Retro discussion of Peja and "clutch" (split from fav King thread)

[kennadog]

A lot of players, great or not, are going to miss game-winning shots. I believe Jordan said he missed a lot more game-winners than he made. Doug Christie air-balled a rather important game-winning 3-pointer. So what? At least they took the shot.

I'm not declaring Peja clutch, but neither do I think he was the complete wimp many here want to paint him. Peja suffered from not being the player so many Kings fans wanted him to be. If he'd been seen as a role player, there to do what he did best, there wouldn't be so much criticism, IMHO. A lot of games wouldn't have been close enough to win without Peja burying a boatload of 3s. And I loved watching him do it.

 

[VF21]

...Peja suffered from not being the player so many Kings fans wanted him to be...

To extend that just a little, Peja suffered from not being the player the MEDIA wanted him to be and often tried to portray him as actually being...

 

[kennadog]

To extend that just a little, Peja suffered from not being the player the MEDIA wanted him to be and often tried to portray him as actually being...

Expectations are a b*tch of a burden to bear.

 

[Peja]

I don't understand why some people can't stand Peja so much?Kennadog made a good point with that clutch shots.If you wanna bash Peja you can always find some reason,but that's not objective.He had his ups and downs like any player during his carrer,he had tough injuries,etc.In 2003/2004 season when C Webb came back he was automatically first option in the offence again,even though Peja had a great season and I still think that was a mistake.Bottom line - when Peja was in Sactown we were contenders,now he is in New Orleans and they are team No1 in the west...that means something,at least to me.
I would honestly like to close this book once and for all.Let's not ruin that magical story that Peja,Vlade,Chris,Doug and Mike wrote.All of them made us proud to be Kings fans and put us on the NBA map.God knows how many year will pass until we get there again.

P.S.@Fakeinjury - Peja was averaging 17,1 pts,6 rebs and 1,3 as for 36,3 minutes per game in his playoff career.That's pretty good for me and not to mention that he wasn't a starter in first 2 years.

 

[bperiod]

I've already made my case for this. ONE GAME!! You're not answering any of my questions. Find something else to back up your steatment.

I DON'T NEED something else to back up my statement...that is the biggest moment in Kings history!? I don't care about worthless shots in meaningless games. He is an NBA player, been playing ball his whole life...I'm sure you can find video's of him making shots. WHEN it really counted...he CHOKED! Period. Who cares if he was one of the top scorers in the league at one time...he punkd out crawled into a hole later that season. (of course that's Chris' fault, right? ) If he was so clutch he wouldn't be on his 3rd team in as many years. I understand he may be your favorite player..but I am not the only one here who sees who Peja is and was....a gifted shooter who was/is SOFT and disappeared when it counted more than he showed up....PERIOD.

 

[bperiod]

Sorry posted the previous response w/o reading page 2, sorry. lol

 

[uolj]

I understand he may be your favorite player..

This is a horrible argument in general and in this case especially. You might consider checking the thread we just had. (Hint: Ryan didn't pick Stojakovic.)

but I am not the only one here who sees who Peja is and was....a gifted shooter who was/is SOFT and disappeared when it counted more than he showed up....PERIOD.

For a long time Stojakovic had the reputation of having one big half each game, either the first or the second. Later, that turned into him having a good third quarter and disappearing in the fourth. Whether that was perception or reality I don't know, but I suspect it was a bit of both.

However, being bad in the clutch is more than shying away from taking shots. It's shying away from taking shots and missing them when you have the opportunity more than you would if it were the first quarter. I think Peja naturally shies away from demanding the ball at any time, and especially in the fourth quarter when others are demanding it. That doesn't mean he'll miss the shot when the opportunity arises.

He missed a huge shot horribly in a critical game 7. He's also made important shots in important games and too many to be considered horrible in the clutch.

 

[Ryan]

I don't care about worthless shots in meaningless games.....WHEN it really counted...he CHOKED

Meaningless games? One of the videos I posted was from the WC semi finals. He didn't "choke".

If he was so clutch he wouldn't be on his 3rd team in as many years.

Hm, maybe you should do some research on Robert Horry.

Peja is and was....a gifted shooter who was/is SOFT and disappeared when it counted more than he showed up....PERIOD.

What's funny is I agree with you up until the last point where you say he "disappeared" when it counted. And once again, you only go back to Game 7, when he had not played for weeks, and you can ask anyone who knows basketball, that's not the easiest thing to do. He messed up during that game, and then proved himself in the following years.

