SF Trades

Hey what do you guys think about this buy-low trade?


Kings receive; Josh Jackson

Suns receive: Harry Giles, Justin Jackson, 2nd rd pick, filler.

(it works in the machine)


With the 4 position and Fox providing more floor spacing than expected Josh could fit here better than ppl realize. He's an uber athlete with the positional flexibility and defensive potential we could use, and there'd be little reason to rush him along given the Kings early success and the 3 guard lineup. The pace here suits his game extremely well. He's rather feisty too.

the GM that drafted Josh has been fired, he's not getting much minutes this year, their rookie Mikal Bridges seems to be quickly stealing his spot... Maybe they'd let him go if they got the right young pieces back?

No offense to Troy Williams but as far as I'm concerned at-worst Josh is like a taller, younger more badass version..
Not a bad suggestion. I can see the logic but frankly I would think hard about giving up on Giles so soon. The kid has potential and a terrific attitude. I love him.

Jackson on the other hand...let’s just say I don’t like players who try to dictate who can draft them, as Jackson did with the Celtics. This is doubly true when they prove to be a big disappointment, as Jackson has.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Porter has a bad contract. That drives down the Porter value. If Washington is serious about r3booting the team, they start with Porter and that contract. Unless they want to attach a first round pick to Mahinmi but that can’t be what they want to do.

The current Washington roster makeup has failed and the only reason Porter got this contract was a belief they needed to keep him to make a deep playoff run. I expect Porter to be moved and I expect one of Beals or Wall to be moved.
Well the Wiz only have two top tradeable players and they're Beal and Porter. I'm sure there are many teams that would love to have Wall, but no one in their right mind is going to take on that 40 mil a year contract. And your right in that their not likely to throw in any 1st rd picks if the idea is to start over. Of Porter and Beal, most would argue that the most overpaid is Porter. That's from a stat perspective. My belief is that if Porter is the missing piece that gets you over the hump, then he's not overpaid. And I think that was the Wiz argument at the time.

If I'm the Wiz, I want to accomplish two things. Get out from under the cap, and acquire assets. Assets can be incoming young players or draft picks. They want to go from being a seller to being a buyer as quickly as possible. Not that easy of course. Something that might work to entice them would be a double dip where we take both Porter and Mahinmi off their hands. A trade of Shumpert, Randolph, Koufos and Jackson would work. We'd be stuck with Mahinmi's contract for one more year, Shumpert still has some rubber left on him, and maybe Jackson turns out to be serviceable in a year or two.

The Wiz would be unloading 42 mil in contracts. Hey, who knows, might be worth a shot.





Washington Wizards

Over Tax Line
$9,068,163
Cap Room
-$30,781,855



Z. Randolph
$11,692,308

I. Shumpert
$11,011,234

Kosta Koufos
$8,739,500

J. Jackson
$2,807,880

Acquiring 4 Players
$34,250,922
Sacramento Kings
Over Tax Line
-$32,721,869
Cap Room
$11,024,578

O. Porter Jr.
$26,011,913

Ian Mahinmi
$15,944,154
Acquiring 2 Players
$41,956,067
 
Well the Wiz only have two top tradeable players and they're Beal and Porter. I'm sure there are many teams that would love to have Wall, but no one in their right mind is going to take on that 40 mil a year contract. And your right in that their not likely to throw in any 1st rd picks if the idea is to start over. Of Porter and Beal, most would argue that the most overpaid is Porter. That's from a stat perspective. My belief is that if Porter is the missing piece that gets you over the hump, then he's not overpaid. And I think that was the Wiz argument at the time.

If I'm the Wiz, I want to accomplish two things. Get out from under the cap, and acquire assets. Assets can be incoming young players or draft picks. They want to go from being a seller to being a buyer as quickly as possible. Not that easy of course. Something that might work to entice them would be a double dip where we take both Porter and Mahinmi off their hands. A trade of Shumpert, Randolph, Koufos and Jackson would work. We'd be stuck with Mahinmi's contract for one more year, Shumpert still has some rubber left on him, and maybe Jackson turns out to be serviceable in a year or two.

