SAR is a talented player, and it's a good deal considering they will not spend a whole lot for him. However, this team still has a glaring weakness inside when it comes to rebounding and shotblocking. Neither Miller or Rahim do those things very well. On hoopshype.com, it describes SAR as a player with scoring ability inside and outside. My fear is that he's going to fit in with the rest of the Kings and stay on the outside, shooting jump shots. The Kings are still going to be in trouble in the playoffs. There has to be starter among the frontcourt who can either score at will in the paint, rebound, defend, or shotblock at a high level in order to go far in the playoffs.
Webber and Rahim is not a wash. Not even close. In 03 Webber was arguably an MVP candidate. He certainly matched up with Duncan and Garnett than better than SAR will now. A much bigger body than Rahim and a major chemistry cog that made the Kings the best team in the NBA for those two years.
Miller and Vlade is not a wash or even close to one. Vlade's huge body was enormously underrated and his ability to post down low and draw double teams was gigantic. For what this team needs now - an in-shape Vlade would be much better than Miller.
This team doesn't have a Webber - Vlade - or Christie right now. Add Bibby and Peja and it makes a more balanced squad. That's a big difference. To say they measure up with those squads is bananas.
Miller and Vlade is not a wash or even close to one. Vlade's huge body was enormously underrated and his ability to post down low and draw double teams was gigantic. For what this team needs now - an in-shape Vlade would be much better than Miller.
This team doesn't have a Webber - Vlade - or Christie right now. Add Bibby and Peja and it makes a more balanced squad. That's a big difference. To say they measure up with those squads is bananas.
Webber was really soft on defense, and he's not bigger than SAR (6'10", 245 lbs vs. 6'9" 245 lbs). He wasn't an MVP candidate for his defense.
Vlade was great guarding Shaq because he was one of the few centers strong enough to take him on, but he wasn't great against quicker centers and he didn't provide much help on interior defense. I don't think he was better than Miller.
Vlade was great guarding Shaq because he was one of the few centers strong enough to take him on, but he wasn't great against quicker centers and he didn't provide much help on interior defense. I don't think he was better than Miller.
Sure, Doug was first team all defense in 2003, but to say that he was a candidate for defensive player of the year is like saying Allan Keyes was a candidate for president...although it's technically true, it was never going to happen. I agree that defense is contagious, but if you had to describe the Kings' defense in 2003 it would be "team defense". Keon was a good shot blocker, but that's it. Compared to what the Kings had in the past he was great, but I wouldn't go so far as saying he was a great defensive player in comparison to the rest of the league. JJ was a tough wingman who did provide a defensive spark at times, but the team still relied more on the team concept of defense than any one person shutting their man down. This team, assuming that Reef is added to the mix, is not all that different than that team and I truly believe that they are going to TRY to do the team defense concept with this core one more time. Additionally, the while Reef is not known for his defense, the addtion of a Bonzi on the permiter will take pressure off those down low on the defensive end.
Webber wasn't the liability he became when his knees worked. His hands were stronger, and when he was at his physical peak he could physically dominate a guy like Robert Horry-- and did.
The height/weight stats don't mean much strength wise, otherwise Miller would be knocking people on their butts every night instead of the opposite.
The Kings were 4 years into building a championship team then. This unit has never played a game together. Pretty big assumption to guess they are that far along.
The height/weight stats don't mean much strength wise, otherwise Miller would be knocking people on their butts every night instead of the opposite.
The Kings were 4 years into building a championship team then. This unit has never played a game together. Pretty big assumption to guess they are that far along.
All I have to say is that your assessment of defensive personnel is way off in this case. And gets more off when you take into account the minutes distribution on the current team. The considerable majority of minutes will be going to career-long softies.
as an aside -- Vlade was a better, more disruptive defender than Miller -- the flopping and flailing served its purpose. Webber was a better defender than SAR, and a FAR better help defender. Doug was better than Bonzi (Bonzi takes care of business but is not a first team all defense guy), Keon was better defensively than any big we have off the bench, so was Pollard for that matter, BJax in his prime started 30 games over Bibby, Jimmy Jackson was tough, Hedo was rangy and versatile and a good enough defender to play for Pop and not embarass himself, Gerald Wallace was a atheltic freak 10th/11th man....If you put a list of all the people on the roster in 02-03 next to all of their approximate counterparts today, beyond Peja and Bibby, who are pretty much Peja and Bibby, the 02-03 player might be a better defender in every single case. Maybe Jason Hart can compare to Bobby...but actually not when you take into account the balls out hustle and fearlessness Bobby always displayed -- he himself got as vote for second team all defense (as did Keon and Webb).
