Post game thoughts 12/7

[Cal-Kings]

I hope so because he is reminding me of another one dimentional player we use to have. (#16) I like the kid, but the words out against him now.

I don't see any resemblance to Peja at all.

1) Kevin can create his own shot from anywhere on the floor. Peja had a left-side step-back shot to create space. That's about it.

2) Kevin is very quick. Peja is very slow. Thus Kevin can often beat his man off the dribble. Peja just can't.

3) Kevin plays better defense because of his quickness. He can and has gotten in front of guards and drawn offensive fouls. Peja can't do that against the small forwards he guards.

4) Kevin can dunk, he's quick around the basket, he runs down the court faster than anyone, he can take Oops. Peja is grounded, slow, never dunks the ball.

5) Kevin is a better rebounder and a better passer.

6) It's easy to get in Peja's head and stay there. Kevin is showing he can fight through this, but yes, he's still learning how to do that. Peja with all his experience still has trouble with mental toughness.

The only thing they have in common is, they can shoot 3s and make free throws.

The one thing that stands out about Kevin is his versatility so I have no idea where a one-dimensional picture comes in regards to him.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't see any resemblance to Peja at all.

1) Kevin can create his own shot from anywhere on the floor. Peja had a left-side step-back shot to create space. That's about it.

2) Kevin is very quick. Peja is very slow. Thus Kevin can often beat his man off the dribble. Peja just can't.

3) Kevin plays better defense because of his quickness. He can and has gotten in front of guards and drawn offensive fouls. Peja can't do that against the small forwards he guards.

4) Kevin can dunk, he's quick around the basket, he runs down the court faster than anyone, he can take Oops. Peja is grounded, slow, never dunks the ball.

5) Kevin is a better rebounder and a better passer.

6) It's easy to get in Peja's head and stay there. Kevin is showing he can fight through this, but yes, he's still learning how to do that. Peja with all his experience still has trouble with mental toughness.

The only thing they have in common is, they can shoot 3s and make free throws.

The one thing that stands out about Kevin is his versatility so I have no idea where a one-dimensional picture comes in regards to him.

I have often compared the two, and continue to see a lot of similarities, basically in everything BUT athelticism. Their offensive role (pure scorer, others create for them), image, development, relative positioning on the team. I'm sure the most recent comparison is just the idea that yes, Kevin has shown he can be lethal if left open, but it seems, like Peja, that teams are now solving him just by getting in his grill. The difference hopefully being that Kevin at least LOOKS like he should be able to do something about that. He just doesn't/hasn't.

 

[reyes13]

The simularity is that we all are/were riding on both of them to score...I just don't want to have to rely on Kmart scoring 30 for us to get a W. They both score most of the time from being set up from others; with all this one on one neither of them will thrive.

 

[Cal-Kings]

I have often compared the two, and continue to see a lot of similarities, basically in everything BUT athelticism. Their offensive role (pure scorer, others create for them), image, development, relative positioning on the team. I'm sure the most recent comparison is just the idea that yes, Kevin has shown he can be lethal if left open, but it seems, like Peja, that teams are now solving him just by getting in his grill. The difference hopefully being that Kevin at least LOOKS like he should be able to do something about that. He just doesn't/hasn't.

I don't see Martin as a pure scorer other than he should be because he's a good one. But a pure scorer means he doesn't pass, rebound, or play defense. I think Martin does all those well.

Also, others do create for him, but he creates more for himself. Peja required a screen, Martin almost never uses them except to drive around.

Image? I don't know what you mean by image. They are both "good guys?" Or do you mean something that makes a difference on the court?

Development? Why, because Kevin didn't play much his first year and neither did Peja?

Positioning on the team? What do you mean by positioning? Go-to guy? Second do-to guy? Third go-to guy?

Your last comment that Martin at least LOOKS like he should be able to solve the opponent defenders problem I agree with.

 

[nbrans]

Peja can't take it to the hole. Kevin can. I think all the similarities end there.

Look, they're scorers, if you squint your eyes right they all look the same. Peja looks like Ray Allen looks like Kevin looks like Rip looks like etc. etc. etc. I don't see what is gained from making the comparison. Everyone's game is different.

 

[Cal-Kings]

Peja can't take it to the hole. Kevin can. I think all the similarities end there.

Look, they're scorers, if you squint your eyes right they all look the same. Peja looks like Ray Allen looks like Kevin looks like Rip looks like etc. etc. etc. I don't see what is gained from making the comparison. Everyone's game is different.

I agree. I don't think we've had a player like K-Mart on this team in the last several years.

If anything, he's like a Doug Christie that can shoot.

Otherwise, he's entirely different from anyone we've had.

 

[reyes13]

Like Peja...we must make sure to get KMart involved in the offense to win. That's the same. We can't win with him jacking up threes with a defender in his face. We can though when we set him up to score by getting him more open. He still needs to work on creating his own shot-which is still a work in progress. In the mean time, we still got to "baby" him a little, just as we did with peja.

