We were still a terrible team with Dalembert. So there's that..Cousins thinks he's better at playing PF(whats the difference at this point?), but an overlooked difference is that players weren't double and triple teaming Cuz his first few years in the NBA. We are drsfting WCS for his defense, but is his offense passable? I personally think so, but our floor spacing on the team would be terrible.
Ongoing draft/lottery discussion [OPEN SPOILERS]
- Thread starter hrdboild
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macadocious
Starter
I find it interesting that most of the Mocks have us taking Mudiay. CD has said we abolsultely will not take him, and there has been almost no discussion of him from anywhere around the Kings.
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. We're still a terrible team with Cousins so should we trade him? Even bad teams have things that you can build on. I'm not saying Dalembert should be the ideal model of a frontcourt pairing with Cousins but they worked well together and Cauley-Stein (while not as big a body) gives more lateral quickness, more athleticism, much better defense in the pick and roll, possibly better shotblocking and at least the same level of offense in time. And without Dalembert's penchant for complaining about touches and rumored locker room lawyering.
And the fact that teams are now often doubling Cuz is actually a point in favor of Cauley-Stein. It means he'll have open looks on dump offs or drives.
N0tmyfault
Bench
I seem to remember Cousins throwing lobs to McLemore last season -- and it's tough to say that Blake is a better passer than DMC... they are both great passers for big men, along with Noah. I'd say you can make an argument that all three are top 3 passing bigs in the league, with strong debates on who is #1. I'd go with Noah, as he's been doing it longer. DMC has great court vision and excellent passing touch. He would have no issues throwing up lobs to WCS.
DMC has great handles, too. Yes, he's overconfident and forces the fast-break when he should not be dribbling against great guard defenders. The difference between Blake and DMC, imo, is Blake is quicker. But I don't see a glaring difference between the two players handles.
Here's a passing highlight reel of DMC for the posters who seemed to forget his excellent passing ouch. He can pass from anywhere on the court (and I mean anywhere!), not just from the post.
Hadlowe
Starter
I think you can effectively build a DMC/WCS frontcourt on the Spurs model of Duncan/Splitter where big to big passing was at least 1/2 of their effectiveness. WCS is at least as offensively competent as Splitter at this moment. You can even have Rudy play the Boris Diaw role against certain matchups when you need to unclog the middle.
Bosnian Diehard
Starter
I'm afraid Vlade might let his ex-Yugo bias kick in which will lead to him deciding to go with Hezonja as a tiebreaker with other prospects. But, I still trist Vlade enough to give whatever pick he makes a fair chance to show they are for real.
DX now has Mudiay falling past Kings to Nuggets. Givony writes "Mario Hezonja is rumored to be the player he (Divac)'s currently most comfortable with". One thing I'm sure of at this point is that Givony has no idea, what Vlade thinks about the draft at this point.
Ford has WCS falling to #11 in today's mock
Kyler from BI.com put WCS at #11 yesterday too with Kings opting for Manny as well
nbadraft.net had WCS at #9 to Charlotte with Kings picking Justise (Manny picked at #4)
In other words no one got a clue.
P.S. At this point everyone (except DX), who posted their mock after 15th, have WCS at #6, #9 or #11. Maybe Kings can drop to #9 and dump Carl for Marvin and another asset in the process.
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Hadlowe
Starter
All I have to go by is the eyeball test, but I don't think so. Surrounding cast has something to do with it too. Blake has much better targets to hit in Jordan for lobs and Reddick, Barnes, Paul and Crawford for jumpers. Cousins has better vision on backdoors and catching wing and corner guys on skip passes, but his teammates tend not to finish a lot of their looks.
The biggest argument against Cousins as a passer is his TO rate, which is partially him trying to make homerun passes and partially his overconfidence in an ability to dribble through traffic and up the floor after a rebound.
No, but Cousins-Dalembert didn't work. Cousins was still dominant next to JT as he was next to dalembert. Numbers reflect that.
Cauley stein gives us defense at the 4. He's quickness to keep up with all the stretch 4s. His rim protection is amazing. For a guy who can guard the perimeter, how often would we actually want him guarding the perimeter? Draymond works very well with the Warriors because when they switch, they usually have Harrison Barnes 6'8 on the PF.. We have Ben?
I just don't think we can over look WCS's lack off offense then point to DeAndre Jordan on the Clippers. That's an entire different situation.
Blake is a better passer because he can distribute as the main ball handler. That's something Cuz can't do because he usually pushes it and it results in a lot of TOs. They are both great passers, but I personally believe Griffin is the much better passer, but Cousins is the better passer from the paint.
Griffin is on another level of handles. This is not Cousins fault. Griffin is a PF and he's just naturally quicker. I cringe when I see Cuz handling the ball and bringing it up. He forces it a lot of times. Griffin is just a better overall passer and ball handler.
I think its safe to say both are in the top 5 though.
Kings will have Gay in place of Barnes last time I checked.
And WCS can relieve Gay of some defensive duties, when Rudy faces bigger SFs.
jcwkings
All-Star
Im leaning towards Hezonja, Mudiaye or Winslow over WCS. WCS has too many holes in his game to take that high. If he was a great rebounder I would take him, but he is a Javele type rebounder, just stands up straight and hopes his length and jump will be enough. Great rebounders have the base to just body you up and not even have to jump for rebounds half the time.
