Potential Free agent/trade/sign tracker

[twslam07]

Monk and Fox can play together the problem is and always will be Derozan. You can’t have a third ball dominant player that guy should be a wing defender even a guy like Cam Johnson would work. That’s enough defense to work with an elite offense but y’all love the 35 year old iso scorer

Sure Fox and Monk can play together, but the question is how do we build a formidable team knowing the roster and assets we have at our disposal?

If you add a guy like Herb Jones at SF, I’m sure the defense would be fine if you start Fox, Monk, Jones, Murray, and Sabonis. But when you survey the NBA landscape, how realistic is it that we can add a great/elite defender at SF? I don’t think it’s very likely.

You know what would be a much easier way to build a balanced roster and improve our defense? Start the elite defender we already have at SG and have him close out games for us. Voila! Our defense is all of a sudden much better.

As for DeRozan, I don’t like him better than Monk. In a vacuum, I’d rather have Monk than DeRozan, but the reason I suggested trading Monk is largely due to who else we have on the roster (Ellis and Carter).

Let’s try explaining this a different way to see if it resonates…let’s say the only guards we had on our roster were Fox, Monk, McLaughlin, and C. Jones, and let’s say we had DeRozan, Murray, Herb Jones, and Jarace Walker at forward. You best believe in this scenario, I’d be looking to move DeRozan knowing he’s blocking an elite defender from starting (Herb Jones) while also knowing we have another young forward who projects as a terrific fit with our core (Jarace Walker). As you can probably tell, I’m equating Keon Ellis to Herb Jones and Devin Carter to Jarace Walker to illustrate my point that it’s more about our roster construction and less about the specific player.

As for your proposed solution of adding Cam Johnson and starting Fox, Monk, Johnson, Murray, and Sabonis, I think you’re either 1) significantly overrating Cam Johnson’s defense or 2) significantly underrating Ellis’ defense. Considering you’re a Kings fan and have seen Ellis play plenty of times, I’d venture to guess it’s #1.

Johnson is an average defender (above average at best). He’s nowhere near the defensive impact of guys like Keon Ellis, Herb Jones, Alex Caruso, Jalen Suggs, the Thompson twins, etc. Johnson is ideally the guy you have defend the weaker offensive option between SF and PF but also don’t feel like he’s some major defensive liability out there.

In the scenario I posted above, it not only resulted in us being able to start (and close) games with an elite defensive game changer on the floor (Ellis) but it also resulted in another marginal defensive upgrade by replacing DeRozan with Johnson in the starting unit.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

That concerns you “the most?” Personally, I’d have a lot of other things that concern me most about this team but to each their own.

I’m not too concerned with Fox’s approach of dialing up his defense in crunch time, during the playoffs, etc. and spending more of his energy attacking on the offensive end especially if we pair him with a guard who can take the defensive load. Lucky for us, we already have 2 guards on this roster that fit that description.

Not about the team, about Fox as a player. The glaring example was falling asleep at home against Detroit and allowing a 4 point play to lose, when the team was desperately in need of a win. For me, franchise player's don't have that kind of complete mental lapse in a game deciding situation.

No matter how talented a player is, they have to be elite mentally in order to really be a superstar or franchise player capable of leading a team on a championship contending run

 

[iowamcnabb]

I’d give up Keegan for Cam Johnson.

whatever you gain in offense you would give up on defense.

 

[Caccia]

The Suns' center, Jusuf Nurkić, looks to be available right now. He has been benched and says he did not talk to Coach Budenholzer for two months. He could be traded one-for-one with Huerter, although I imagine Sacramento might have to throw in a second-round pick to sweeten the deal. We need more size.

https://sports.yahoo.com/benched-su...hs-we-dont-have-a-relationship-203140961.html

 

[twslam07]

Not about the team, about Fox as a player. The glaring example was falling asleep at home against Detroit and allowing a 4 point play to lose, when the team was desperately in need of a win. For me, franchise player's don't have that kind of complete mental lapse in a game deciding situation.