 

[thatguy]

Okay, how do players no longer with the team creep into these threads? And why? This is still 2006, right? "Comparing" so-and-so to this'n'that is useless and, really, a bit silly.

 

[reyes13]

I agree. I don't think we've had a player like K-Mart on this team in the last several years.

If anything, he's like a Doug Christie that can shoot.

Otherwise, he's entirely different from anyone we've had.

DC wasn't our primary scorer.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't see Martin as a pure scorer other than he should be because he's a good one. But a pure scorer means he doesn't pass, rebound, or play defense. I think Martin does all those well.

Also, others do create for him, but he creates more for himself. Peja required a screen, Martin almost never uses them except to drive around.

Image? I don't know what you mean by image. They are both "good guys?" Or do you mean something that makes a difference on the court?

Development? Why, because Kevin didn't play much his first year and neither did Peja?

Positioning on the team? What do you mean by positioning? Go-to guy? Second do-to guy? Third go-to guy?

Your last comment that Martin at least LOOKS like he should be able to solve the opponent defenders problem I agree with.

Kevin's passing is actually considerably Pejaesque, and for similar reasons. He has the ball to shoot it, not create. Has some skills, but its not his game (possibly yet, he's still younger). His rebounding is pretty good for a guard. Not exceptional, but enough, especially considering the build. His defense...in some ways the opposite of Peja. Peja was solid man to man but a crappy team defender. Kevin is highly erratic man to man but at least early in the year was all over the passing lanes. End result is similar though. Moments, but not great.

And here:

Kevin 06-07:
36.4min 21.4ppg (.504 .443 .905) 4.3reb 1.8ast 1.4stl 0.1blk 2.1TO (4 3pt atempts/gm)
Peja 01-02:
37.3min 21.2ppg (.484 .416 .876) 5.3reb 2.5ast 1.1stl 0.2blk 2.0TO (4.5 3pt attempts/gm)

Stylistically they are different, but results/roles? Quite similar. The designated scorer/shooter. Also as I have mentioned in the past positoned similarly vis a vis the franchise player as the young unknown/underdog clean cut "nice guy" alternative.

 

[Cal-Kings]

Okay, how do players no longer with the team creep into these threads? And why? This is still 2006, right?

I think we're comfortable with the familiar is all.

It's hard not to compare current players with ones we all knew so well.

But I think we do a disservice to K-Mart because he's not like anyone we've had in a long time. Which is why I'm excited to see how he develops.

 

[Cal-Kings]

DC wasn't our primary scorer.

Like I said, a DC who can shoot.

Similar, yet entirely different.

 

[reyes13]

Like I said, a DC who can shoot.

Similar, yet entirely different.

Whenever DC scored, it was only a added bonus. We are relying on KMart to score for us to win ballgames...just like we did with Peja. Damn, those stats are a lot closer than I thought.

 

[Cal-Kings]

Kevin's passing is actually considerably Pejaesque, adn for similar reasons. he has the ball to shoot it, nto create.

Kevin is more often a ball handler, a guard/point guard at times. I can't recall ever seeing Peja bring the ball up the court and initiate the offense, maybe a handful of times in all the years he played here. Kevin does many times. So again, I'm not seeing any similarities other than they both generally play basketball.

Has some skills, but not his game.

I disagree. I think his skills at creating shots are his game and need to become his game more and more.

His reboudning is pretyt good for a guard. Not exceptional, but enough, especially considering the build. His defense...in some ways the opposite of Peja. peja was solid man to man but a crappy team defender. Kevin is highly erratic man to man but at least early in the year was all over the passing lanes. End result is similar though. Moments, but not great.

Agree however, again, actual similarties on how they play defense differ. You're only comparing the "end result" which can be used to compare Brad Miller to Mike Bibby at some point.

And here:
Kevin 06-07:
36.4min 21.4ppg (.504 .443 .905) 4.3reb 1.8ast 1.4stl 0.1blk 2.1TO
Peja 01-02:
37.3min 21.2ppg (.484 .416 .876) 5.3reb 2.5ast 1.1stl 0.2blk 2.0TO

I'm not sure what the stats are meant to show. They could be from any SF or SG in the league that has some talent.

Stylistically they are different,

Yes, which is why I don't see them similar at all.

but results/roles? Quite similar. The designated scorer/shooter.

I think Kevin's role is still evolving. The offense we run now (whatever the heck it is) seems to have everyone in evolving roles.

Also as I have mentioned in the past positoned similarly vis a vis the franchise player as the "nice guy" alternative.

OK, but I don't see what "nice guy" has to do with how they play on the court.

 

[Cal-Kings]

Whenever DC scored, it was only a added bonus. We are relying on KMart to score for us to win ballgames...just like we did with Peja. Damn, those stats are a lot closer than I thought.

Are we? They why don't we run any plays for K-Mart? Why are Brad and Bibby and Artest handling the ball most of the time?

I think he should become our primary scorer, but he's not yet. And I'm not sure he's ready yet to be that. Like we were saying, he's still learning how to adapt to different defenses thrown at him.