The Wiz would be unloading 42 mil in contracts. Hey, who knows, might be worth a shot.





Washington Wizards

Over Tax Line
$9,068,163
Cap Room
-$30,781,855



Z. Randolph
$11,692,308

I. Shumpert
$11,011,234

Kosta Koufos
$8,739,500

J. Jackson
$2,807,880

Acquiring 4 Players
$34,250,922
Sacramento Kings
Over Tax Line
-$32,721,869
Cap Room
$11,024,578

O. Porter Jr.
$26,011,913

Ian Mahinmi
$15,944,154
Acquiring 2 Players
$41,956,067
I’ll go back and say it again though, trading any of the core right now is probably not a good idea......and the other piece that I don’t think they can deal would be Shumpert. At least right now simply because he appears to be an emotional and veteran presence that has some dog in him that is rubbing off on others. Look, if they drop out of competing for a playoff spot, then I trade Shump and get what I can. Right now, they are competing for a playoff spot and I don’t do that deal involving Shump.....nor should they have too.

I think it’s flawed to think they would have to take on a Mahinmi contract.
 
Well the Wiz only have two top tradeable players and they're Beal and Porter. I'm sure there are many teams that would love to have Wall, but no one in their right mind is going to take on that 40 mil a year contract. And your right in that their not likely to throw in any 1st rd picks if the idea is to start over. Of Porter and Beal, most would argue that the most overpaid is Porter. That's from a stat perspective. My belief is that if Porter is the missing piece that gets you over the hump, then he's not overpaid. And I think that was the Wiz argument at the time.

If I'm the Wiz, I want to accomplish two things. Get out from under the cap, and acquire assets. Assets can be incoming young players or draft picks. They want to go from being a seller to being a buyer as quickly as possible. Not that easy of course. Something that might work to entice them would be a double dip where we take both Porter and Mahinmi off their hands. A trade of Shumpert, Randolph, Koufos and Jackson would work. We'd be stuck with Mahinmi's contract for one more year, Shumpert still has some rubber left on him, and maybe Jackson turns out to be serviceable in a year or two.

The Wiz would be unloading 42 mil in contracts. Hey, who knows, might be worth a shot.





Washington Wizards

Over Tax Line
$9,068,163
Cap Room
-$30,781,855



Z. Randolph
$11,692,308

I. Shumpert
$11,011,234

Kosta Koufos
$8,739,500

J. Jackson
$2,807,880

Acquiring 4 Players
$34,250,922
Sacramento Kings
Over Tax Line
-$32,721,869
Cap Room
$11,024,578

O. Porter Jr.
$26,011,913

Ian Mahinmi
$15,944,154
Acquiring 2 Players
$41,956,067
I would have been fine with is until Shump showed his value on and off the court.
 
Don't trade anyone of value to get a SF. Get one in free agency after the season. Let the expirings expire. Continue winning and make the playoffs and do it in exciting fashion to put Sacramento on the map again. After a year of seeing whats what, keep the keepers and go get a SF with all the money and the good reputation that you built during the season.
 
Don't trade anyone of value to get a SF. Get one in free agency after the season. Let the expirings expire. Continue winning and make the playoffs and do it in exciting fashion to put Sacramento on the map again. After a year of seeing whats what, keep the keepers and go get a SF with all the money and the good reputation that you built during the season.
What quality SF do you think we’re going to sign next year? Give me your top 3 options and the contracts we’d have to offer to get them.
 
Well, you could be right, but I think you might be missing one point, or underestimating it, and that is that the Kings can do what no other team can do, and that's get them out from under the luxury tax this season. The Wiz committed salaries are at 131 mil and the luxury tax for this year is at 123 mil. That puts them 8 mil over the luxury tax, and this is not the first year, so their at least into double that, maybe triple that. Sorry, I didn't look it up. Every other team may be able to offer a first rd pick, or perhaps a better player in return, but they can't get the Wiz out from under the tax, and the Kings can because of that 11 mil they have under the cap.