No matter how talented a player is, they have to be elite mentally in order to really be a superstar or franchise player capable of leading a team on a championship contending run

I’m not going to judge a player by one basketball play…even if it was extremely dumb. We have plenty of tape that shows Fox’s defensive ability when he decides to turn it up during crunch time.

With a guard rotation of Fox, Ellis, and Carter, we don’t need Fox to be a great defender for the entirety of his 34-38 minutes. Have Fox use that energy attacking the paint on offense and then unleash our defensive roleplaying studs (Ellis & Carter) on the opposing teams star players.

 

[kingsboi]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1883564007665340752

I will pity whatever team that may try to trade for him

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I’m not going to judge a player by one basketball play…even if it was extremely dumb. We have plenty of tape that shows Fox’s defensive ability when he decides to turn it up during crunch time.

With a guard rotation of Fox, Ellis, and Carter, we don’t need Fox to be a great defender for the entirety of his 34-38 minutes. Have Fox use that energy attacking the paint on offense and then unleash our defensive roleplaying studs (Ellis & Carter) on the opposing teams star players.

Was one glaring example,....it's a lot more than one play. It's what lead up to that point in his head, that allowed that to happen.

Like losing track of a critical point in a season, when the team is struggling, and extra focus and grit is needed, but instead going on a rival player's Podcast to talk about what he wants from the front office. The Rich Paul special was telling and an insight to where his focus was/is

 

[twslam07]

That's a toss up and totally dependent on trade value at the time, but if it proves out that the defense is just going to be this bad with Fox and Monk together then one has to go, and at this point if it's picking between the two yes, I'm moving Fox. Success has to be the guide right now and there are much better advantages moving on with Monk at his contract level while potentially building value and balance in pieces like Carter and Keon if you aren't heading towards contention with a Fox and Domas headed team as is. The rest of the year will obviously determine what the success was.

Mostly what I mean by Suns is kowtowing to the demands of a star who appears to be questioning your franchises direction and yes, putting the team leftover in a worst case in basketball hell for years to come. If the moves they've made haven't done the job up to this point it's time to move the opposite way. Both sides wash their hands of it and get what they can while the getting's good. Yes, the Kings need a wing that can be a long term piece. To me? That's totally independent of the Fox situation. They need that with or without Fox and moving Fox might actually be the best way to get it whether that wing is acquired right then or in the future.

When looking towards unit construction we can see what potentially might be going on right now. Things that involve trading more flexible pieces contractually, like Monk, while pushing players like DeRozan into a different position or role while totally changing the basis of your team when we have potentially some clear data points already seems like a real guess. This is where it would actually be really great if Fox did sit out just so we can see if those Monk/Keon numbers were even in the realm of truth. Right now Fox or Monk next to Keon/Carter looks to be the answer on defense. Is it? Who knows but some of the numbers are matching up with common sense.

I think we disagree on this then.

If we don’t make the playoffs this year but Fox still wants to sign an extension in the offseason, I wouldn’t trade him like you’re suggesting. I’d extend him, keep him, and look to move Monk.

Fox is the superior, more impactful talent compared to Monk. Let’s build a more complementary roster around him (putting Ellis and Carter next to him at SG for all of his minutes would be a great start), and let’s not discount that Fox has been injured the entire season. I mentioned it earlier, but he shot 37% from three on high volume just last year. I wouldn’t be surprised if that finger injury (that needs surgery to fix) is impacting his 3 ball this year (especially since his FT% has considerably improved this year as well). It’d be extra unfortunate to move him only to see Fox return to being that level of a shooter the very next season.

 

[serbiangoat]

Drew Eubanks is a solid athlete rim protector and agitator I reckon he would be a decent backup , Utah does not need him.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

Drew Eubanks is a solid athlete rim protector and agitator I reckon he would be a decent backup , Utah does not need him.

