Ongoing draft/lottery discussion [OPEN SPOILERS]
- Thread starter hrdboild
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Payton is a solid prospect, but another PG riding up Cuz's back in the post? I question ANYONE that thinks that somehow is ever going to work regardless of talent level. There is an interesting correlation in the NBA, teams with talent that are constructed to make sense often times win more than they lose. One day the Kings might figure that out. We just have to hope by the time they finally do the only piece worth building around isn't already gone.
I'm very high on Burks. I think he fits what we need on this team. He's a great slasher and passer. He's also become a good 3pt shooter in the NBA.
Like Ben, he struggles a bit on defensive rotations and etc, but he has the size and strength to be a great defender.
He's everything Karl is looking for. We need more talent on the roster and I think the 6th+Ben+Landry for 12th+Burks would be a good value for us.
This is assuming WCS gets drafted at 4 as OP suggested.
Burks is better than Ben and their skillsets are entirely different.
Alec Burks SG from Utah
Like Ben, he struggles a bit on defensive rotations and etc, but he has the size and strength to be a great defender.
He's everything Karl is looking for. We need more talent on the roster and I think the 6th+Ben+Landry for 12th+Burks would be a good value for us.
This is assuming WCS gets drafted at 4 as OP suggested.
Burks is better than Ben and their skillsets are entirely different.
Alec Burks SG from Utah
Alec Burks is already 24 with 2 more years of experience, and it is not clear, if he's better than Ben right now, at all, Burks just got more opportunities. Ben was put in a similar role at the end of the season, got same 3+ assists per 36 with 1.5 ast/TO ratio and similarly generated a few losses.
He's a worse shooter than Ben (same %, but Ben shoots almost twice more attempts).
He's a worse shooter than Ben (same %, but Ben shoots almost twice more attempts).
I don't get the McLemore talk. He improved last season and he started showing us why we were like "The most talented rookie dropped to No, 7?! Awesome".
He's playing good defense and besides that horrible month when he shot the ball poorly - he bacame a better scorer. I like him as our starter and truly belive Karl is the guy to mentor him. (or Malone was in the first place)
A good draft pick in my opinion would be WCS, but how about Kaminsky? Strech 4 that could really help our poor spacing with his shooting. Not the most explosive guy in the world, but we need a PF and maybe he'll do good to our game. Either way, I think JT is going out of our team, let's hope they will trade for DC as well.
He's playing good defense and besides that horrible month when he shot the ball poorly - he bacame a better scorer. I like him as our starter and truly belive Karl is the guy to mentor him. (or Malone was in the first place)
A good draft pick in my opinion would be WCS, but how about Kaminsky? Strech 4 that could really help our poor spacing with his shooting. Not the most explosive guy in the world, but we need a PF and maybe he'll do good to our game. Either way, I think JT is going out of our team, let's hope they will trade for DC as well.
That's my feeling exactly. I like Kaminsky but he's not going to be ready to start so the options would be to start Thompson, start Landry or pick up a new starting PF through a trade or free agency. I don't think Landry fits what Karl wants to do at all and I think we saw that with his minutes reduced and a number of DNPs.
So barring a trade or a signing (and the Kings don't really have the cap room for a major impact free agent) JT would start at PF next season. Now if Kaminsky (and I have my doubts about him ever being more than a useful bench player in the NBA) or Cauley-Stein etc eventually take the job that just makes JT a very useful backup PF/C. Same thing with Collison. If the Kings can acquire a better PG then Collison has already shown himself to be a very good backup and is still on a very reasonable contract for that role just like Thompson.
So barring a trade or a signing (and the Kings don't really have the cap room for a major impact free agent) JT would start at PF next season. Now if Kaminsky (and I have my doubts about him ever being more than a useful bench player in the NBA) or Cauley-Stein etc eventually take the job that just makes JT a very useful backup PF/C. Same thing with Collison. If the Kings can acquire a better PG then Collison has already shown himself to be a very good backup and is still on a very reasonable contract for that role just like Thompson.
