Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
perfectly willing to move Keon if and only if Caruso is coming back in the move lol
Potential Free agent/trade/sign tracker
- Thread starter iowamcnabb
- Start date
Hell no!
My whole thing with LaVine is that he's a toxic contract right now. I think he's still probably a pretty decent player, but at his age/cost just makes him one of the least valuable players in the league. It's the sort of deal that you need assets coming back to take on.
Add in Caruso, one of the most impactful role players in the NBA. Now that makes the LaVine bet quite a bit more palatable to take on. And just the sheer joy of a Caruso/Keon defensive back-court would be worth the price of admission.
Padrino
All-Star
I still hate the idea of acquiring LaVine, particularly given his injury history, but if Chicago is willing to part with Caruso in order to get off of LaVine's salary, it becomes a lot more interesting as an acquisition to me. That said, I'd rather let go of Davion in this instance. Fox/Caruso/Ellis would be a very disruptive backcourt, defensively.
Padrino
All-Star
Hah. Beat me to it!
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Probably should’ve specified that I’m not okay losing Keon for Lavine lol. But bringing in Caruso could make Keon moveable in another move to a team looking for “young guys” for their stars in a rebuild.
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iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
Is there a path for Keon Ellis to be just as good as Caruso? If he plays the same level of defense he played at the end of this year for a full season? He’s trending towards being a comparable shooter given this season and the prior year at Stockton. I’d say it’s in the realm of possibilities
If Monk is leaving - I’m interested in adding Caruso and Lavine for Huerter, Sasha and maybe Davion.
If we could add Jalen Smith from the Pacers in a separate transaction and still have the 13th pick - I’d consider that a decent off-season.
But I’m still hoping that Monk re-signs.
If we could add Jalen Smith from the Pacers in a separate transaction and still have the 13th pick - I’d consider that a decent off-season.
But I’m still hoping that Monk re-signs.
Would not shock me at all if Keon is already as good and shows it in a full season next year.
But 2 Keon Ellis's, or 2 Alex Caruso's is a very good thing. We should try and get that.
OK, so if we were going to try to trade for both LaVine and Caruso, how dow we do it, and where does it leave us?
LaVine is at $43,031,940
Caruso is at $9,890,000
To trade for both together ($52,921,940) would require that we send out $42,137,552. Since we are assuming that both Barnes ($18,000,000) and Huerter ($16,830,357) are obviously gone in this scenario, our initial outlay here would be $34,830,357. This leaves us $7,307,195 short. To reach that level, we'd have to add in Keegan (please no) or Lyles (not ideal) or pick and choose one player from Column A (Sasha/Davion/Duarte) AND one player from Column B (Keon/Colby). So, for instance, Duarte+Colby works.
BUT
The smarter way would be to break it down into two separate deals, one for LaVine and one for Caruso. For the LaVine deal we would have to send out $34,225,552. Barnes+Huerter covers that by several hundred thousand dollars. For the Caruso deal we would have to send out $4,820,000, which would mean any one of the players from Column A above would work and we don't have to send Colby. So let's call it Duarte (Davion is looking too valuable, though perhaps we could include him in lieu of picks; Sasha probably wants out but as we are trading to get smaller here we might suddenly have playing time for him).
OK, so we're sending out Barnes/Huerter/Duarte ($40,724,125) for LaVine and Caruso ($52,921,940) for a net gain of $12,198,815 in salary. Importantly, because of the expanded trade exception we used here, we are hard-capped at the apron for '24-'25. That apron is at $178,655,000. Our team salary with our new players is $163,730,839 for 10 players. We will have to add #13 ($4,950,480) if we keep it, and two more players to fill out the 13-man. Barring any moves to significantly reduce salary we will only have a bit under $15M total to get that all done. Monk is basically gone under this scenario.
OK, that said, let's look at the 10 players we'd have under contract, arranged as best as can be:
Fox/Davion
Caruso/Keon
LaVine/Colby
Keegan/Sasha
Domas/Lyles
We'll presumably have Slawson, Ford, and likely #45 on two-way deals.
This team is pretty small. If you're asking me, the #13 pick here would need to go to a PF/C who is ready to play. As would be no surprise to those who have paid attention to my thoughts on this draft, for me that player would be Edey, who we would ask to step directly into the backup 5 role and push Lyles up into the backup 4, freeing us up to try to trade Sasha if he still wants out. I really can't see us moving Lyles up into the starting 4, and bumping Keegan and LaVine up to the 3/2 because that leaves a bench with Davion, Caruso, and Keon - completely wasting all of that perimeter defense by having large stretches with none of it on the floor.