If we’re giving up Lyle’s to not be a tax team this is a great idea so we’d have both Collins and Eubanks

 

[Rain man]

Yeah, bigger on paper. Like I said show me the minutes because at the end of the day defensive players are the answer from the numbers we're seeing. Then the question is how much value you sink in the "fix" if size is the issue, because that might be a backup playing 10 mpg at most. Since Christie took over DeMar is in both of the most used lineups with Keon and Carter and the defense is elite in both of them. Obviously it's a small sample size and yes, that is a fairly small unit with 4 guards needing time. The fix? You slide Keon and Carter next to either Fox or Monk. That right now is the only thing that looks like an actual fix with actual real data to give you an idea. Then what you do in the future at SF is what it is because obviously DeMar is going to have to replaced at some point.

I think if you get Collins for Huerter, and are able to keep Lyles, the minutes look something like this in a 9 man rotation:

Domas (34) Collins (14)
Keegan (18) Collins (12) Lyles (18)
Demar (32) Keegan (16)
Monk (28) Keon (20)
Fox (32) Keon (6) Carter (10)

Domas, Keegan- 34
Fox, Demar- 32
Monk - 28
Keon, Collins- 26
Lyles - 18
Carter - 10

First, you have an actual, legit backup option for Domas, that allows you to get meaningful rest for Domas without completely conceding those minutes.

Second, 30 of your minutes at the 4 are now being manned by actual big body 4/5 types, who can both shoot from the outside, and the other 18 are played by Keegan. I know Collins is not a defensive powerhouse, but the size and rebounding improvements of playing actual size at the 4 will help with rebounding and interior defense.

Third, the three position gets bigger because the 16 or so backup minutes are now being played by Keegan swinging down, instead of Huerter playing up. Again, much more size at the wing.

Fourth, you are getting 36 minutes with at least one of Keon or Carter playing alongside Monk or Fox. That is still time for Fox and Monk to do their thing together, while also getting the defense of Keon and Carter into the lineup.

Lastly, I would guess that in high leverage games, the Carter minutes probably disappear, and we go 8 man rotation, with Fox, Monk, Keon, and Demar absorbing those minutes.

 

[SacTownKid]

I think we disagree on this then.

If we don’t make the playoffs this year but Fox still wants to sign an extension in the offseason, I wouldn’t trade him like you’re suggesting. I’d extend him, keep him, and look to move Monk.

Fox is the superior, more impactful talent compared to Monk. Let’s build a more complementary roster around him (putting Ellis and Carter next to him at SG for all of his minutes would be a great start), and let’s not discount that Fox has been injured the entire season. I mentioned it earlier, but he shot 37% from three on high volume just last year. I wouldn’t be surprised if that finger injury (that needs surgery to fix) is impacting his 3 ball this year (especially since his FT% has considerably improved this year as well). It’d be extra unfortunate to move him only to see Fox return to being that level of a shooter the very next season.

See, and I think that's been done for a few years now and here they are, at the end of the clock where the end result matters and now you really have to pay up. I think missing the play in at this point would be a big disappointment and you would have to assess the contributing factors as to why you missed it. Nobody is doubting that Fox is a more impactful player. He is, although in a brief stint Monk with those two is actually better by the numbers. The question is whether or not Monte can build around that from here on and not have to dismantle valuable pieces, some far more valuable in relation to contract, to do it. I guess it would depend on what Monk could fetch but I'd bet Fox could fetch a lot more. So more assets, better contracts, and not moving almost every other major piece around in your rotation to make it work seems like the easiest and more common sense approach should this end up on the down side.

 

[SacTownKid]

I think if you get Collins for Huerter, and are able to keep Lyles, the minutes look something like this in a 9 man rotation:

Domas (34) Collins (14)
Keegan (18) Collins (12) Lyles (18)
Demar (32) Keegan (16)
Monk (28) Keon (20)
Fox (32) Keon (6) Carter (10)

Domas, Keegan- 34
Fox, Demar- 32
Monk - 28
Keon, Collins- 26
Lyles - 18
Carter - 10

First, you have an actual, legit backup option for Domas, that allows you to get meaningful rest for Domas without completely conceding those minutes.