 

[bajaden]

I appreciate the Vid. Peja has a chance to be better for his new team. But, he is not clutch in the slightest. Webber was taking the shots that really matter. If peja was clutch, he would be making more money than he is now. If. Kobe makes 20 mil. KG makes 20 mil. Those players are clutch, and are durable and hard working. Peja is hard working, working hard on shoot. I am against ever mentioning peja again. His offense was soooo bad, teams would sluff off him during the playoffs. He was a liability and I would like to see how he finds a way to alienate himself from new orleans. But it would be nice to see him succeed.

The knock on Webber his whole career was that he couldn't make a clutch shot, and in truth he didn't make that many with the Kings. He took a lot and missed a lot. Peja really didn't have that many opportunities in the fourh quarter. I watched game after game, especially after Christi left, with him standing in the corner waving his arm and being ignored.

 

[vj9999]

If he was so clutch he wouldn't be on his 3rd team in as many years.

That makes no sense. He was in Indiana for couple of months after he was traded and then signed a big deal in the ofseason with Hornets. Not even close to being somebody who no one wants and is just floating around the league.

 

[piksi]

I am against ever mentioning peja again. His offense was soooo bad, teams would sluff off him during the playoffs.

and yet he was the most efficient player we had. He scored without hogging the ball.

You have to come up with something better

 

[piksi]

It's gonna be a long TDOS. Maybe we'll pretend, just for the summer, we DID win in 2001 and try and predict what would have happened afterwards.

I am gladly stay away from that

 

[Bricklayer]

The knock on Webber his whole career was that he couldn't make a clutch shot, and in truth he didn't make that many with the Kings. He took a lot and missed a lot. Peja really didn't have that many opportunities in the fourh quarter. I watched game after game, especially after Christi left, with him standing in the corner waving his arm and being ignored.

Webber's progress as a clucth shooter was very obvious if you were a fan of the team -- national media of course always lagged, but it went like this (and exactly like this):

1)when Webb first arrived, the rep was absolutely true. He didn't want the ball when it mattered. Too many bad experiences I think. It was Vlade who missed the little hook that would have beat Utah back in '99 -- Webb didn't take that shot.

2)But a funny thing happened, and it happened in the 2002 playoffs. Mike Bibby was the big hero, but Chris Webber, who above all wanted a championship, sniffed the title in his grasp and played a helluva series. And yet there were still gaffes -- he still wasn't the clutch player. But the desire was there and he put up some big numbers as the engine while Bibby hit the clutch shots.

3) and then after the disappointment he came out in 2002-03 and wanted that title,. Knew it was right there. Sometime that fall, late November I think, he hit a huge clutch shot. It was remarkable because it was one fo the only game winners I could recall him hitting as a King. And then about a week later he hit a second one. And then he was off and he had about half a dozen of them on the year. Just making those first couple changed his whole outlook/confidence I think. He had finally become that great player. And then just like that, the knee injury happened, and it was over.

4) However even after he came back, Chris Webber wanted that ball at the end of games. He had been robbed of his knee, but the clutch lessons he had learend through the contention years stayed. In his final season with us he hit big game winning/tying shot after big game winning/tying shot.

That was the Webber arc.

There has been no Peja arc. He had a big game vs. either Toronto or the Celtics back in '02 I think. He came up small every playoffs. He choked off his own defense of the 3pt shooting contest. He never had any prolonged streak of taking and making that shot. And he never had the persoinality for it either. He has never had that edge. And of course it is compounded by him not having one on one skills.

 

['89 Kings Fan]

^^nitpicking a bit, but that "stop" on nowitzki was actually a foul. i think he intentionally grabbed him but dirk broke away, and no call was made.

I guess thats what I get for only having radio that year. Gary Gerould did not mention that as far as I remember.

Also if Vlade makes that hook shot would that have made us the 2nd time a 8th seed beat a #1 seed in a 5 game series?

 

[Peja]

There has been no Peja arc. He had a big game vs. either Toronto or the Celtics back in '02 I think. He came up small every playoffs. He choked off his own defense of the 3pt shooting contest. He never had any prolonged streak of taking and making that shot. And he never had the persoinality for it either. He has never had that edge. And of course it is compounded by him not having one on one skills.