I agree. The problem this season really was not our starting 5 when they were all on the court. It was a dismal bench and inadequate replacements when they were out. So simply trading any of them for marginal or even decent upgrades does little to help. Now if we can bring in improvements at the 1,2 or 4 AND keep DC, BM and JT then by all means do so. Every coach we have had has seen the obvious value to moving JT to the bench for his versatility, but the problem over and over has been every guy they put in the starting line up made the team worse and JT was back in the starting 5.
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We need some one who can protect the rim when Cousins sits. Yes, the starting lineup stats were nice, but things fell apart on both sides of the court without Boogie. JT was a good man defender at the beginning of last year, but he hasn't shown an ability to protect the rim, so unfortunately he's not part of the solution on that front. That's why I support picking up someone like Koufos as a true back up to Cousins, unless we draft Cauley-Stein.
Kings just need to replace all the minutes of crappy defenders Williams, Stauskas, Mccallum and Evans with average defensively vets.
Koufos will be mightily expensive for a 15 mpg backup and he makes JT and his $6 million useless. But (and it's a big) if Karl is willing to play two of Boogie, JT and Kosta at the same time, sign me up!
Koufos will be mightily expensive for a 15 mpg backup and he makes JT and his $6 million useless. But (and it's a big) if Karl is willing to play two of Boogie, JT and Kosta at the same time, sign me up!
So who is PDA aligned with? I know he is FO, but did he really want Payton, or was it the other FO guys who wanted Payton and PDA was with Vivek for Nik? I know there was a bit of a dust up with Rahim that night that led to his departure...so i think we know who he wanted. I guess my point is that is PDA just the fans whipping boy, when it is Vivek who is really pulling all of this? That has kind of been my feeling all along. I don't know how good/bad PDA is as a GM, because i have felt it's Vivek who has been the one meddling all along and letting PDA take the brunt of the criticism...or maybe they really do share the same ideals, but that would go against Vlade being hired. Bottom line is that Vivek needs to stay the hell out of the personnel decisions.
There's a lot of truth there. Often times Petrie gets a bit of a pass because of presumed Maloof meddling but D'Alessandro doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt. It very well could have been Vivek overruling decisions and Pete's crime then becomes letting the owner override his better judgement as a GM. But when D'Alessandro came out publicly and said Malone's firing was 100% his call then I take him at his word. And THAT was the move that sunk this season completely and angered the only guy worth building around on the Kings.
One element of BBIQ is passing ability. With passing, you either have it or you don't. You either see the court and react quickly and pass the ball accurately or you don't. If you don't have that vision-reaction ability you just have to play much more conservatively so you don't make the stupid play. We have a lot of the latter kind of players. I think music is a good example, but I come to a different conclusion than you apparently. I'm a "mechanic" when it comes to playing the guitar. My nephew, on the other hand, is a prodigy. I will never come close to his stratosphere when it comes to playing. He "sees the floor" and I see "the man in front of me." (I hate him.
) Same holds for a guy with the IQ for basketball. Some guys are like Jason Thompson and it takes him nearly 4 years to know that his hands are not totally vertical (90 degrees) to the floor when he's guarding his man, more like 45 degrees. Some, on the other hand, are like Sauce and have an intuitive feel for the game.
I think Karl recognizes what can be taught and what can't be taught, and I believe that FO discussions with Karl will definitely touch on those players that are "beyond redemption" and those he believes have a future with this team. I also believe that BBIQ is going to be a major factor in their draft decision. I doubt they are going to draft someone who doesn't have the ability to deal with steep learning curve. Karl had enough of that kind of frustration last year; he doesn't want to add to it.
) Same holds for a guy with the IQ for basketball. Some guys are like Jason Thompson and it takes him nearly 4 years to know that his hands are not totally vertical (90 degrees) to the floor when he's guarding his man, more like 45 degrees. Some, on the other hand, are like Sauce and have an intuitive feel for the game. I think Karl recognizes what can be taught and what can't be taught, and I believe that FO discussions with Karl will definitely touch on those players that are "beyond redemption" and those he believes have a future with this team. I also believe that BBIQ is going to be a major factor in their draft decision. I doubt they are going to draft someone who doesn't have the ability to deal with steep learning curve. Karl had enough of that kind of frustration last year; he doesn't want to add to it.