Mudiaye is falling simply because other guys like Porzingis have surprised. He is still the strong, long, physical lead guard we need. He and Collison would be a great PG tandem. Hezonja and Winslow will do more for you on both ends and have star potential. Those 3 guys have star potential, WCS will be a 25-28 min a game specialist. IMO
Mudiaye is falling simply because other guys like Porzingis have surprised. He is still the strong, long, physical lead guard we need. He and Collison would be a great PG tandem. Hezonja and Winslow will do more for you on both ends and have star potential. Those 3 guys have star potential, WCS will be a 25-28 min a game specialist. IMO
In what way did Cousins and Dalembert not work?
And yes, the numbers reflect that Cousins was a better player in subsequent seasons. That's often the case for really good players who are no longer rookies. They tend to improve.
Cauley-Stein shouldn't be guarding the perimeter in the NBA unless it's an opposing PF who has a reliable outside shot. Yes, he can show, hedge or ICE on the pick and roll and has the length and lateral quickness to stay with the ball handler briefly before returning to his man (which is what makes him such a successful weapon against the pick and roll) but in general he should be a weakside defender who can protect the rim and cover a lot of ground when rotating to help. If you're comparing the Warriors switching on picks with Barnes the Kings analog would be Gay who is just as tall plus longer and stronger than Barnes. Now if a team runs a pick and roll with their SG and PF then you'd have Ben attempting to guard a PF on the switch. But why would you switch that pick and roll? That defeats a lot of the purpose of having a defender like WCS? Taken to an extreme, if Collison and Cousins run a pick and roll against the Warriors would you expect Curry to switch on to Cousins? Switching is only one of a number of ways to defend the pick and roll and I'd argue that it's the least effective unless the ball handler and screener are approximately the same size.
Jason Thompson scored six points a game last season on 47% shooting. In about the same minutes at Kentucky Cauley-Stein scored 9 per game on 57% shooting despite the lack of a real post game and the facts that (1) he was playing with two other bigs in Towns and Lyles and (2) the NCAA paint is far more clogged than it is in the NBA and (3) his coach didn't want him taking midrange jumpers, same as with Cousins.
I simply don't see how (once Cauley-Stein has had his adjustment period to the NBA) that he'll be less effective offensively than JT was last season. He will never be a go to scorer or put up a ton of points but I think people need to let go of the idea that Cauley-Stein is going to be a huge detriment on the offensive side of the ball.
Absolutely. And really the ability to create their own shot. I think Winslow has a very high floor but I can't see him as a star player. I can't think of anyone who came into the league with a similar set of skills, weaknesses and physical attributes who became a star player. Kawhi Leonard is about the closest and he (1) has always had a much better handle than Winslow and (2) has G0-Go-Gadget arms.
Dime Dropper
All-Star
Jimmy Butler?
I don't think he's similar to Kawhi at all, and Kawhi's handles really weren't good coming into the league, they were a weakness.
I don't think he's similar to Kawhi at all, and Kawhi's handles really weren't good coming into the league, they were a weakness.
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
Not really. The Clippers just have players that actually make open shots
You know, it's funny but I made this same comment a while back and you had the same answer and I don't think I ever responded, though I meant to.
You're right. Butler is a pretty good comp for Winslow. Physically there's some differences (same weight entering the draft but Winslow has a three inch advantage in wingspan and reach despite being an inch and a half shorter) but they are similar players in terms of being gamers, tough defenders, and strong bodied guys who work hard at developing their game. They played in roughly equivalent conferences and Butler's sophomore year stats at Marquette match up very closely with Winslow's one year at Duke, especially on a per 40 minute adjusted level.
Butler shot the ball a bit better 53% overall compared to Winslow's 49%. Both had a great percentage from three (50% for Butler, 42% for Winslow) though Butler took less than a third as many long bombs as Justice. Everywhere else though they are about equal or Winslow has a slight edge.
I don't see Jimmy Butler as a star player. I see him as a very high level role player. And I think that's exactly what Justice Winslow is likely to become. Good call.
jcwkings
All-Star
Winslow has a body type similar to Lance Stephenson in terms of height, wingspan, mass. His game will be like Jimmy Butler though, will easily play the 2 or the 3. You can't go wrong picking Justice and his ceiling is pretty high imo, if he can become a very good ball handler he has two way star written all over him. He has shown enough of his shooting that he will develop into a very good spot shooter. He could be a SG version of Leonard/Butler in his prime. At worst he will be one of the top 3 and D guys in the league, but there is potential for much more.
Bosnian Diehard
Starter
Reports coming out saying that Denver want to trade Ty Lawson for the #6 pick, straight up.
If true, I'd accept this as long as WCS is off the board. We don't give up any major assets and our bench gets a major boost, whether it's Lawson or Collison coming off the bench.
If true, I'd accept this as long as WCS is off the board. We don't give up any major assets and our bench gets a major boost, whether it's Lawson or Collison coming off the bench.
If it's just the 6 for Lawson, I'd consider it. If there's more, and, (doesn't there have to be?), well, it depends.
If we can send off Landry, then duh, and, of course! Collison? No. We have not really improved our team. Depth was our issue. Not the starting 5. (4)
If we can send off Landry, then duh, and, of course! Collison? No. We have not really improved our team. Depth was our issue. Not the starting 5. (4)
Kings Faithful
Starter
I feel like i would want a bit more value than a straight up 6 for Lawson trade. Plus, the salaries wouldn't work. We would need to dump salary for it to work.
I'm starting to get the horrible feeling the Kings are going to make some "win now" moves this offseason that both fail to help the team win now while also mortgaging the future.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
That's what happens when the clock is ticking on God's plan
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