Second, 30 of your minutes at the 4 are now being manned by actual big body 4/5 types, who can both shoot from the outside, and the other 18 are played by Keegan. I know Collins is not a defensive powerhouse, but the size and rebounding improvements of playing actual size at the 4 will help with rebounding and interior defense.

Third, the three position gets bigger because the 16 or so backup minutes are now being played by Keegan swinging down, instead of Huerter playing up. Again, much more size at the wing.

Fourth, you are getting 36 minutes with at least one of Keon or Carter playing alongside Monk or Fox. That is still time for Fox and Monk to do their thing together, while also getting the defense of Keon and Carter into the lineup.

Lastly, I would guess that in high leverage games, the Carter minutes probably disappear, and we go 8 man rotation, with Fox, Monk, Keon, and Demar absorbing those minutes.

Can Huerter for Collins work straight across? The final rotation involves basically running PF's at backup C then and putting Monk back to his 6th man role in terms of minutes. The reality is though that probably isn't going to be an every game thing and Lyles and Len would really be swapping games around at times like they kind of do now. Brown did that all the time and Christie is as well. Not the biggest deal in the world, but I could see why they might not want to go into the tax if that were the case. That rotation can work although some of those minutes are pushing certain guys like DeMar and Fox down a little low most likely. Christie clearly wouldn't be doing that even if he should. 35-36 minutes per game when the playoffs hit for those two, a few more for Monk, and those minutes are likely coming from Lyles unless Christie went size over defense in Keon/Carter which again doesn't really help them much where they need it. That said I'm totally down with Monte going after Collins if he's cheap enough.

I just checked some trade checkers yeah, Huerter without Lyles might get complicated. Then the Jazz might have to waive some guys to make it work.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

Can Huerter for Collins work straight across? The final rotation involves basically running PF's at backup C then and putting Monk back to his 6th man role in terms of minutes. The reality is though that probably isn't going to be an every game thing and Lyles and Len would really be swapping games around at times like they kind of do now. Brown did that all the time and Christie is as well. Not the biggest deal in the world, but I could see why they might not want to go into the tax if that were the case. That rotation can work although some of those minutes are pushing certain guys like DeMar and Fox down a little low most likely. Christie clearly wouldn't be doing that even if he should. 35-36 minutes per game when the playoffs hit for those two, a few more for Monk, and those minutes are likely coming from Lyles unless Christie went size over defense in Keon/Carter which again doesn't really help them much where they need it. That said I'm totally down with Monte going after Collins if he's cheap enough.

I just checked some trade checkers yeah, Huerter without Lyles might get complicated. Then the Jazz might have to waive some guys to make it work.

Huerter, Colby Jones, Len, and McLaughlin works but Utah has to cut three players which I think we’d have to compensate them for. We also would have only 11 players so we’d probably have to guarantee Issac Jones contract

If not we could do Huerter, Lyle’s, and Jones for Collins and Mykhailiuk

 

[twslam07]

See, and I think that's been done for a few years now and here they are, at the end of the clock where the end result matters and now you really have to pay up. I think missing the play in at this point would be a big disappointment and you would have to assess the contributing factors as to why you missed it. Nobody is doubting that Fox is a more impactful player. He is, although in a brief stint Monk with those two is actually better by the numbers. The question is whether or not Monte can build around that from here on and not have to dismantle valuable pieces, some far more valuable in relation to contract, to do it. I guess it would depend on what Monk could fetch but I'd bet Fox could fetch a lot more. So more assets, better contracts, and not moving almost every other major piece around in your rotation to make it work seems like the easiest and more common sense approach should this end up on the down side.

But we’re not at “the end of the clock” in terms of seeing if we can be a formidable team with Fox at the helm. There are easily identifiable areas that need/can be improved that don’t involve saying goodbye to Fox. Why would we not try those first (if Fox wants to say and is willing to sign an extension)?

