Raymond Felton

[RookieOfTheDay]

Would you send next year's pick plus Dalembert and Landry's expiring to New York for Felton? The Knicks could use Dalembert's expiring to clear cap room for Carmelo and the pick could be thrown in to sweeten the deal.

Felton is 26, a good defender, doesn’t have a terrible contract, and looks like he’s good for about 15 points, 7 assists, 4 rebounds, and 1 steal per game. He could potentially be a perfect fit on The Kings.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

No deal for me. I dont love Felton, and that pick is way too valuable.

 

[rainmaker]

$16M in expiring contracts and a top 4 pick(at the moment) is far too much for Felton. Yes he's been impressive, but how much is the system? We don't know at this point. How long can he keep it up? We don't know, because he has never played at this level before.

And how would that trade even work. He makes just over 7M per, yet we're sending back 16M in expirings plus a top 4 which is worth 3-4M.

 

[Boogie-havoc]

No deal for me.. and I think even if it looks like a nobrainer for the Knicks, they wouldn't do it aswell.

We want to win now, and taking Felton set this team way back, especiely the way he plays this season and appears to be the teams leader together with Amare.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

$16M in expiring contracts and a top 4 pick(at the moment) is far too much for Felton. Yes he's been impressive, but how much is the system? We don't know at this point. How long can he keep it up? We don't know, because he has never played at this level before.

And how would that trade even work. He makes just over 7M per, yet we're sending back 16M in expirings plus a top 4 which is worth 3-4M.

He was good in Charlotte too so it's not just the system. And most importantly, he's a really good defender. When is the last time The Kings had a PG who was a good defender??? The way I see it, they'd really only be giving up the pick because Landry and Dalembert are most likely gone after this season anyways. It works because he'd solve The Kings PG issues and make the team better right away. And the deal would put The Knicks in great position to sign Carmelo in FA and still be in decent shape cap wise.

 

[Bricklayer]

Would you do WHAT!?!

16 mil in ending contracts AND a Top 5 pick better net you a superstar, not a guy with a 12ppg career average.

And no, he wasn't good in Charlotte. Mediocre at best and they were constantly looking to replace him. There is a high HIGH chance that this is largely system related. He can be a good defender though.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Would you do WHAT!?!

16 mil in ending contracts AND a Top 5 pick better net you a superstar, not a guy with a 12ppg career average.

And no, he wasn't good in Charlotte. Mediocre at best and they were constantly looking to replace him. There is a high HIGH chance that this is largely system related. He can be a good defender though.

He's pretty much the same player he was in Charlotte, just add about 3 points a game and 1 assist, no drastic change there. And I think you're kidding yourself if you really think a pick and 2 expiring contracts warrants a superstar.

 

[Bricklayer]

He's pretty much the same player he was in Charlotte, just add about 3 points a game and 1 assist, no drastic change there. And I think you're kidding yourself if you really think a pick and 2 expiring contracts warrants a superstar.

The last time a Top 5 pick got traded that I can recall, without $16million in solid gold enders to back it up, it netted Elton Brand in his prime for the Clippers.


And no, a career 13.0pt 6.5ast on 41% shooting player is not the same as a 17.9pt 8.7ast on .444 shooting guy. And you're trading away an asset (Top 5 pick) that netted us a Tyreke Evans and DeMarcus Cousins the last two seasons to get him.

 

[sidney]

He's pretty much the same player he was in Charlotte, just add about 3 points a game and 1 assist, no drastic change there. And I think you're kidding yourself if you really think a pick and 2 expiring contracts warrants a superstar.

That high of a pick is worth a ton. Would you trade Tyreke or Cousins for Raymond Felton?

 

[rainmaker]

He was good in Charlotte too so it's not just the system. And most importantly, he's a really good defender. When is the last time The Kings had a PG who was a good defender??? The way I see it, they'd really only be giving up the pick because Landry and Dalembert are most likely gone after this season anyways. It works because he'd solve The Kings PG issues and make the team better right away. And the deal would put The Knicks in great position to sign Carmelo in FA and still be in decent shape cap wise.

Felton isn't worth a top 4 pick, let alone top 4 plus 16M in expirings. And no, I wasn't impressed one bit with his career in Charlotte. He's played very well, for 2 months. No where near long enough for me to consider giving up what you would. He's not a great scorer or shooter. You would essentially be giving up all you suggested for a defensive pg. I know you love Felton, but he's not high enough on my list to consider that.We could very well get the player in return who played in Charlotte, not NY, and that wouldn't help us at all. And that is exactly what history would suggest,given we're weighing 2 months in ny vs his entire career in charlotte.

 

[TTown Kings]

A Top 5 pick for RAYMOND FELTON? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Seriously? C'mon now, he's playing well, but a top 5 pick is a top 5 pick. There is no chance in hell I'd trade a top 5 pick for a player of Raymond Felton's caliber. Not saying I wouldn't like him running the point for us, but a top 5 pick for him is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

The last time a Top 5 pick got traded that I can recall, without $16million in solid gold enders to back it up, it netted Elton Brand in his prime for the Clippers.

