Potential Trade with Hornets

[Sptsjunkie]

Pure speculation/ However, watching the Hornets again tonight against the Lakers, their lack of another player outside of Paul and West who can create their own shot and another ball handler outside of Paul is very apparent. In a trade that seems to make a ton of sense:

Hornets get:

John Salmons

Kings get:

Mike James (6.2 mil expiring contract)
1st round pick

A similar trade could be made with us gettin Julien Wright and throwing in another low priced player.

Why the Hornets do it: Salmons gives them another player who can handle the ball, create his own offence and score when Paul needs a rest. His improved jumper would make him more compatable with NO's first unit when the need arose. He would also give them another wing defender. A late first round pick doesn't do the Hornets much good.

Why the Kings do it: This one is a no brainer. Eliminate 3 years of mid-level salary. Open up more time for the young players. Add another first round pick, giving them 3 total in this draft.

Thoughts?

 

[Arby's Roast Beef]

I love Wright's game, but as much as we need a young defensive minded athlete, I don't think it's worth swapping SFs, particularly since it's not a position of need. Besides, the Hornets are grooming him. It's tough to get a guy like that.

It's essentially dumping Salmons for the first trade, and I'm not sure we want to do that--I mean, we do get a first round pick, but come on, Salmons has more value than that.

 

[pkballr]

Only problem I see is the Hornets not having a back up point guard. Maybe tossing in Douby? Maybe sucker the Hornets out of Wright?

 

[Arby's Roast Beef]

Only problem I see is the Hornets not having a back up point guard. Maybe tossing in Douby? Maybe sucker the Hornets out of Wright?

Douby's not a point guard. If Byron Scott's already pissed at Mike James's shoot first antics, wait till he sees Douby.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

Only problem I see is the Hornets not having a back up point guard. Maybe tossing in Douby? Maybe sucker the Hornets out of Wright?

At this point Salmons is more of a PG than James is. James is done. Salmons can already bring the ball up against pressure as well as James. He can initiate the offense better and at this point Salmons is probably a better three point shooter too. Keep in mind, Salmons would only need to play PG for about 4-8 minutes a game.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

I love Wright's game, but as much as we need a young defensive minded athlete, I don't think it's worth swapping SFs, particularly since it's not a position of need. Besides, the Hornets are grooming him. It's tough to get a guy like that.

It's essentially dumping Salmons for the first trade, and I'm not sure we want to do that--I mean, we do get a first round pick, but come on, Salmons has more value than that.

It makes for a good debate. Don't underestimate a first round pick. Even a late one. We could gamble on a player we like. Pair it with our first rounder to move up a couple of spots. Trade with another team for a future first. Use as part of a bigger trade for a superstar.

This would also get a 5-6 mil contract off the books for '10, giving us more flexibility. Not too mention freeing up more time for Garcia and Greene. Salmons is not old, but won't be in his prime when we are ready to contend unless we really get lucky with our lottery pick stepping in and being and immeidate superstar.

 

[beb0p]

Salmons doesn't really fit their system. Plus, the Hornets are covered at the wing spot with Peja, Mo Pete, Posey, Bulter, and Julian Wright.

 

[=LarryLegend=]

I dont understand why alot of kings fans dont like defensive players. we dont have Bill Ron William Artest...and John is our best on ball defender....so everybody wants to trade him??? i dont get it.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I love Wright's game, but as much as we need a young defensive minded athlete, I don't think it's worth swapping SFs, particularly since it's not a position of need. Besides, the Hornets are grooming him. It's tough to get a guy like that.

It's essentially dumping Salmons for the first trade, and I'm not sure we want to do that--I mean, we do get a first round pick, but come on, Salmons has more value than that.

I doubt that.

 

[Vlade4GM]

It makes for a good debate. Don't underestimate a first round pick. Even a late one. We could gamble on a player we like. Pair it with our first rounder to move up a couple of spots. Trade with another team for a future first. Use as part of a bigger trade for a superstar.

This would also get a 5-6 mil contract off the books for '10, giving us more flexibility. Not too mention freeing up more time for Garcia and Greene. Salmons is not old, but won't be in his prime when we are ready to contend unless we really get lucky with our lottery pick stepping in and being and immeidate superstar.

Well, the nice thing about having multiple picks in the first round is that it's easier to package them in order to trade up.

 

[Bricklayer]

Thing is though that that first rounder is pretty much a second rounder. Its going to be maybe 27, 28, 29, 30, that sort of thing. Now if think they are ready to make their run and they wanted to give us Julian Wright, hey, I'm listening. I'm all about stacking the young talent. But otherwise I think John might have enough value to a variety of contenders/pretenders that we could do at least a little better than an expiring and a late late first rounder.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

I dont understand why alot of kings fans dont like defensive players. we dont have Bill Ron William Artest...and John is our best on ball defender....so everybody wants to trade him??? i dont get it.