Maybe your right, and that may not be as important as I think it is. And maybe your right about what the Kings would have to throw in to get a deal done. But personally, I wouldn't do it. I'll take my chances this summer in free agency or perhaps a lesser trade before giving up a core player. I'll amend that by saying if that player I'm trading for is Kevin Durant, or Paul George, then I'll up the anti..:p
I get what you're saying, I just think it's a long shot and almost unprecedented. If the Wiz are 8mil over the cap that means they owe about 14mil in luxury tax on the year. I'm not sure if that's quite enough to get them to unload Porter without something positive coming their way other than money savings. The Wizards will probably have a choice between eating the luxury tax and gaining assets or saving money and losing assets. They seem poised to do a complete rebuild with their big 3 on the trading block so it'll be interesting to see what happens.
 
What quality SF do you think we’re going to sign next year? Give me your top 3 options and the contracts we’d have to offer to get them.
Now you are making me pay attention to details. That can be painful :). I guess there are different tiers of guys we could get. something like

Tobias Harris - Porter Money
Oubre - 2/3 Porter Money
Finney Smith - 1/3 Porter Money +.... ?
 
Hey what do you guys think about this buy-low trade?


Kings receive; Josh Jackson

Suns receive: Harry Giles, Justin Jackson, 2nd rd pick, filler.

(it works in the machine)


With the 4 position and Fox providing more floor spacing than expected Josh could fit here better than ppl realize. He's an uber athlete with the positional flexibility and defensive potential we could use, and there'd be little reason to rush him along given the Kings early success and the 3 guard lineup. The pace here suits his game extremely well. He's rather feisty too.

the GM that drafted Josh has been fired, he's not getting much minutes this year, their rookie Mikal Bridges seems to be quickly stealing his spot... Maybe they'd let him go if they got the right young pieces back?

No offense to Troy Williams but as far as I'm concerned at-worst Josh is like a taller, younger more badass version..
No way in hell im trading Giles for Jackson that dude is pure garbage.
 
I'm going to be honest with you, I'm not the biggest Josh Jackson fan, and I predicted to my son that Bridges would eventually take his minutes. Bridges is a better player right now. I watched Josh Jackson play in summer league up close and personal two years in a row, and for the most part, except maybe one game I can remember, he was downright terrible. The dude cannot shoot the basketball, and I doubt he's any stronger than Justin.

Another thing that bothered me was that I saw him standing right next to Justin and he appeared to be an inch or more shorter than Justin. I admit it was hard to tell with his hair. He has at times been a good defender, but other times not so much. So you'd be betting on potential. So the question is, is Josh Jackson's potential greater than Giles potential? I'm not sure it is, and if not, then I don't do the trade. Frankly I don't care where a player was drafted and never use that as a measuring stick when attaching a value to a player.

So I guess I'd say that if you could get him for Justin Jackson and Skal, who has feasted on the Sun's a couple of times, then I would do it. But I'm not sure I would give up on Giles just yet. We have a lot invested in him and I'd like to see it play out.
Fair enough. I was never fully aboard the Josh hype-train and Tatum was always higher on my board the whole season, which was actually unpopular at the time iirc. I'm always weary about these freshman who are way old for their class.... So many were convinced he was a better prospect than Wiggins, and I never saw that, big part is the shooting ... I actually think Josh is a bit of a dooshe, I remember watching him some game a few summers ago and he went ballistic on this ref and got tossed, and just the way he carried himself I remember thinking "he seems like an butthead" and this is not so not like Wiggins or most top ranked players..

As a general rule I refuse to be that guy who posts some crazy lopsided trade in favor of their team on a that teams forum, I'll only post a trade I can play devils advocate for, and to me Skal + our JJ for their JJ just seems like it's such a steep decline and sell-low for PHX that it doesn;t really make much sense for them. The idea is to exhange an asset they can put on the floor (harry) for one thats seemingly redundant.

tbh I kinda think PHX declines the trade with Giles I posted. What exactly is the onus for them to accept this trade? other than completely giving up on Josh, Why sell now?they need a PG.. Only thing I could come up with is Giles passing(and ability to play 4 and backup5, and a flier on our JJ and some filler /shrug. Giles just seems like a much better fit next to Ayton than Skal..