I remember those playoff games against Dallas when he had 39 or so,then Minnesota series,42 points against Seatle,all in the playoffs.Of course he had some terrible games,but some people only see his bad side.

 

[sloter]

WHEN it really counted...he CHOKED! Period. Who cares if he was one of the top scorers in the league at one time...he punkd out crawled into a hole later that season. (of course that's Chris' fault, right? )

You unintentionally brough up an interesting point. The pivotal moment in "the most important series in Kings history" was Robert Horry's shot. He was left wide open but noone other than Chris Webber...

Pedja shouldn't have even been on the court late in game 7. Coming back after an injury he was way off that whole game, so he should have been the last option taking that shot. Also, he has improved his shooting late in the game drastically in the last couple of years, and I would have no problem with him taking a shot late in the game. It will be very interesting watching how he performs in this year's playoffs, he hasn't been there in a while.

As a reminder, one of the reasons why he didn't hit very many clutch shots with the Kings is because he was always 3rd option in those moments.

 

[BMiller52]

You unintentionally brough up an interesting point. The pivotal moment in "the most important series in Kings history" was Robert Horry's shot. He was left wide open but noone other than Chris Webber...

Pedja shouldn't have even been on the court late in game 7. Coming back after an injury he was way off that whole game, so he should have been the last option taking that shot. Also, he has improved his shooting late in the game drastically in the last couple of years, and I would have no problem with him taking a shot late in the game. It will be very interesting watching how he performs in this year's playoffs, he hasn't been there in a while.

As a reminder, one of the reasons why he didn't hit very many clutch shots with the Kings is because he was always 3rd option in those moments.

Chris was defending Shaq a lot in that series and IIRC he and Vlade were both down by Shaq, then the ball was tipped out. But Chris was our main shotblocker. Wouldn't you rather have your main shotblocker trying to guard their top 2 offensive options(Shaq, and then before that Kobe drove to the hoop I think but I'm not sure) instead of Robert Horry. I don't blame Chris for that. VS the Lakers you had to pick your poison, someone wasn't going to be guarded. They had shooters(Fisher/Horry/Kobe), superstars who could go 1 on 1(Shaq/Kobe), all were intelligent guys who could pass(whether they wanted to is a different story), and they ran a difficult to stop offense(that has gotten 9 rings btw).

Sorry but the fact Peja airballed maybe the biggest shot of his life isn't Chris's fault or Rick's fault. He choked, hopefully for him he can make up for it and get himself a ring with New Orleans. If he couldn't play he shouldn't have been out on the court. Is he the only reason we lost? Nope. Like you pointed out Vlade and Chris couldn't get the rebound and Horry hits that shot. Then there was the Samaki Walker 3 after half time that shouldn't have counted. We got screwed in game 6(26 FTs in 4th quarter). Other guys besides Peja missed free throws in game 7. But the fact is, he had the chance to make all that meaningless and take his team to the finals by hitting 1 3 pointer he's hit thousands of times in his life and he blew it. Is that a career defining moment? Not necessarily, he can still make up for it but he definitely screwed up right there and at times(important times) he wilted under pressure.

 

[Jerryaki]

Bottom line - when Peja was in Sactown we were contenders,now he is in New Orleans and they are team No1 in the west...that means something,at least to me.

that is a really big example of correlation != causation...

 

[bperiod]

Sorry but the fact Peja airballed maybe the biggest shot of his life isn't Chris's fault or Rick's fault. He choked, hopefully for him he can make up for it and get himself a ring with New Orleans. If he couldn't play he shouldn't have been out on the court. Is he the only reason we lost? Nope. Like you pointed out Vlade and Chris couldn't get the rebound and Horry hits that shot. Then there was the Samaki Walker 3 after half time that shouldn't have counted. We got screwed in game 6(26 FTs in 4th quarter). Other guys besides Peja missed free throws in game 7. But the fact is, he had the chance to make all that meaningless and take his team to the finals by hitting 1 3 pointer he's hit thousands of times in his life and he blew it. Is that a career defining moment? Not necessarily, he can still make up for it but he definitely screwed up right there and at times(important times) he wilted under pressure.

WORD!

As I remember he sat out for two weeks with an injury

Pedja shouldn't have even been on the court late in game 7. Coming back after an injury he was way off that whole game, so he should have been the last option taking that shot.