And The Clippers made out like bandits there, too. The pick turned into Tyson Chandler which goes to prove that the draft is a big time gamble. Unless it's a superstar draft I'd almost always trade a top pick for a proven player in their prime. More often than not, you'll come out on top in the end. Especially when the player you're getting back (Felton in this case) fills an immediate team need.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

A Top 5 pick for RAYMOND FELTON? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Seriously? C'mon now, he's playing well, but a top 5 pick is a top 5 pick. There is no chance in hell I'd trade a top 5 pick for a player of Raymond Felton's caliber. Not saying I wouldn't like him running the point for us, but a top 5 pick for him is absolutely ridiculous.

Top 5 picks often turn into busts. you people act like a top pick is a guaranteed superstar or franchise player, lol. By the way, Felton was a top 5 pick himself.

 

[Bricklayer]

And The Clippers made out like bandits there, too. The pick turned into Tyson Chandler which goes to prove that the draft is a big time gamble. Unless it's a superstar draft I'd almost always trade a top pick for a proven player in their prime. More often than not, you'll come out on top in the end. Especially when the player you're getting back (Felton in this case) fills an immediate team need.

I think you'd find that roughly 30 out of 30 NBA GMs would disagree with you on the mediocrity trumps chance at a star angle.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Would you trade Tyreke or Cousins for Raymond Felton?

Nope because they've shown great potential already. the odds of lucking out and getting the 2nd best player in the draft 3 years in a row are pretty slim, IMO.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

I think you'd find that roughly 30 out of 30 NBA GMs would disagree with you on the mediocrity trumps chance at a star angle.

I think you'd also find that 30 out of 30 GMs would disagree that Felton is mediocre.

 

[sidney]

Nope because they've shown great potential already. the odds of lucking out and getting the 2nd best player in the draft 3 years in a row are pretty slim, IMO.

Petrie has a lot of weaknesses as a GM but drafting is not one of them. I'd keep the pick 100 times out of 100

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

You would essentially be giving up all you suggested for a defensive pg. I know you love Felton, but he's not high enough on my list to consider that.

It's not really that I love Felton, it's that i think a defensive PG of his caliber would be a great fit for The Kings. I'm looking at what i think would fill the team's needs going forward. I think a proven defensive PG could help The Kings more over the next few years than another SF or PF that they have to develop.

 

[bajaden]

Top 5 picks often turn into busts. you people act like a top pick is a guaranteed superstar or franchise player, lol. By the way, Felton was a top 5 pick himself.

Look, you can argue the value of a top five pick anyway you want and make it come out anyway you want. Its purely subjective. But Dalembert and Landry are both proven players, and they also have great value because of their expiring contracts. The point is, your giving up way too much for a player thats still not proven in the NBA. let him put up numbers for three years and then we'll talk. Until then, he is what he is. A nice find for the Knicks. But contrary to what you might think, the system does have a lot to do with how a player is percieved. Hedo goes back to Orlando, and wa la, suddenly he's an effective player again.

One could look at the Knicks and ask the same question that was asked at Phoenix. Is Stoudemire really that good, or is he that good because of Nash? Except now you could reverse it and ask, is Felton really that good, or is he that good because of Stoudemire. I think the question has been answered about Stoudemire, but not Felton. I'd like to have Felton, but I'm not going to give up the much to find out if he's a flash in the pan, or a recepient of playing next to a very good player. Being were doing what if's. Would you still trade that first round pick if I could guarantee you that the pick would be Irving from Duke? Because it could be.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Look, you can argue the value of a top five pick anyway you want and make it come out anyway you want. Its purely subjective. But Dalembert and Landry are both proven players, and they also have great value because of their expiring contracts. The point is, your giving up way too much for a player thats still not proven in the NBA. let him put up numbers for three years and then we'll talk. Until then, he is what he is. A nice find for the Knicks. But contrary to what you might think, the system does have a lot to do with how a player is percieved. Hedo goes back to Orlando, and wa la, suddenly he's an effective player again.

One could look at the Knicks and ask the same question that was asked at Phoenix. Is Stoudemire really that good, or is he that good because of Nash? Except now you could reverse it and ask, is Felton really that good, or is he that good because of Stoudemire. I think the question has been answered about Stoudemire, but not Felton. I'd like to have Felton, but I'm not going to give up the much to find out if he's a flash in the pan, or a recepient of playing next to a very good player. Being were doing what if's. Would you still trade that first round pick if I could guarantee you that the pick would be Irving from Duke? Because it could be.

No, I wouldn't do it if I could guarantee that. But I can't guarantee that and statistically the odds of The King's winding up with him are really not that great. One other plus about Felton, is that he only has a season and a half left on his contract so there's no long term salary risk salary involved if he didn't work out.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

In hindsight, I probably was a little overzealous in throwing in Landry and Dalembert with a pick. I wonder if it would have made any difference in the poll if I'd have said the pick and one of either Landry/Dalembert.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I think that nobody is going to give up this pick unless we do something whacky like roll off 10 in a row.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Something for the folks who are downplaying Felton to consider.

Tony Parker’s careers stats.