As an aside I have liked the little minor moves we have made to add defense on the bench. But they are minor moves for minor players who are going to be buried behind a quintet of starters who should easily average 36-38mpg each. We could have Big Ben, Ak-47, Artest, KG and Bill Russel in his prime on the bench and they wouldn't be able to help us if they barely touched the floor and all the minutes went to the softies ahead of them. If we're going to paly any defense at all we either need to somehow really limit those starters' minutes (and what really are the odds of that?) or get "lucky" enough to have major players hurt all the time so we can mix defensive players in with the starters.
as an aside -- Vlade was a better, more disruptive defender than Miller -- the flopping and flailing served its purpose. Webber was a better defender than SAR, and a FAR better help defender. Doug was better than Bonzi (Bonzi takes care of business but is not a first team all defense guy), Keon was better defensively than any big we have off the bench, so was Pollard for that matter, BJax in his prime started 30 games over Bibby, Jimmy Jackson was tough, Hedo was rangy and versatile and a good enough defender to play for Pop and not embarass himself, Gerald Wallace was a atheltic freak 10th/11th man....If you put a list of all the people on the roster in 02-03 next to all of their approximate counterparts today, beyond Peja and Bibby, who are pretty much Peja and Bibby, the 02-03 player might be a better defender in every single case. Maybe Jason Hart can compare to Bobby...but actually not when you take into account the balls out hustle and fearlessness Bobby always displayed -- he himself got as vote for second team all defense (as did Keon and Webb).
As an aside I have liked the little minor moves we have made to add defense on the bench. But they are minor moves for minor players who are going to be buried behind a quintet of starters who should easily average 36-38mpg each. We could have Big Ben, Ak-47, Artest, KG and Bill Russel in his prime on the bench and they wouldn't be able to help us if they barely touched the floor and all the minutes went to the softies ahead of them. If we're going to paly any defense at all we either need to somehow really limit those starters' minutes (and what really are the odds of that?) or get "lucky" enough to have major players hurt all the time so we can mix defensive players in with the starters.
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I agree with your belief that the bench this year will not see that many extended minutes, however I also believe that we will see a much better defensive product on the floor than we have in seasons past. I think that all this talk of defense from the Maloofs all the way down the chain of command and the fact that this is RA's final year in his contract will be the impetus for a more focused effort on team defense and while I don't think that Bonzi is as good a defender as Doug was in his prime, I do think that he brings an attitude to this team that will translate into more toughness and better defense. With that said, talk is cheap and we just have to wait to see what happens, but I'm encouraged by GP's moves and I'm encouraged by the things that I'm hearing from the organization. Now they just have to go out and do it.
T
Here's what I thought our starting lineup was looking like a month ago:
Miller, Bibby, Peja, Thomas, Martin
Here's what it looks like now:
Miller, Bibby, Peja, Rahim, Wells
That's a serious upgrade considering they essentially only given up O-tag and Jackson (who's been semi-replaced w/ Hart)
If thats what the line up ends up like, fine by me. Although, I still see Rahim being pieced together with somebody for a bigger stud.
Miller, Bibby, Peja, Thomas, Martin
Here's what it looks like now:
Miller, Bibby, Peja, Rahim, Wells
That's a serious upgrade considering they essentially only given up O-tag and Jackson (who's been semi-replaced w/ Hart)
If thats what the line up ends up like, fine by me. Although, I still see Rahim being pieced together with somebody for a bigger stud.
First I'll say, this deal if it were to go through, is not something I'm going to get excited about. I was relieved when Rahim was said to be joining the Nets, and was on edge when that deal look like it might fall through. Considering we were talking about Boozer a couple days ago, this looks more reasonable. That is if the deal is similar to the Nets deal, which isn't certain right now.
Anyhow, anyone who thinks Webber and Shareef defensively is a wash is kidding themselves. Webber in his prime was a much better defender than Shareef will ever be. Not a stopper by any means, but could hold his own, and IMO made the team better. Brad has the tough guy rep, but Vlade was the smarter of the two and playing with a healthy Webber made him better.
You guys are kidding yourselves with this "try harder= defense gets better" stuff. That's the kind of thing you learn in grade school. Once you get to this level it's hardly ever about trying harder. Players have physical limitations, and the only way to make-up for that is to add players that can cover up for them. Is Shareef that guy? I think not.