I actually love defensive players. That's my MO when I play, I have always been the stopper and so I may even over-value defence. I think the point is that John has trade value to a lot of potential contenders. However, he actually hurts the development of our young players, plays the easiest position to replace and will likley be slipping in value by the time we are ready to contend. Furthermore, losing him will almost certainly guarentee us more ping pong balls precisely because he does add value to our team.

The trade is nothing against John. It's looking to continue moving the team in the right direction for the future.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

Salmons doesn't really fit their system. Plus, the Hornets are covered at the wing spot with Peja, Mo Pete, Posey, Bulter, and Julian Wright.

I'd be interested in hearing your take on why. What about their system do you think John would struggle with?

I know John is best with the ball in his hands, but he would have that opportunity with the Hornets. And he's a much much better pure shooter than he was his first year with us. Two years ago he would have been a disaster for NO, but this year he would help them a lot. Having Salmons, Peja and Posey to rotate as their 2/3 with John backing up Paul at the 1 would be a big upgrade for them. Right now, Paul and West are the only players who can create their own shot. Teams like the Lakers and Spurs are able to exploit that.

 

[beb0p]

I'd be interested in hearing your take on why. What about their system do you think John would struggle with?

I know John is best with the ball in his hands, but he would have that opportunity with the Hornets. And he's a much much better pure shooter than he was his first year with us. Two years ago he would have been a disaster for NO, but this year he would help them a lot. Having Salmons, Peja and Posey to rotate as their 2/3 with John backing up Paul at the 1 would be a big upgrade for them. Right now, Paul and West are the only players who can create their own shot. Teams like the Lakers and Spurs are able to exploit that.

The ball is always going to be in Paul's hands with three guys spacing the floor and Chandler occasionally inside. The Hornets prefer wings who can catch and shoot, in other words, finish the shots that Paul created. Salmons is not a catch and shoot guy, he doesn't play well off the ball, he needs the ball in his hands which means taking the ball off Paul's hands, and worse of all, Salmons tends to kill the shot clock while he tries to create for himself. Plus, he doesn't play well off the bench so you have to start Salmons and leave Posey, Butler and Mo Pete fighting for backup minutes. The Hornets prefer to have Posey on the floor at crunch time anyway so Salmons is basically a 25 min player, so why even bother?

It's possible that the Hornets don't mind having a SG who can create his own shot, but it'd be more in line of a Kevin Martin (who makes quick decisions and can play off the ball) instead of a Salmon (who holds the ball for 10 seconds while he figures out whether or not he has a shot).

The fact is no championship-aspring team is going to let John Salmons dominate the ball. But dominating the ball is the only way John knows how to play. The coachs for the Hornes, Cavs, or other teams are not going to tell Chris Paul or Lebron, "I'm going to take the ball away from you and give it to John Salmons so he can score some baskets..."

 

[Sptsjunkie]

Thing is though that that first rounder is pretty much a second rounder. Its going to be maybe 27, 28, 29, 30, that sort of thing. Now if think they are ready to make their run and they wanted to give us Julian Wright, hey, I'm listening. I'm all about stacking the young talent. But otherwise I think John might have enough value to a variety of contenders/pretenders that we could do at least a little better than an expiring and a late late first rounder.

I agree. You'll see I noted both possibilities (pick or Wright). This trade came out of watching the Hornets again last night and thinking how much they could use a player like Salmons. Potentially there may be another team that would want Salmons, but I think this is a realistic trade that would help both teams. Realisticly, any team that would give up a young player, pick and/or cap space for Salmons would have to be close to the upper echlon of the league. There are so many mediocre teams stacked together that we will likely be looking at a pick in the mid to late 20s.

Let's look at the teams that might want Salmons:

Realistically - the Hornets, Mavericks, Spurs, Jazz, Suns, Magic, Cavs, Raptors and Celtics are the only teams that would want him.

Of those, I'm not sure the Suns really need him, only that they had interest in the past. I don't think the Mavs would give up much for him. And the Spurs might be in more wait and see mode with Parker and Manu than anything else.

Potentially a trade with the Cavs, Raptors or Magic would yield a slightly better draft pick, but there's no guarentee of that. Trading with the Jazz or Celtics yields the same problem.

I am all for getting a better pick or young player out of a deal. However, unless there is a young player on one of these teams we can get, the difference in draft picks are fairly negligible. If we can get this deal with the Hornets, I say take it.

 

[bigd]

I would like to see us go after Szserbiak with Salmons. Maybe Kenny Thomas or Mikki Moore and Salmons for Wally and a 1st round pick.