LaVine is at $43,031,940
Caruso is at $9,890,000
To trade for both together ($52,921,940) would require that we send out $42,137,552. Since we are assuming that both Barnes ($18,000,000) and Huerter ($16,830,357) are obviously gone in this scenario, our initial outlay here would be $34,830,357. This leaves us $7,307,195 short. To reach that level, we'd have to add in Keegan (please no) or Lyles (not ideal) or pick and choose one player from Column A (Sasha/Davion/Duarte) AND one player from Column B (Keon/Colby). So, for instance, Duarte+Colby works.
BUT
The smarter way would be to break it down into two separate deals, one for LaVine and one for Caruso. For the LaVine deal we would have to send out $34,225,552. Barnes+Huerter covers that by several hundred thousand dollars. For the Caruso deal we would have to send out $4,820,000, which would mean any one of the players from Column A above would work and we don't have to send Colby. So let's call it Duarte (Davion is looking too valuable, though perhaps we could include him in lieu of picks; Sasha probably wants out but as we are trading to get smaller here we might suddenly have playing time for him).
OK, so we're sending out Barnes/Huerter/Duarte ($40,724,125) for LaVine and Caruso ($52,921,940) for a net gain of $12,198,815 in salary. Importantly, because of the expanded trade exception we used here, we are hard-capped at the apron for '24-'25. That apron is at $178,655,000. Our team salary with our new players is $163,730,839 for 10 players. We will have to add #13 ($4,950,480) if we keep it, and two more players to fill out the 13-man. Barring any moves to significantly reduce salary we will only have a bit under $15M total to get that all done. Monk is basically gone under this scenario.
OK, that said, let's look at the 10 players we'd have under contract, arranged as best as can be:
Fox/Davion
Caruso/Keon
LaVine/Colby
Keegan/Sasha
Domas/Lyles
We'll presumably have Slawson, Ford, and likely #45 on two-way deals.
This team is pretty small. If you're asking me, the #13 pick here would need to go to a PF/C who is ready to play. As would be no surprise to those who have paid attention to my thoughts on this draft, for me that player would be Edey, who we would ask to step directly into the backup 5 role and push Lyles up into the backup 4, freeing us up to try to trade Sasha if he still wants out. I really can't see us moving Lyles up into the starting 4, and bumping Keegan and LaVine up to the 3/2 because that leaves a bench with Davion, Caruso, and Keon - completely wasting all of that perimeter defense by having large stretches with none of it on the floor.
While I don't like LaVine when we start talking them throwing in Caruso and it only costing Barnes, Huerter and filler we can roll the dice and basically treat LaVine as cap filler for Keon and Keegan if it doesn't work out we move him as an expiring under what should become an even bigger cap for picks or whatever it is we need.
Vivek seemed willing to pay the tax for LaVine too.
While I am not in love with this, if we lose Monk and keep our pick in this scenario, I can at least see the upside if LaVine can stay healthy.
Vivek seemed willing to pay the tax for LaVine too.
While I am not in love with this, if we lose Monk and keep our pick in this scenario, I can at least see the upside if LaVine can stay healthy.
Yeah, I think the presumption with this deal is Monk is 100% gone already
Jdbraver137
Bench
Chicago didn’t even want a top 10 pick plus a future 1st for Caruso.
In the scenario laid out with those 10 players, I don’t believe we are better.
In my eyes this is a bit of a reactionary move to Monk walking. You certainly don't do it before the draft. And if Monk walks you might also try to hit in free agency with the MLE first.
I think we have a few players that dangled with Huerter or Barnes might be more attractive for a 20million salary type player that is still good and just needs a change of scenery.
This is the homerun swing if the owner demands Monte "do something big" that at least could drive home the runner on third if it falls flat. As opposed to shipping off multiple draft picks and mortgaging your future to make the swing.
Jdbraver137
Bench
If lavine can play at a high level we are definetly better. Especially running guys off the perimeter
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Agreed, hell no. Keon could be every bit as valuable or more than Caruso. It's a gamble but worth it if Keon isn't involved.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
They will do whatever he wants. This is where giving less than optimal value for Randle might pay off.
I know Lavine is an offensive talent. Terrible contract aside, the question I keep thinking about is why aren’t the Bulls better with him? They seem to flourish when he’s out.
If we traded both Duarte and Davion, would we still be able to afford Malik (either because we wouldn’t be hard capped or we’d have enough under the hard cap to sign him)? If so, that seems more ideal, if we think Malik can be resigned. You don’t really have much need for Davion if you get Caruso. Start Fox/Keon and Let Caruso/Monk play off the bench. Caruso gets the Davion minutes, plus some extra minutes in three guard lineups with Fox and Monk/Ellis that we couldn’t play with Davion because he’s so small.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Bad fit? Expecting him to be a great 1st/2nd option and it didn't pay off? These are all the reasons why he should be free. Sorry Bulls.