We currently have a SG (Ellis) on this roster who is an elite defensive talent who also is an elite C&S shooter in this league. Figure out a way to rebalance the roster that allows this player to start and close games out next to Fox.

DeRozan in the starting lineup with Fox is not an ideal fit, but if you can reroute Monk for a better fitting forward piece (Cam Johnson), you can move DeRozan to the bench and start a team that fits extremely well around Fox and complements his game (Fox, Ellis, Johnson, Murray, and Sabonis).

Eventually, DeRozan will fade, retire, regress, etc. and you’ll be left without another go-to scorer. I think this is where you’ll need to rely on Carter, Johnson, Murray, and/or one of your future 1sts (since we’d still have all of ours except for the one due to ATL) to develop their game and give us that replacement long term.

And coming back to Monk to close this out, there’s a difference between being #1 on the opposing teams scouting report and potentially #4. If we move Fox, how effective do we really think Monk would be if he has guys like Alex Caruso, Amen Thompson, Marcus Smart, Kris Dunn, Derrick Jones, Jaden McDaniels, Nickeil Alexander-Walker, Herb Jones, Matisse Thybulle, etc. defending him from the onset? Fox has the ability to get by his man or create separation without help. Monk can do that a bit but he mainly gets free via a PnR which isn’t a bad thing, but I think it shows that these two are on different tiers offensively and I’d prefer to roll with guy who’s on the higher tier to help compete come playoff time when an iso game becomes that much more important.

 

[twslam07]

I’d give up Keegan for Cam Johnson.

Yikes. That would be an awful trade for us.

 

[Noble]

I know we need more, but Richaun Holmes would be fun to get back on this squad. I miss that push shot lol.

 

[Rain man]

Huerter, Colby Jones, Len, and McLaughlin works but Utah has to cut three players which I think we’d have to compensate them for. We also would have only 11 players so we’d probably have to guarantee Issac Jones contract

If not we could do Huerter, Lyle’s, and Jones for Collins and Mykhailiuk

Yeah, if we want to keep Lyles, we need to include a few lesser guys. It would need to be Huerter, and then two of Colby, Len, Doug, or McLaughlin. That leaves you $30k over the apron, but apparently we can maneuver that amount by either cutting Crowder or including a third guy from above. As noted, we would then have only 11 players - the core 9 of Domas, Keegan, Demar, Monk, Fox, Keon, Collins, Lyles, and Carter, and then two of Colby, Len, Doug, McLaughlin, and Crowder.

NBA says we must have 14 players on non-two way deals, though we can have 13 players twice per season, for a period of 14 days each time. So if we did this, we would probably convert Isaac Jones to a standard deal to get to 12, and then sign a free agent to a 10 day contract as we have done the last few seasons to get to 13. See what that roster looks like for a few weeks, and then add a 14th guy on a 10 day/ROS contract, or even convert Mason Jones to a regular contract.

Your long term, core 10 would be:

Domas/Collins
Keegan/Lyles/Jones
Demar
Monk/Keon
Fox/Carter

With a backend bench of some combo of Doug, Colby, Len, McLaughlin, Crowder, and 2-10 day contract type guys. Crawford and Mason Jones on two way deals. Then you'd go into the offseason with your MLE and bi-annual exception (I think), and all of your draft picks unencumbered (hopefully), with the goal of identifying a Demar successor and then trying to rebuild the deep bench with younger type prospects and vet minimums.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Twitter seems to think a Kings trade is going down…. Collins is the name.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

Twitter seems to think a Kings trade is going down…. Collins is the name.

Saw kings muse hinting but he’s done that before did anyone else post something

 

[iowamcnabb]

Saw kings muse hinting but he’s done that before did anyone else post something

it’s all over and they are talking about it on espn 1320 too. They said it’s “above smoke” level

 

[Joshyjosh31]

it’s all over and they are talking about it on espn 1320 too. They said it’s “above smoke” level

just started listening on delay did they say any names? Hopefully we leave NY with Cam and Sharpe

 

[iowamcnabb]

just started listening on delay did they say any names? Hopefully we leave NY with Cam and Sharpe

They said they don’t know names

 

[Capt. Factorial]

it’s all over and they are talking about it on espn 1320 too. They said it’s “above smoke” level

I can't find anything outside of a troll post from Kings Muse?