Anyhow, anyone who thinks Webber and Shareef defensively is a wash is kidding themselves. Webber in his prime was a much better defender than Shareef will ever be. Not a stopper by any means, but could hold his own, and IMO made the team better. Brad has the tough guy rep, but Vlade was the smarter of the two and playing with a healthy Webber made him better.
You guys are kidding yourselves with this "try harder= defense gets better" stuff. That's the kind of thing you learn in grade school. Once you get to this level it's hardly ever about trying harder. Players have physical limitations, and the only way to make-up for that is to add players that can cover up for them. Is Shareef that guy? I think not.
T
"Thinking that Abdur-Rahim would give them a back-to-the-basket scorer they haven't had in years, the Nets completed the sign-and-trade on Aug.3, giving him a six-year, $38 million deal.So with the clock ticking on the trade exception, which they didn't want to lose, they rescinded the deal, leaving him to scramble to find a team for a lot less money than he thought he'd make this summer. Before agreeing to the Nets' deal, he passed on a $47million offer from Milwaukee. Now he is looking at probably having to settle for some team's mid-level exception, which would be for a maximum of $29million. " www.nydailynews.com
not too bad if we pick him up for that amount and no more.
not too bad if we pick him up for that amount and no more.
First of all when we traded Chris for the 3, we got them because they were servicable tradable palyers without ridiculous contracts (KT's on the bubble), or else we would have taken Big Dogs expiring contract reduced the overall salary with nobody to trade and still no cap room.
Signing SAR allows us to get a servicable veteran for a reasonable price (assuming MLE) that is another tradable cog.
For all those who say he has never won and that is a knock on him, look at where he played, Shaq would not have won, Vancouver (not memphis), Atlanta (the new clippers who will not allow trades to make their team better) and the Jail Blazers 2 years past any semblance of a cohesive unit.
Signing SAR allows us to get a servicable veteran for a reasonable price (assuming MLE) that is another tradable cog.
For all those who say he has never won and that is a knock on him, look at where he played, Shaq would not have won, Vancouver (not memphis), Atlanta (the new clippers who will not allow trades to make their team better) and the Jail Blazers 2 years past any semblance of a cohesive unit.
Insider
Reef Raft
Aug 10 - Talk about getting set adrift. After the Nets abruptly cut the line on the Shareef Abdur-Rahim deal, agent Aaron Goodwin is looking for a new team to sign with. Goodwin says six or seven other teams are interested in his client, according to the New York Post. The Kings are one of those teams. Geoff Petrie told the Sacramento Bee, "In light of the events of (Tuesday), and that Shareef is now a free agent, we have very, very, very serious interest in trying to work something out in the next couple of days. It's highly unlikely that this would be a sign-and-trade deal." But you have to wonder what kind of cash he can command now. SAR declined a $47 million offer from the Bucks earlier in the summer.
Reef Raft
Aug 10 - Talk about getting set adrift. After the Nets abruptly cut the line on the Shareef Abdur-Rahim deal, agent Aaron Goodwin is looking for a new team to sign with. Goodwin says six or seven other teams are interested in his client, according to the New York Post. The Kings are one of those teams. Geoff Petrie told the Sacramento Bee, "In light of the events of (Tuesday), and that Shareef is now a free agent, we have very, very, very serious interest in trying to work something out in the next couple of days. It's highly unlikely that this would be a sign-and-trade deal." But you have to wonder what kind of cash he can command now. SAR declined a $47 million offer from the Bucks earlier in the summer.
There is nothing we can't accomplish management vise with SAR that we could without him. I don't see why people think this somehow gives us less of a chance to land a great PF than we had before. If anything, we have more of a chance since we have another trading piece wich gives us more versatility in our dealings. Would it be better if we ended up with the same team minus SAR? Was that somehow gonna land us a PF and this moves precludes it?
thesanityannex said:
Here's what I thought our starting lineup was looking like a month ago:
Miller, Bibby, Peja, Thomas, Martin
Here's what it looks like now:
Miller, Bibby, Peja, Rahim, Wells
That's a serious upgrade considering they essentially only given up O-tag and Jackson (who's been semi-replaced w/ Hart)
If thats what the line up ends up like, fine by me. Although, I still see Rahim being pieced together with somebody for a bigger stud.
Miller, Bibby, Peja, Thomas, Martin
Here's what it looks like now:
Miller, Bibby, Peja, Rahim, Wells
That's a serious upgrade considering they essentially only given up O-tag and Jackson (who's been semi-replaced w/ Hart)
If thats what the line up ends up like, fine by me. Although, I still see Rahim being pieced together with somebody for a bigger stud.