This repeated arguement of him being hurt and out for weeks is 'WEAK'. C'mon now...stop trying to blame him being hurt for choking on a gaming winning 3. The difference between choking and just missing a shot is.....HITTING THE RIM!

Hm, maybe you should do some research on Robert Horry

Robert Horry is/was a role player..not the second coming who supposedly would've been MVP and led us to a championship if it weren't for big bad C-Webb coming back and forcing Peja to fade away...

Anyway..I am actually quite amazed that this all turned into a nice 3 page thread...LOL Great dicussing our Kings with all of you!

 

[vj9999]

I'm one of the biggest Peja fans, but Peja is not nor he will ever be a star on the team. He is performing the best when he is 3rd option on the team. Right now he is blossoming because he has an MVP calliber point guard feeding him and an all star PF as 2nd option.

I'd still trust Peja with taking a shot at crunch time (and Hornets feel the same way since he has done it quite a few times this season).

Peja is type of player that you love when he is doing good and hate when he is doing bad. When he is off he is way of. When he is dialed in he is as good as they come and can turn the game around. H's done it few time this year and few times times for us too. Game against TWolves comes to mind when he went all crazy in 4th qtr and forced the overtime.

Anyway. Discussign Peja is really hard. You have people who love him and will do anything to defend him. You have people who hate him and blame him for everything. And you have people in the middle who like to just stay out of it since it is a no win situation to argue either side

 

[Ryan]

This repeated arguement of him being hurt and out for weeks is 'WEAK'. C'mon now...stop trying to blame him being hurt for choking on a gaming winning 3. The difference between choking and just missing a shot is.....HITTING THE RIM!

Hmm, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one because I had an ankle injury playing basketball and it really hurt my jump shot when I came back.

Robert Horry is/was a role player..not the second coming who supposedly would've been MVP and led us to a championship if it weren't for big bad C-Webb coming back and forcing Peja to fade away...

Eh, I can't believe I'm saying this, but good point.

 

[Ryan]

I'm one of the biggest Peja fans, but Peja is not nor he will ever be a star on the team. He is performing the best when he is 3rd option on the team. Right now he is blossoming because he has an MVP calliber point guard feeding him and an all star PF as 2nd option.

He wasn't the "3rd option" in 2003-04, he was our 1st option, and he had his best season ever....so im not sure how you can say that.

Anyway. Discussign Peja is really hard. You have people who love him and will do anything to defend him. You have people who hate him and blame him for everything. And you have people in the middle who like to just stay out of it since it is a no win situation to argue either side

I don't love Peja, I just think he was a better player than we give him credit.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

I'll chime in on this subject of Peja being 'clutch'(at least with us)...I can count the # of times he came through when it really mattered on one hand...most memorable being in 2004 against Minnesota in the playoffs when he had probably the most incredible 4th qtr. outside of Reggie Miller I've ever seen in my life. But other than that...he was our 4th Qtr. ghost.

 

[vj9999]

He wasn't the "3rd option" in 2003-04, he was our 1st option, and he had his best season ever....so im not sure how you can say that.

I agree he had his best season that year. I think Chris Paul said it the best when he was asked what to do when Peja gets cold. He said (paraphrasing) "I'll just keep passing to him even more so he can catch fire". No knock on Bibby (I love Bibby just as much), but Bibby would do just the opposite.

I don't love Peja, I just think he was a better player than we give him credit.

I love Peja (as a player of course) and I think he was a better player than we give him credit too. I just learned to accept that there are those that don't like him and think of him as our Judas

 

[VF21]

There are also those who really liked him UNTIL he asked for a trade. Especially since he did it via an Ailene Voisin interview from Europe. It didn't sit well.

I loved watching Peja shoot, I think he was at his very best when Chris and Vlade were still here and suffered once Vlade and then Chris were gone.

Yes, he made some mistakes but he was part of THE TEAM and I'll never forget him.

 

[bozzwell]

Webber's progress as a clucth shooter was very obvious if you were a fan of the team -- national media of course always lagged, but it went like this (and exactly like this):

1)when Webb first arrived, the rep was absolutely true. He didn't want the ball when it mattered. Too many bad experiences I think. It was Vlade who missed the little hook that would have beat Utah back in '99 -- Webb didn't take that shot.