It's interesting though, could be catching a falling knife. I'm really on the fence about just how much risk a deal like this would incur, IDK how you could really argue it's high-risk, it's more like a year and a half rental, with a team option and then QO after that, its not like the clock isn't ticking similarly for JJ and Harry.......

Does Harry really project as a starter here with Willie and Marvin...? I think, ultimately, no. What if other teams want to pay him like a starter? we're gonna match? and then give Marvin a huge deal the very next summer?! after giving Willie a big deal this summer... something doesn;t add up.
 
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Actually no it’s not that interesting and here’s why.

For the record I’m not too much into stats analysis; I prefer the eye test. The eye test tells me that Bogdan is a vital player due to team chemistry. His value far exceeds his statistical production IMO.

Nevertheless,

Our record without Bogdan is 6-4, not 7-4. (60%)

Our record with Bogdan is 4-3, not 3-4. (57%)

(Remember he sat out the Laker game)

The combined win percentage of our opponents without Bogdan is 50% while it is 58% for the teams we have played against with Bogdan in the rotation. That’s significant.

Remember also he was on a minutes restriction (he has played only 23 mins per game) so his potential impact was mitigated plus he was a bit rusty coming off an injury.

In summary what I’m saying is Bogdan is not expendable and I would not trade him unless the trade was really, very lopsided in favor of the Kings. Bogdan is a key player who brings stability, confidence, intelligence and most importantly extreme clutchness when it matters most.
no, you're wrong about our record. we are 7-4 without him and 3-4 with him.

Games he played in:
11/21 vs. Jazz: W
11/19 VS. OKC: W
11/17 vs. HOU: L
11/16 VS. MEM: L
11/12 vs. SAN: W
11/10 vs. LAL: L
11/7 vs. TOR: L

You are miscounting. That is a 3-4 record with Bogdanovic.

He played in the Laker game. He sat out the Timberwolves game. So your entire w% gets thrown out the window.
 
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no, you're wrong about our record. we are 7-4 without him and 3-4 with him.

Games he played in:
11/21 vs. Jazz: W
11/19 VS. OKC: W
11/17 vs. HOU: L
11/16 VS. MEM: L
11/12 vs. SAN: W
11/10 vs. LAL: L
11/7 vs. TOR: L

You are miscounting. That is a 3-4 record with Bogdanovic.

He played in the Laker game. He sat out the Timberwolves game. So your entire w% gets thrown out the window.
You’re right. I did miscount.

I still say it would be a mistake to trade him him though.
 
Well the Wiz only have two top tradeable players and they're Beal and Porter. I'm sure there are many teams that would love to have Wall, but no one in their right mind is going to take on that 40 mil a year contract. And your right in that their not likely to throw in any 1st rd picks if the idea is to start over. Of Porter and Beal, most would argue that the most overpaid is Porter. That's from a stat perspective. My belief is that if Porter is the missing piece that gets you over the hump, then he's not overpaid. And I think that was the Wiz argument at the time.

If I'm the Wiz, I want to accomplish two things. Get out from under the cap, and acquire assets. Assets can be incoming young players or draft picks. They want to go from being a seller to being a buyer as quickly as possible. Not that easy of course. Something that might work to entice them would be a double dip where we take both Porter and Mahinmi off their hands. A trade of Shumpert, Randolph, Koufos and Jackson would work. We'd be stuck with Mahinmi's contract for one more year, Shumpert still has some rubber left on him, and maybe Jackson turns out to be serviceable in a year or two.

The Wiz would be unloading 42 mil in contracts. Hey, who knows, might be worth a shot.