 

[thatguy]

OK, but I don't see what "nice guy" has to do with how they play on the court.

It doesn't -- think marketing.

 

[Cal-Kings]

It doesn't -- think marketing.

Sure, marketing. But I thought we were talking about their playing style and in talking about that, we were evaluating their impact on the team and if Kevin will "turn into" Peja at some point.

I'm not seeing that. But I will grant you they are both very nice guys and valuable marketing assets.

 

[nbrans]

This is another thing that is kind of driving me crazy. Do people really think after what has happened in his career, with the things he has done, that Ron is marketable? That just because he's the best player he should be the face of the Kings organization?

 

[thatguy]

Sure, marketing. But I thought we were talking about their playing style and in talking about that, we were evaluating their impact on the team and if Kevin will "turn into" Peja at some point.

I was just trying to clarify. I'm not in the conversation about morphing.

This is another thing that is kind of driving me crazy. Do people really think after what has happened in his career, with the things he has done, that Ron is marketable? That just because he's the best player he should be the face of the Kings organization?

Sure he's marketable, maybe not to the choicest markets. And you have to remember that, as a whole, the Kings fans are generally the easiest people to market to; all you have to do is point and say "He plays basketball for the Kings," and whoever that person may be (Lucifer, Ben Affleck) is already a fan favorite.

 

[Cal-Kings]

This is another thing that is kind of driving me crazy. Do people really think after what has happened in his career, with the things he has done, that Ron is marketable? That just because he's the best player he should be the face of the Kings organization?

What kinds of things are you talking about? Are you talking nationally or just in Sac?

I'm not a season ticket holder any longer (too expensive) so I don't see the team mailings out. Are they focusing on Artest?

 

[Cal-Kings]

I was just trying to clarify. I'm not in the conversation about morphing.

Yeah, and I'm not sure anyone was really talking about Kevin morphing into Peja. It's just what I was picking up as an undertone. Maybe they don't mean that at all when comparing the two.

 

[nbrans]

What kinds of things are you talking about? Are you talking nationally or just in Sac?

I'm not a season ticket holder any longer (too expensive) so I don't see the team mailings out. Are they focusing on Artest?

Well, I've just seen some suggestions on the board that the organization is favoring Kevin by putting him so front and center and kind of making him the face of the franchise. And my feeling to that sentiment is, DUH.

 

[Cal-Kings]

Well, I've just seen some suggestions on the board that the organization is favoring Kevin by putting him so front and center and kind of making him the face of the franchise. And my feeling is, DUH.

You mean, they were suggesting that putting Kevin out front was a bad thing?

 

[nbrans]

You mean, they were suggesting that putting Kevin out front was a bad thing?

Yeah, Bricklayer, among others have suggested that the way the organization is marketing Kevin might get to Ron. I just think it's inevitable that Kevin is going to be marketed more heavily by the Kings organization.

I mean, if the choice is between a young, nice, humble rising star and a guy who started the worst brawl in the history of the NBA, 30 organizations out of 30 are going to make the same choice.

 

[Cal-Kings]

I know I get a little squeemish when it's "All K-Mart All the Time" and how he's an all-star and how he's the next Larry Bird. It's a lot of expectation to put on the kid. And it smacks of a team that just has nothing else positive to say about itself which is scary.

 

[Cal-Kings]

Yeah, Bricklayer, among others have suggested that the way the organization is marketing Kevin might get to Ron. I just think it's inevitable that Kevin is going to be marketed more heavily by the Kings organization.

I mean, if the choice is between a young, nice, humble rising star and a guy who started the worst brawl in the history of the NBA, 30 organizations out of 30 are going to make the same choice.

Oh. I see. I don't know how Ron feels though. I think Ron is all about what happens on the court, however, if I had to guess.

 

[gunks]

I know I get a little squeemish when it's "All K-Mart All the Time" and how he's an all-star and how he's the next Larry Bird. It's a lot of expectation to put on the kid. And it smacks of a team that just has nothing else positive to say about itself which is scary.

Pretty much true though.

 

[Cal-Kings]

Pretty much true though.

Sigh, yeah. Which is scary.

 

[kennadog]

Oh. I see. I don't know how Ron feels though. I think Ron is all about what happens on the court, however, if I had to guess.

I dunno. He didn't appear to like playing second fiddle to O'Neal, on or off the court. Altho he was a big fan favorite in Indiana.

 

[Lamar_Odom]

Yeah, Bricklayer, among others have suggested that the way the organization is marketing Kevin might get to Ron. I just think it's inevitable that Kevin is going to be marketed more heavily by the Kings organization.

I mean, if the choice is between a young, nice, humble rising star and a guy who started the worst brawl in the history of the NBA, 30 organizations out of 30 are going to make the same choice.

I still don't get why the Kings have to walk on egg shells for Artest. He is not a franchise player that he wants himself to be, and believe it or not, is a huge part of what is going on with the Kings. I think the Kings are better off trading him if they can get a good return for him. He will not take the Kings anywhere.