16.7 points
3.1 rebounds
5.7 assists
1.0 steals
2.5 turnovers

In 33 minutes

Raymond Felton’s career stats.

13.7 points
3.4 rebounds
6.6 assists
1.5 steals
2.6 turnovers

In 35 minutes

Parker scores more but Raymond rebounds more and gets more assists and steals. Turnovers are about the same. All in all, they’ve put up pretty similar numbers over their careers, yet, Parker is considered an elite PG and felton, well, he’s not considered an elite PG.

My point, you ask? Well, my point is that perception of a player depends HEAVILY on how good the teams they played on were. Had Felton played for The Spurs and Parker for The Bobcats, I suspect that Felton would be regarded higher than he is, even if his numbers were the same. On the flip side, Parker would be regarded lower had he put up the same numbers on The Bobcats.

Basically, what I’m saying, is that Felton is better than you all are making him out to be. He’s good enough to be a starting PG on a contender, and aren’t the Kings hoping to be a contender in a few years? So why not Felton? Who are they going to get that’s a better PG? Probably no one.

 

[mcsluggo]

uhm... that is not entirely exogenous, you know.

On the one side, Tony Parker was on good teams to someextent because he helped MAKE them good teams. Stats only tell part of the story-- results matter also.

On the other side, to the extent that TP is NOT the driving force of the Spur's success, his personal success demonstrates that he manages to put up good numbers even when he is surrounded by other genuine talent (his stats are not at all inflated by not having other options).

personally, I have never really been that high on TP.... but felton has done nothing to indicate he is in TP's class. Might he in the future? sure, of course. But there is nowayinhell that he is worth ANYWHERE NEAR what has been proposed. He is still a gamble, just like a new draft pick

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

uhm... that is not entirely exogenous, you know.

On the one side, Tony Parker was on good teams to someextent because he helped MAKE them good teams. Stats only tell part of the story-- results matter also.

On the other side, to the extent that TP is NOT the driving force of the Spur's success, his personal success demonstrates that he manages to put up good numbers even when he is surrounded by other genuine talent (his stats are not at all inflated by not having other options).

personally, I have never really been that high on TP.... but felton has done nothing to indicate he is in TP's class. Might he in the future? sure, of course. But there is nowayinhell that he is worth ANYWHERE NEAR what has been proposed. He is still a gamble, just like a new draft pick

I'm not claiming that numbers tell the whole story. But they aren't exactly irrelevant, either. You can always argue whether a player made a team good or a team made a player good. My point is simply that Parker being on The Spurs probably led to him being a little overrate and Felton being on The Bobcats probably led to him being a little underrated. As for putting up good numbers when surrounded by genuine talent, i believe that's precisely what Felton is doing this year. In fact, he's putting up the best numbers of his career now that he has some genuine talent to work with. No disrespect to any oh his Charlotte teammates but none of them were as good as good as Stoudemire.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Felton is not worth a high first rounder, not by a long shot. He wouldn't even be as good out of D'Antoni's system.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Felton is not worth a high first rounder, not by a long shot. He wouldn't even be as good out of D'Antoni's system.

First rounders are big time gambles. They net a bust more often than they do a superstar. Basically by giving up a pick for Felton you're trading a door that could have coal, silver, or gold behind it for a door that's guaranteed to have silver behind it. Yes you're giving up your shot at gold but you're eliminating the possibility of coming up with coal, too.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Something for the folks who are downplaying Felton to consider.

Tony Parker’s careers stats.

16.7 points
3.1 rebounds
5.7 assists
1.0 steals
2.5 turnovers

In 33 minutes

Raymond Felton’s career stats.

13.7 points
3.4 rebounds
6.6 assists
1.5 steals
2.6 turnovers

In 35 minutes

You've left out at least one crucial stat here: FG%. Felton is a career .413 shooter, while Parker is a career .491 shooter. That's a huge swing. Parker has Felton beat by almost 50 points in TS% and over 60 points in eFG%. And it's likely his shooting percentages alone that lead Parker to have a career WS/48 of 0.144 (0.1 is average, by definition) while Felton has a career WS/48 of 0.069.

 

[kennadog]

First rounders are big time gambles. They net a bust more often than they do a superstar. Basically by giving up a pick for Felton you're trading a door that could have coal, silver, or gold behind it for a door that's guaranteed to have silver behind it. Yes you're giving up your shot at gold but you're eliminating the possibility of coming up with coal, too.

We're discussing probable high first rounders, though. You can't make that same statement of risk about a top five pick. Far less of a gamble.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

You've left out at least one crucial stat here: FG%. Felton is a career .413 shooter, while Parker is a career .491 shooter. That's a huge swing. Parker has Felton beat by almost 50 points in TS% and over 60 points in eFG%. And it's likely his shooting percentages alone that lead Parker to have a career WS/48 of 0.144 (0.1 is average, by definition) while Felton has a career WS/48 of 0.069.

Very fair point. I'd point out though that Felton's FG% is no worse than Billups' FG%. Plus, Felton's FG% has risen steadily over his career, from about 38% his first two seasons in the league to about 45% over the last two seasons. He'll never be the shooter that Parker is (few are) but his shot has improved a lot as he's gotten a little older.