Jdbraver137
Bench
We are bidding against other teams, it really has nothing to do with the bulls. They will take the best deal possible. You can’t just offer our garbage in trades and expect to beat other teams. You have to target a player you think is the one to move the needle and do what it takes to get them.Bad fit? Expecting him to be a great 1st/2nd option and it didn't pay off? These are all the reasons why he should be free. Sorry Bulls.
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/sacramento-kings/cap/_/year/2024
Here's our cap table, we're 9 million over the cap so we'd have to dump almost 30 million in salary and all our holds to offer him ~20 million.
If I understand it correctly.
The hard cap at the first apron happens because of the "Expanded" traded player exception. We would have to design a trade with Chicago that was within $250K on each side to avoid that. I don't see a way to do that in a LaVine+Caruso trade. We could technically send all three (Davion/Duarte/Sasha) and take in less salary, which would not hard cap us, but Chicago would have to accept a 2-for-5 trade which just seems really unlikely. Plus, we'd have a lot of work to do - only nine players and that's assuming Monk signs.
The question is whether Chicago would actually take on Barnes/Huerter/Davion/Duarte in that deal. We would have a bit more headroom - apron at $178,655,000, team salary at $157,279,962 for 9 players, but if you're giving $17M of that $21M headroom for Monk, then we've got $4M for three or four more players, and that doesn't work - and we'll have had to get rid of #13 as well. The cost for LaVine/Monk/Caruso is extremely steep. Maybe if we were to also shed Sasha for a player with a live team option who we would then cut...but we're starting to get into really handwaving territory here.
As PDX said, the LaVine/Caruso idea seems to be one that only works if we miss out on Monk - LaVine effectively being the very expensive Monk replacement, but the salary cap rules just aren't really going to let us get away with both Monk and LaVine+Caruso.
For Monk, we're going to offer a contract using Early Bird rights, it's going to come to $17M and change per year. There's not going to be any consideration given to somehow getting under the salary cap far enough to use cap space to give him more.
Hoovtrain
All-Star
still trying to understand how they are in such bad shape cap wise. I get Sabonis and Fox make coin….i dunno . See a lot of other teams with much bigger contracts have space available
twslam07
All-Star
I think the trade would be…
Harrison Barnes
Kevin Huerter
Sasha Vezenkov
Chris Duarte
for
Zach LaVine
Alex Caruso
Torrey Craig (could remove him if he opts out)
Now I’m on the record for being against a LaVine trade mainly because 1) it looks like we already have a great starting SG on a heck of a deal (Ellis) and 2) I want to be adding defensive, two way players around Fox & Sabonis
Having said that, it would be interesting to have a collection of Fox, Mitchell, Ellis, and Caruso harassing opposing offenses each night (not to mention Murray on the wing) and perhaps it allows us to get away with 1) adding a non-defensive, “star” SG and 2) not having good length at SF, PF, and C (since I’m assuming we’d be starting LaVine, Murray, and Sabonis) at those positions.
I could see this being sort of a last resort for McNair. If McNair wasn’t able to move #13 for an upgrade AND if Monk walks in FA, perhaps McNair gets desperate enough to make such a deal.
I could see the minutes rotation breaking down to something like this…
PG - Fox (34) / Mitchell (14)
SG - Ellis (26) / LaVine (12) / Caruso (10)
SF - LaVine (20) / Caruso (16) / Murray (12)
PF - Murray (20) / Lyles (16) / Craig (12)
C - Sabonis (34) / Len (10) / Lyles (4)
Fox = 34 min
Sabonis = 34 min
LaVine = 32 min
Murray = 32 min
Ellis = 26 min
Caruso = 26 min
Lyles = 20 min
Mitchell = 14 min
Craig = 12 min
Len = 10 min
…that’s just too many “small ball” minutes for my liking, and I don’t like the idea of our starting lineup being a “small ball” lineup either. I still think it makes more sense to target someone like Grant vs. another SG.
It's literally the new CBA and nothing else.
Maybe the next TV contract will open a ton of space. But it's why those of us who have been following the cap closely and all the new rules and restrictions are looking at those two aprons closely. Before it was just lines for how much deep pocket owners will pay in luxury tax fines but now there are roster rule restrictions that go beyond fines.
When you add our payroll plus our cap holds we are 22nd in the league. That's why people can still accuse us of being cheap even though we're handcuffed.
