnes is a better defender but I’m not sure it’s the right comparison. In this case Barnes is on the floor in both instances so really you need to compare Beli/Barnes versus Barnes/Bogi and I’m not so sure that comparison is so clear. If you just look at defensive ratings in the last 10 games Barnes is 101, Beli is 104.9 and Bogi is 111.6. Barnes and Beli both do a good job of cleaning the glass but that falls off with Bogdan at 3.
Barnes may be on the floor in both cases, but it is usually the PF who is in position to rotate down more often then the SF.

No matter what Coach said, I doubt this is the permanent starting lineup. As Bagley plays more minutes with the starters his defensive awareness will also get better. Ultimately, I think the starting lineup will be Fox, Hield, Barnes, Bagley & WCS.
 
Nobody remembers Dave saying "this is a three year process" right after the Boogie trade? It seemed somewhat obvious to me that last year was an 82 game training camp where vets teach youth about toughness grit and fundamentals - this year was about playing young and fast and getting their feet under them - and next year will be about serious contending.
I always think it's odd that some people seem to think that Joeger had some epiphany over the summer and simply decided to try something different out of desperation. Last year was unwatchable (I didn't) but it had intention, patience, and long-term visioning behind it.
 

Entity

Hall of Famer
I understand everybody wanting Bagley to start. At the same time I see what coach is doing as well. Bogi would prob start on most teams and deserves the start here. Bagley is coming in quick and getting some time with starters as well as thriving with the second unit. Then he gets time with bogi coming back in for buddy. It’s a nicely done rotation for now getting Bagley acclimated with the starters.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
The second half of the first quarter lineup is superior to the starting lineup.

You know, the one with Barnes playing his natural position and the Number 2 stud of a PF in the game?
 
The second half of the first quarter lineup is superior to the starting lineup.

You know, the one with Barnes playing his natural position and the Number 2 stud of a PF in the game?
I like Bogi with Giles and Bagley. Bogi doesn’t rebound well so while I love Bogi I hate Bogi at the 3. Let Bogi develop more chemistry with Giles.
 
So if the starting 5 is set as above, My question is who is going to lose minutes on the Bench
Yogi,Burks,Brewer,Bjeli,Bagley, Giles

Last game it was Bjeli
I think he is to good not to play him

So who gets less min? Burks,Brewer or Giles
6 man Bench? LOL
Bjeli never left the doghouse again tonight

If he doesn’t get burn in Minnesota of all places it’s safe to say he’s the odd man out going forward
 
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