Washington Wizards

Over Tax Line
$9,068,163
Cap Room
-$30,781,855



Z. Randolph
$11,692,308

I. Shumpert
$11,011,234

Kosta Koufos
$8,739,500

J. Jackson
$2,807,880

Acquiring 4 Players
$34,250,922
Sacramento Kings
Over Tax Line
-$32,721,869
Cap Room
$11,024,578

O. Porter Jr.
$26,011,913

Ian Mahinmi
$15,944,154
Acquiring 2 Players
$41,956,067
I was thinking something along these lines. However, my idea was to offer WCS and a couple of 2nd round picks instead of KK, and ask for the 1st round pick. I don't know if WW bite, but I would give it a try. Unloading IM might be huge for them.

I must admit, in spite of all WCS improvements on offense, I can't stand him watching opponents layups and dunks with hands down and not even trying to step closer. I'd rather keep KK next year for cheap and start Bagley.
 
I’ll go back and say it again though, trading any of the core right now is probably not a good idea......and the other piece that I don’t think they can deal would be Shumpert. At least right now simply because he appears to be an emotional and veteran presence that has some dog in him that is rubbing off on others. Look, if they drop out of competing for a playoff spot, then I trade Shump and get what I can. Right now, they are competing for a playoff spot and I don’t do that deal involving Shump.....nor should they have too.

I think it’s flawed to think they would have to take on a Mahinmi contract.
Porter should be improvement over Shump, however, it is not guaranteed. It's a risk.
 
You’re offering our crap plus a 2nd for two starting level (at minimum top bench rotation) players. I don’t get it. The wizards would only trade Oubre for a shot at a star or lottery pick. He’s a low salary RFA, they hold all the cards.
While I agree the Wiz likely don’t do that trade they don’t hold all the cards. They will be in the repeater Luxary Tax next year and will struggle to match any offer for Oubre above 15M. Teams know this fact and are likely low balling the Wiz on trade offers.
 
The Kings are in a position that no other team is in. They have almost 11 mil in capspace, meaning they can send less back in terms of committed money than any other team, and the sole point of the Wiz trading any of their stars is to get cap relief. So no, I'm not giving them the bank. What I'll give them is an expiring like Randolph (11 mil), plus our capspace, and Jackson or Skal. If pressured, maybe I'll part with Giles, or throw in a high 2nd rd pick.

How many other teams have as many expirings that we have along with capspace to make a deal work where they get instant cap relief. That deal would save them around 26 mil this season when you combine the salary savings along with the luxury tax savings. Now that may be chump change to you, but to a team that's going nowhere, it's a lot of money. If they don't want that deal, then good luck somewhere else. Were not desperate.
I agree with you on everything except the possibly including Giles part.

No way would I include Giles in a trade at this point. I think he still has potential to be a high end starter in time. I would much rather throw in a couple of 2nd round picks OR both JJ and Skal (instead of just one of them). The rest of your post is spot on.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Now you are making me pay attention to details. That can be painful :). I guess there are different tiers of guys we could get. something like

Tobias Harris - Porter Money
Oubre - 2/3 Porter Money
Finney Smith - 1/3 Porter Money +.... ?
I think too many people were imprinted by Oubre in the game he played against us. At the time he was shooting around 40% from the three. At present he has returned to earth and is shooting a pitiful 26.8% from the three, and only 41.1% overall. The highest he ever shot from the three was last season when he shot 34.1%. The highest overall average he ever shot was his rookie year when he shot 42.7%. Point being, he's not a very good or efficient scorer. He's also not much of a passer. His rebounding is average to below average. He's known for being a defender, and I do think that's where most of his talent lies, but he doesn't even average one steal a game.

So there is no way on gods earth that I would pay Oubre 2/3's of what Porter is getting paid. At present, Porter is a far better player than Oubre, and I'm not sure that Oubre will ever be a good shooter. And the last thing I want is a player who is shooting under 30% from the three, chucking up over four three's a game. This is Oubre's fourth year in the league, and so far I haven't seen any significant improvement in his shooting. That scares me a bit.

I'm not saying I wouldn't be willing to take a flyer on Oubre, but he's not at the top of my list, and I wouldn't be willing to give much of value to get him. I doubt he's on the garage sale list if the Wiz are trying to trade porter. But who knows?
 