I would almost rather get rid of Moore because we need to make room for our young bigs. Does Cleveland have any good young players to throw in? A late 1st round pick isn't that exciting.

 

[Prince_XY]

.............I think the point is that John has trade value to a lot of potential contenders. However, he actually hurts the development of our young players, plays the easiest position to replace and will likley be slipping in value by the time we are ready to contend. Furthermore, losing him will almost certainly guarentee us more ping pong balls precisely because he does add value to our team.

The trade is nothing against John. It's looking to continue moving the team in the right direction for the future.

Exactly how I see it.

Salmons starting at #3 will always result to a some problem match-up disadvantageous to the Kings. He is just too small at #3 compared to the big #3 of other elite teams. I would rather gamble on Thompson and Greene at #3 now. We need to address this problem, if we hope to have a championship caliber team in the future.

If we lose Martin ( God forbids ), then I have no problem with Salmons staying as a King, but he has to play/start at #2.

So, by all means please trade Salmons and Moore now!

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

no thanks.. there first wont be much better than our second.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

The ball is always going to be in Paul's hands with three guys spacing the floor and Chandler occasionally inside. The Hornets prefer wings who can catch and shoot, in other words, finish the shots that Paul created. Salmons is not a catch and shoot guy, he doesn't play well off the ball, he needs the ball in his hands which means taking the ball off Paul's hands, and worse of all, Salmons tends to kill the shot clock while he tries to create for himself. Plus, he doesn't play well off the bench so you have to start Salmons and leave Posey, Butler and Mo Pete fighting for backup minutes. The Hornets prefer to have Posey on the floor at crunch time anyway so Salmons is basically a 25 min player, so why even bother?

It's possible that the Hornets don't mind having a SG who can create his own shot, but it'd be more in line of a Kevin Martin (who makes quick decisions and can play off the ball) instead of a Salmon (who holds the ball for 10 seconds while he figures out whether or not he has a shot).

The fact is no championship-aspring team is going to let John Salmons dominate the ball. But dominating the ball is the only way John knows how to play. The coachs for the Hornes, Cavs, or other teams are not going to tell Chris Paul or Lebron, "I'm going to take the ball away from you and give it to John Salmons so he can score some baskets..."

I agree with your concern. It would be mine too if I was the Hornets. However, Salmons has become a much better pure shooter (catch and shoot) and has shown effectiveness creating this season without having to dominate the ball. At his worst he still does dominate it. I think that issue was exaggerated more last season because we were losing and John was pouting. I think on a Hornets team that is playing for a championship and where only two other players even have the ability to create their own shot the problem would be minimized.

 

[beb0p]

I agree with your concern. It would be mine too if I was the Hornets. However, Salmons has become a much better pure shooter (catch and shoot) and has shown effectiveness creating this season without having to dominate the ball. At his worst he still does dominate it. I think that issue was exaggerated more last season because we were losing and John was pouting. I think on a Hornets team that is playing for a championship and where only two other players even have the ability to create their own shot the problem would be minimized.

If the question is whether Salmons can make the Hornets a little bit better in some circumstance and gives them more options, the answer is yes. If the question is whether Salmons is the missing piece that will get the Hornets a championship, the answer is unequivocal no. And at this point, the only player that the Hornets will be committed to is someone who will take them to the next level.

The difference between "getting better" and actually being "good" is huge. Sure, Salmons has improved his 3-pt stroke, but is he a good 3-pt shooter? No. Salmons has shown a more willingness to pass, but is he a selfless player? No. Can Salmons be effective with Paul being the only one allowed to dominate the rock? Probably not.

So why would the Hornets take a gamble when nothing is broken? It's not like they have problem scoring or they don't have good SGs on the team.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

If the question is whether Salmons can make the Hornets a little bit better in some circumstance and gives them more options, the answer is yes. If the question is whether Salmons is the missing piece that will get the Hornets a championship, the answer is unequivocal no. And at this point, the only player that the Hornets will be committed to is someone who will take them to the next level.

The things is, I think Salmons could be the difference maker who could get NO a championship. I love the Hornets and having watched them a bit, I am just not sure they are champions as constructed. On the plus side, they have one of the top 3 best players in basketball who can dominate a game and they have a fanstastic starting 5 (more important in the playoffs). However, they have 0 depth and they only have two players who can create their own shot. Against a good defensive team with a good coach, that will kill them over a 7 game series. Salmons helps with both of those problems. And plays good peremiter D in addition to that.

I also think he can be a difference maker this year, because the top teams in the league simply are not that good. Right now the Lakers are the favorites. However, their vaunted depth will mean less in the playoffs and Kobe seems to have clearly lost a step. He's still a star, but good defenders turn him into a jump shooter. Boston is still very good but their top 2 are another year older and they will miss Posey. Then Utah, Cleveland, San Antonio, and New Orleans are all just a level below those two but have glaring flaws. And Houston, Orlando, Phoenix, Dallas, Atlanta, Toronto and Portland are more pretenders this year who could conceivably make a run if they catch absolute fire.