2)But a funny thing happened, and it happened in the 2002 playoffs. Mike Bibby was the big hero, but Chris Webber, who above all wanted a championship, sniffed the title in his grasp and played a helluva series. And yet there were still gaffes -- he still wasn't the clutch player. But the desire was there and he put up some big numbers as the engine while Bibby hit the clutch shots.

3) and then after the disappointment he came out in 2002-03 and wanted that title,. Knew it was right there. Sometime that fall, late November I think, he hit a huge clutch shot. It was remarkable because it was one fo the only game winners I could recall him hitting as a King. And then about a week later he hit a second one. And then he was off and he had about half a dozen of them on the year. Just making those first couple changed his whole outlook/confidence I think. He had finally become that great player. And then just like that, the knee injury happened, and it was over.

4) However even after he came back, Chris Webber wanted that ball at the end of games. He had been robbed of his knee, but the clutch lessons he had learend through the contention years stayed. In his final season with us he hit big game winning/tying shot after big game winning/tying shot.

That was the Webber arc.

There has been no Peja arc. He had a big game vs. either Toronto or the Celtics back in '02 I think. He came up small every playoffs. He choked off his own defense of the 3pt shooting contest. He never had any prolonged streak of taking and making that shot. And he never had the persoinality for it either. He has never had that edge. And of course it is compounded by him not having one on one skills.

You nailed it about Webber. You're little bit off, or incomplete in your assessment of Pedja though. Pedja's clutchosity (or lack thereof) also has an arc. You pretty much described it for Pedja with Sacramento and Indy, and I obviously lack of 1-on-1 game is a big factor. But, since he joined NO that has steadily changed:

- Playing with CP3 you don't need mad 1-on-1 skillz to be a valuable clutch player...
- Any lack of confidence in his own ability to make clutch shots that may have lingered since his days with Kings is long gone. Again thanks to CP3. The kid is brimming with confidence and playing out of this world and he goes out of his way to encourage Pedja on the court and talk him up in the media. When you read what Paul has said about Pedja in interviews following those games where Pedja made big shots or had big 4 quarters this year it's like Paul is talking about Reggie Miller.

It's actually quite an amazing transformation even if the bulk of credit has to go to Paul and Byron Scott for making it happen in the first place. It's a shame though that Pedja is clearly past his prime and only way from here is down.

 

[FakeInjury]

How about this.Q: Why did he leave? A:Traded for Ron. Q: Why was he traded? A: he was going to leave after his contract expired Q: why was he leaving? A: the fans soured on him, and that promotes negativity. Q: why were we soured and negatively responding to Peja? A: He wasn't a go-to scorer (1st option) and was being paid like one

 

[piksi]

How about this.Q: Why did he leave? A:Traded for Ron. Q: Why was he traded? A: he was going to leave after his contract expired Q: why was he leaving? A: the fans soured on him, and that promotes negativity. Q: why were we soured and negatively responding to Peja? A: He wasn't a go-to scorer (1st option) and was being paid like one

not in Sacramento

 

[FakeInjury]

And he is a good person. Peja lacked certain Bird Rights. As great a talent isn't equal to many. And getting as close to Bird as he liked, he liked it. New Orleans has a sweet little team this year.

 

[Bricklayer]

How about this.Q: Why did he leave? A:Traded for Ron. Q: Why was he traded? A: he was going to leave after his contract expired Q: why was he leaving? A: the fans soured on him, and that promotes negativity. Q: why were we soured and negatively responding to Peja? A: He wasn't a go-to scorer (1st option) and was being paid like one

You got he last one wrong.

Q: why were we soured and negatively responding to Peja?
A: because he was built up to be far greater than he was, given the golden boy treatment, set up as the anti-Webber (somehow being one of the better players in history was bad) and annointed as the second coming. It was ridiculous, and either partisan or ignorant depending on the source. The first stage was that people who questioned the hype quickly grew sick of the stupidity on the topic, the shrill claims, the demonization of the rest of the team to benefit a good but not great player. Resistance grew and the negativity toward the shrillness surrounding him began to be reflected on Peja himself, who was still the same guy as before. Stage two was when it became apparent to the rest of the fanbase that Peja was not close to the hype that others, not he, had generated about himself. Peja himself buckled under the weight of unrealistic expectations and wanted to escape. And the fanbase turned on him bitterly in disappointment. They had been promised the golden boy, perfection in sneakers, and they got a softish one dimensional shooter. Ironically many of the people who had cut through the hype earlier were less disappointed in him in the end.