There's such a fine line between confidence, and real ability. If your not confident, you've already failed, but if your over confident, your a bull in a china shop. So a player walks that fine line between knowing what he can and can't do, and thinking he can do everything. By the time you've played in the league for 5 or 6 years, and your still in the league, you've probably figured it out. But when your a rookie, you feel like your in a car at the Indy 500 going 100 miles an hour, while everyone else is going 190 miles and hour. Your just trying to get around the track and not get killed doing it. When you were 15 yr's old, you were watching Lebron on TV. He was your idol. Now it's three years later, and your on the court guarding him. That's the reality of what its like to be a rookie in the NBA.
I have no idea whether McLemore will live up to his supposed potential. However, I do think he'll improve, and somewhere along the line, the team, whichever team it is, and he, will figure out what his role in the NBA is. He may never turn into that player that can carry a team when needed, but I do think he'll be a valuable player in some capacity. I do think that too many times we blame a young player for not living up to our expectations, which may not be his. Too often, a rookie is looked at as a savior, when in reality, he needs saving. That's an exaggeration of course, but I think you get my meaning.
You started with passing ability as a sign of BBIQ, or lack thereof. Which ever is the case. I agree to the extent, that some players will never be great, or maybe even good passers. But they can be taught to not be bad passers. Part of being a productive player is knowing what you can and can't do. Of course if your playing on a team where passing ability is at a premium, then maybe your not a good fit on that team.
Which is why I don't totally believe it. I mean come on, how many college games does Vivek watch during the season. I doubt he would have known who Stauskas is unless someone else fed him the information. I have no doubt that the brain trust was divided on who to choose. Hardly unusual. Vivek may have been the decisive vote, or he may have been echoing one of his close advisers. (Mullins). But hey, the buck stops with him, so at least some blame is appropriate, if in deed you think drafting Stauskas was a bad decision. Personally, I don't fall into that camp. I may in a couple of years, but still too early for me. I think the jury is still out for both Stauskas and Payton.
I put a fair amount of stock in Voisons's report that PDA/Mullin flew to Vegas to convince Vivek to fire Malone. It makes sense with everything which has come out since. That PDA might join Mully in NY just adds to it.
Vivek doesn't have clean hands in all of this, his meddling was also an issue but when combining an inexperienced and new owner with the PDA/Mully dynamic, it's no wonder this season blew up in our faces. I'm hopeful however it appears Vivek learned a much needed lesson and will take a step back and that the dissenters are being ushered out.
Vivek doesn't have clean hands in all of this, his meddling was also an issue but when combining an inexperienced and new owner with the PDA/Mully dynamic, it's no wonder this season blew up in our faces. I'm hopeful however it appears Vivek learned a much needed lesson and will take a step back and that the dissenters are being ushered out.
I don't think any of the above is true, well beyond him improving. But improving to what? He was so bad his rookie year that he couldn't help but improve, but he remained one of the least productive SGs in the NBA.
Per 36 minutes (to take out the uptick in minutes):
2013-14: 11.9pts (.376 .320 .804) 3.9reb 1.3ast 0.7stl 0.3blk 1.6TO
2014:15: 13.4pts (.437 .358 .813) 3.2reb 1.9ast 1.0stl 0.3blk 1.9TO
to give you some idea, in his second year the much maligned Austin Rivers put up these per 36 numbers:
2013-14: 14.2pts (.405 .364 .636) 3.5reb 4.3ast 1.2stl 0.2blk 2.1TO
so yes, Ben improved, but it was hardly a rocketship taking off. Nor did he suddenly explode once Karl took over at the All Star break:
pre All Star break: 33.2min 11.7pts (.444 .362 .837) 3.0reb 1.5ast
post All Star break: 31.5min 12.9pts (.426 .350 .784) 2.8reb 2.1ast
I think the real x-factor is that George Karl, and Vlade from his remarks, really seem to value disruptiveness on defense and passing on offense as desirable goals for that position. Vlade has invoked Christie's name more than once. And those are precisely things that Ben is particularly poor at. Whatever it is, you just can't return with him being handed the starting job again jut because we drafted him. He's been so bad he has actively taking wins out of our pocket and muted Cousins' greatness. you don't have All NBA players and win 29 games unless you've got a bunch of guys losing their own positional battles every night, and Ben has been one of those since the moment he arrived in the league. If you want to sit on his potential, whatever that may be, fine. But the key word there is "sit". You need somebody else actually on the court ready to help our core vets win games.