 

[iowamcnabb]

I can't find anything outside of a troll post from Kings Muse?

im sure it’s a bit of telephone. I had several posts come across the feed. C-Dave and 1320 have been talking about something brewing. Who knows, not the first time we’ve been here

 

[Joshyjosh31]

Dlo said the team is moving like they for sure have a deal in place and that it’s not normal for this to happen without a deal. Also said his trusted source said a deal should happen soon

 

[twslam07]

If Lyles is being included in the trade, maybe they’ll announce it after the game so they can use him one last time against BKN.

And John Collins will be in Milwaukee tonight so he can fly over and meet up with the team tonight in Philadelphia (not too far of a flight) which gives us the chance of playing him against the 76ers on Wednesday.

 

[Tetsujin]

Not gonna believe it until SacTownWoj confirms it

 

[SacTownKid]

But we’re not at “the end of the clock” in terms of seeing if we can be a formidable team with Fox at the helm. There are easily identifiable areas that need/can be improved that don’t involve saying goodbye to Fox. Why would we not try those first (if Fox wants to say and is willing to sign an extension)?

We currently have a SG (Ellis) on this roster who is an elite defensive talent who also is an elite C&S shooter in this league. Figure out a way to rebalance the roster that allows this player to start and close games out next to Fox.

DeRozan in the starting lineup with Fox is not an ideal fit, but if you can reroute Monk for a better fitting forward piece (Cam Johnson), you can move DeRozan to the bench and start a team that fits extremely well around Fox and complements his game (Fox, Ellis, Johnson, Murray, and Sabonis).

Eventually, DeRozan will fade, retire, regress, etc. and you’ll be left without another go-to scorer. I think this is where you’ll need to rely on Carter, Johnson, Murray, and/or one of your future 1sts (since we’d still have all of ours except for the one due to ATL) to develop their game and give us that replacement long term.

And coming back to Monk to close this out, there’s a difference between being #1 on the opposing teams scouting report and potentially #4. If we move Fox, how effective do we really think Monk would be if he has guys like Alex Caruso, Amen Thompson, Marcus Smart, Kris Dunn, Derrick Jones, Jaden McDaniels, Nickeil Alexander-Walker, Herb Jones, Matisse Thybulle, etc. defending him from the onset? Fox has the ability to get by his man or create separation without help. Monk can do that a bit but he mainly gets free via a PnR which isn’t a bad thing, but I think it shows that these two are on different tiers offensively and I’d prefer to roll with guy who’s on the higher tier to help compete come playoff time when an iso game becomes that much more important.

Not at this deadline they aren't but this summer they are if Fox isn't guaranteed to be here long term and/or the success doesn't look to be worth the investment overall. Look at history, it doesn't bode well if Fox is actually one foot out the door and you wait until the last year of his deal. If he's willing to sign an extension that might change things, but are there other rules that might hurt if they do? Like Lauri who can't be traded for a year, or poison pill stuff? If there are no obstacles than it would be easier but it's still a 50/50 proposition if the team has to basically change core pieces yet again for 1 player.

That's the issue with Monk, we don't know, and nobody should assume he'll be anywhere near Fox's level in that sense. What we do know right now is that the 5 man lineups show as long as a defender is at the 2 there aren't any drawbacks in the ratings. Does that equal greater success? Maybe not, but Monk being on his current deal is still infinitely a better asset most likely. If Fox is earning 50 million a year or whatever those deals alone are hard to trade salary wise. Look at some of the hurdles teams trying to trade for big contracts right now are going through with the apron stuff.

 

[iowamcnabb]

DLo also said that he thinks it’s most likely Cam and that Cam is good with a trade to Sac. He also said they may be working on something else but he said the intel was too open to interpretation so wouldn’t go any further into that