This feels like another year where a fluke team like the Shaq-Wade heat could win the championship. The Hornets are legitimate contenders this season, but I cannot see them winning a championship without another piece. Preferably another player who can create his own shot. Salmons certainly would not guarentee the Hornets a championship, but he could put them over the top.

 

[kingsnation]

Hornets... have 0 depth... Right now the Lakers are the favorites. However, their vaunted depth will mean less in the playoffs

If depth means "less" in the playoffs, then why would NO need Salmons in the first place???

and btw, you said that the Celtics will miss Posey this year. Well, guess who has Posey? Yeah, the Hornets. The team that you said has no depth...

 

[Sptsjunkie]

If depth means "less" in the playoffs, then why would NO need Salmons in the first place???

and btw, you said that the Celtics will miss Posey this year. Well, guess who has Posey? Yeah, the Hornets. The team that you said has no depth...

Ok, first, yes the Celtics will miss Posey and he does make the Hornets better. I really like that signing. However, that still makes the Hornets top 5 (regardless of who they start) Paul, Posey, Peja, West and Chandler. Beyond that they have Wright, Butler, Mo Pete, James and Hilton Armstong. That is one of the worst benches in the league.

Second, depth does mean less in the playoffs as you can play your starters more. So having a strong starting five and a viable superstar takes on more importance. However, that doesn't mean you can have 0 depth and no viable backups.

 

[Bricklayer]

As an aside, after seeing the Hornets in person, and having John put the whooping on them personally, I am even more of the opinion hold their asses to the fire and say "give us Julian Wright and your #1 and we'll fix your swingmen mess by sending you Salmons. Creates on his own, defends, and will help keep CP3 from wearing down by just never letting him touch the ball."

 

[Smills91]

John Salmons is ABSOLUTELY the perfect fit for the Hornets. His ability to play the 1-2-3, score independently of Paul's playmaking and his lockdown defense makes him a great fit.

Salmons plays 10 minutes at the 1, 20-25 minutes at the 2 and/or 3 and then Peja/Posey/Peterson split time at the other 70ish minutes on the wings.

Salmons for Butler/Wright makes a lot of sense for both teams on MULTIPLE levels. Maybe the Hornets turn Peterson into Tinsley for more help at the 1?

 

[Sptsjunkie]

John Salmons is ABSOLUTELY the perfect fit for the Hornets. His ability to play the 1-2-3, score independently of Paul's playmaking and his lockdown defense makes him a great fit.

Salmons plays 10 minutes at the 1, 20-25 minutes at the 2 and/or 3 and then Peja/Posey/Peterson split time at the other 70ish minutes on the wings.

Salmons for Butler/Wright makes a lot of sense for both teams on MULTIPLE levels. Maybe the Hornets turn Peterson into Tinsley for more help at the 1?

Agree with both you and Brick and the more the Hornets keep losing the more we might be able to get from them (both Wright and a #1). I keep trying to sneak Mikki into the deal since they need another backup big besides Hilton "walking -" Armstrong. The only problem is Mikki is a terrible fit for their style since he has some of the worst hands in the league.

 

[piksi]

Salmons can't play without the ball and if he went to Hornets - he would barely see it.

 

[hammystyle]

Agree with both you and Brick and the more the Hornets keep losing the more we might be able to get from them (both Wright and a #1). I keep trying to sneak Mikki into the deal since they need another backup big besides Hilton "walking -" Armstrong. The only problem is Mikki is a terrible fit for their style since he has some of the worst hands in the league.

I think Mikki would be a great fit for the Hornets. He'd play off Paul for jumpers.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

Salmons can't play without the ball and if he went to Hornets - he would barely see it.

That's the debate, but I am not certain about it. Salmons has greatly improved his jump shot, not only off the dribble, but also as a set shooter. He is also good at pump faking because of that and getting to the hoop. I know that last season Salmons had a lot of problems when he was not dominating the ball. This might simply be because we were a bad team and Salmons wanted his stats and his touches. If Salmons would accept a secondary role to play for a team with championship aspirations he would be a good fit. I think he has the skill set. I don't know if he has the humility.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

I think Mikki would be a great fit for the Hornets. He'd play off Paul for jumpers.

I think the problem is that he can't catch the ball well. Paul likes to rifle passes inside and out when he drives. I have watched Mikki blow way too many assists. He is in the same infamous club as Kwame Brown and Duane Causewell in that regards. Now, for 10 minutes a night off the bench, the Hornets might live with that over Hilton Armstong.