Green would be a sweet get.
My (realistic but definitely not in the bag) best case scenarios for this summer are either WCS + Green or Winslow + Taj.
And yet, I find myself mentally preparing for the disappointment of Porzingis + Afflalo (which, ironically enough, would still have more potential than some of our other recent off-seasons).
My (realistic but definitely not in the bag) best case scenarios for this summer are either WCS + Green or Winslow + Taj.
And yet, I find myself mentally preparing for the disappointment of Porzingis + Afflalo (which, ironically enough, would still have more potential than some of our other recent off-seasons).
1. lol at Austin Rivers: he had atrocious effectiveness every season in the NBA, including .481TS% in his second year. Ben was at .552TS% this year and that's with 3 coaches. Of course, Rivers averaged 4+ assists per 36 with good ast/TO ratio - he was a designated PG. Ray McCallum averaged 5+ assists with 2.5 ast/TO ratio under Karl in similar role, but that doesn't make him a good player.
2. Ben is not an experienced in playing guard, so he's not very quick to adapt, and it took him a while to get understand, what Karl wanted from him, but he ended the season with a couple 7 assist games, got 1.5 steals per 36 minutes under Karl, and that number was 1.9 in April (Danny Green averaged 1.4, 1.5, 1.4, 1.6 steals per 36 in the last 4 seasons)
3. In the only stretch of his career, when both players and coach were trying to win, Ben didn't seem to hurt this team at all. He was among worst NBA players as a rookie, and became a below average starter at SG as a sophomore. There's not many options available, that will be better than Ben next season.
Kings would be extremely thin at PG.
2. Ben is not an experienced in playing guard, so he's not very quick to adapt, and it took him a while to get understand, what Karl wanted from him, but he ended the season with a couple 7 assist games, got 1.5 steals per 36 minutes under Karl, and that number was 1.9 in April (Danny Green averaged 1.4, 1.5, 1.4, 1.6 steals per 36 in the last 4 seasons)
3. In the only stretch of his career, when both players and coach were trying to win, Ben didn't seem to hurt this team at all. He was among worst NBA players as a rookie, and became a below average starter at SG as a sophomore. There's not many options available, that will be better than Ben next season.
Kings would be extremely thin at PG.
That's one of those risky plays that could pay off big time, or it could really scuttle you and suck. Matthews is several >> above strict roleplayers like Green etc., and at least >>> over a guy like Ben. He's not a star, but healthy he was a rock steady all around contributor. 3's, D, post scoring. If he were only healthy and you could trot out a Collison/Matthews/Gay/?/Cuz lineup next year you'd have trouble not doing well.
BUT, coming off the injury its such a risk, and the Kings almost can't afford to fail this time. We need this season desperately. And if Matthews wasn't back until January, and then wasn't quite the same guy...
BUT, coming off the injury its such a risk, and the Kings almost can't afford to fail this time. We need this season desperately. And if Matthews wasn't back until January, and then wasn't quite the same guy...
We have got to have some kind of impact from our sg and PF next season. I'd prefer WCS as the draft pick because you can fall back on vets. If you fail once again with a guard you only fall back on youth. Need to devote alot of time trading for or signing an impact sg. He don't have to be Kobe or Klay. Matthews would be great without injury. Danny green also a stable upgrade.