While I agree the Wiz likely don’t do that trade they don’t hold all the cards. They will be in the repeater Luxary Tax next year and will struggle to match any offer for Oubre above 15M. Teams know this fact and are likely low balling the Wiz on trade offers.
They are in the repeater tax THIS year.
 
I think too many people were imprinted by Oubre in the game he played against us. At the time he was shooting around 40% from the three. At present he has returned to earth and is shooting a pitiful 26.8% from the three, and only 41.1% overall. The highest he ever shot from the three was last season when he shot 34.1%. The highest overall average he ever shot was his rookie year when he shot 42.7%. Point being, he's not a very good or efficient scorer. He's also not much of a passer. His rebounding is average to below average. He's known for being a defender, and I do think that's where most of his talent lies, but he doesn't even average one steal a game.

So there is no way on gods earth that I would pay Oubre 2/3's of what Porter is getting paid. At present, Porter is a far better player than Oubre, and I'm not sure that Oubre will ever be a good shooter. And the last thing I want is a player who is shooting under 30% from the three, chucking up over four three's a game. This is Oubre's fourth year in the league, and so far I haven't seen any significant improvement in his shooting. That scares me a bit.

I'm not saying I wouldn't be willing to take a flyer on Oubre, but he's not at the top of my list, and I wouldn't be willing to give much of value to get him. I doubt he's on the garage sale list if the Wiz are trying to trade porter. But who knows?
Completely agree. Oubre is highly overrated here. He is not the answer at SF
 
no, you're wrong about our record. we are 7-4 without him and 3-4 with him.

Games he played in:
11/21 vs. Jazz: W
11/19 VS. OKC: W
11/17 vs. HOU: L
11/16 VS. MEM: L
11/12 vs. SAN: W
11/10 vs. LAL: L
11/7 vs. TOR: L

You are miscounting. That is a 3-4 record with Bogdanovic.

He played in the Laker game. He sat out the Timberwolves game. So your entire w% gets thrown out the window.
I think using a record a team had with or without a player to judge the value of that player to the team is flawed unless they played the same teams in the same circumstances. With Bogdan we lost the games against surging Houston and Lakers, locked in Memphis, red hot Toronto. If the 10 game stretch without Bogdan included those particular games instead of Miami, Orlando, Atlanta, would the Kings be 7-3? It is a stretch to say that they would have won lets say 2 of those 4 games if Bogdan did not play. The only teams that we played with and without Bogdan are Utah and OKC
we are 1-1 without Bogdan and 2-0 with Bogdan in those games.
 
I think too many people were imprinted by Oubre in the game he played against us. At the time he was shooting around 40% from the three. At present he has returned to earth and is shooting a pitiful 26.8% from the three, and only 41.1% overall. The highest he ever shot from the three was last season when he shot 34.1%. The highest overall average he ever shot was his rookie year when he shot 42.7%. Point being, he's not a very good or efficient scorer. He's also not much of a passer. His rebounding is average to below average. He's known for being a defender, and I do think that's where most of his talent lies, but he doesn't even average one steal a game.

So there is no way on gods earth that I would pay Oubre 2/3's of what Porter is getting paid. At present, Porter is a far better player than Oubre, and I'm not sure that Oubre will ever be a good shooter. And the last thing I want is a player who is shooting under 30% from the three, chucking up over four three's a game. This is Oubre's fourth year in the league, and so far I haven't seen any significant improvement in his shooting. That scares me a bit.

I'm not saying I wouldn't be willing to take a flyer on Oubre, but he's not at the top of my list, and I wouldn't be willing to give much of value to get him. I doubt he's on the garage sale list if the Wiz are trying to trade porter. But who knows?
Definitely agree that Oubre did make an impression on me in that game against us. The money I used includes a high amount of "Kings tax" and is an overpayment for sure. That's what I think we can go with a lower tier SF that is solid that will hit the open 3, play good defense, and not cost a lot like Finney-Smith. We don't need to trade a valuable piece like Bogdan or Buddy to get a jackpot SF.