Now I'm worried again.... no bench

[CruzDude]

Last few games the bench has been pretty unproductive (was starting to say terrible....) and getting eaten up by the competition. BJax has been erratice and worse. Offensively the rest (Songalia, Tag and a bit of Barnes) have offensively been all but none existant.

Bobby looks like he is trying too hard to make up the difference. Songalia is solid for rebounding but has not pickedup much scoring. Barnes looks good but isn't helping. Why not try Daniels or Evans? they can hustle, run and shoot and maybe rebound a bit.

We need a bench and we need it bad. Too many starters are playing 40 minutes or so too early in the season. Not good. Not good at all. Gotta do somethin...... not sure what or with who but something.....

 

[slugking50]

Frankly Its hard to disagree with you. Looks like our bench wont be enough at this point. I guess GP needs to do some magic... or we can sit on our hands and hope the bench somehow gets ALOT better bewtween now and the PO.....

 

[Bricklayer]

Problem for Evans or Martin, is that they happen to play the position (OG) where we might have the most depth (which is to say we have Bobby to eat up almost all those minutes behind Doug). And neither one is big enough to play SF (where Barnes normally gets his few minutes), and I never EVER want to see either one trying to run the point again (where Bobby also is).

Our ideal balance from a few years back was:
6th: Bobby 1/2
7th: Hedo 2/3/4
8th: Pollard 4/5

We had everything covered, and versatile guys.

But now our bench is not only shallow, not only inexperienced, but there is little versatility there. After you get past Bobby, the only other guy on the whole bench who is a true multipositional guy is Barnes, who can swing the 3/2. Darius is a pure 4 -- too small to play C, too slow to play SF; Tag is a pure 5, Evans and Martin pure 2s. Daniels MIGHT be able to swing to OG or PF, but the reality is that he's a SF -- doesn't shoot or handle like a guard, way too small to log major minutes up front. He's also a 12th man who barely made the roster.

End result is that if our SINGLE PF backup is having an off night, well, we pretty much don't get to have a backup 4 that night. If Tag is struggling or teams are quick, well, no backup center for us that game. There is no 3rd PG at all. No minutes for two interesting athletic young guys in Martin and Evans, because both are limited and are restricted as the least valuable single-position bench guys you can find -- nothing quite so limited as a pure OG, in particular when your bench star is a major minute 1/2 combo. And even if one of the single-position guys are having a strong game, its hard to get them big minutes, because they all have to come at a single position pretty much - we depend on our STARTERS to be flexible and work around the bench guys rather than the other way around. We can't really be flexible and try matching up with our bench because there IS no flexibility.

Thing is, at this point in the season, our only hope for grabbing a significant player to change that situation is if somebody cuts somebody loose to save some money or whatnot. Otherwise the only other option is a trade, and we have very few pieces to pull that off (besides core guys that is).

 

[Zyphen]

I hope we can funnel some of Indiana's bench players after their core group comes back from injury/suspension. They'll be over the limit and will definitely need to cut some guys.

I think our core group is pretty much untouchable. No one wants our bench.

We're in a bad position to deal Peja and his issues will have to wait till the offseason. He has no real backup. I'll be the first one to admit I'm overcritical of him but I don't feel bad about it. I can't get behind a player as a Kings fan when the player himself, is not a Kings fan. I hope he sits out a few games with his bruise so we can see what we're really missing without him (though we don't have anyone else to patch the position adequately). But if we start dealing core group, he's definitely the first to go. You can't depend on a guy who doesn't want to be here. Until that changes or he leaves, I'm not cutting him any slack. I can forgive bad performances played with heart. I despise performances, good or bad, played to satisfy a contract. We're playing for a championship. He's playing for his job. If it doesn't matter to him, why should he matter to me.

 

[Bricklayer]

I hope we can funnel some of Indiana's bench players after their core group comes back from injury/suspension. They'll be over the limit and will definitely need to cut some guys.

I think our core group is pretty much untouchable. No one wants our bench.

We're in a bad position to deal Peja and his issues will have to wait till the offseason. He has no real backup. I'll be the first one to admit I'm overcritical of him but I don't feel bad about it. I can't get behind a player as a Kings fan when the player himself, is not a Kings fan. I hope he sits out a few games with his bruise so we can see what we're really missing without him (though we don't have anyone else to patch the position adequately). But if we start dealing core group, he's definitely the first to go. You can't depend on a guy who doesn't want to be here. Until that changes or he leaves, I'm not cutting him any slack. I can forgive bad performances played with heart. I despise performances, good or bad, played to satisfy a contract. We're playing for a championship. He's playing for his job. If it doesn't matter to him, why should he matter to me.

I don't think trading Peja for bench depth is exactly going to enhance our championship aspirations, whatever his motivations.

 

[Zyphen]

If you think in his current form, we can win a championship you may have something there. But the guy is going to leave anyway. Also, I never said to trade him for bench players. Any bench we need, we'll have to sign in addition. If we trade core, we get core back. Maybe a SF who can rebound. We got enough shooters.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm sorry, thought we were discussing bench issues here. Trade Peja threads are on the second aisle to the left.

 

[Zyphen]

Heh, other threads have been derailed a lot worse than this. Going from bench trades to trades as a whole is pretty tame. I blame you for mentioning core guys in first place; probably where I got the idea (j/k).

Nice way of trying to steer the subject back though. I'll let it rest. Was my disappointment and anger with a certain player a bit too transparent?

Houston got a really sweet deal signing a relative unkown who gets major minutes from Bob Sura's share. There are talented players out there. We just gotta find em. Indiana picked up quite a few. The Maloofs just gotta be willing to open up their wallets.

 

[piksi]

How about Pedja for Ron Artest ?

 

[Rockmeister]

How about Pedja for Ron Artest ?

Oh brother!

 

[Zyphen]

* editted by Zyphen *

Bah, I got caught up in a Peja trade discussion again... mentioned stuff about hating Ron and liking R. Lewis.

Peja is not going anywhere. He's too hard to trade in our current situation. But we'll be forced to look at it come the offseason unless he wakes up and realizes how good he has it here. There's exactly 5 teams in the league he'd do close to as well on.

 

[piksi]

Yea, thank gawd we didn't go through with that one, though I don't think it was considered seriously. The Pacers are too good to trade to, plus Ron is a punk. I woulda traded for Rashard Lewis but not anymore since the Sonics are now a threat. The only way something like that could benefit us now is if we did a 3 way to get Lewis and dropped Peja with Houston or something. Peja is only worth more than his contract on exactly 5 teams. Van Gundy will ruin him. Peja can start to appreciate the Kings while he's there... Then again, if they fire Gundy...

Anyways, I'm almost 100% sure we're keeping Peja for at least this season. He better wake up and realize how good he has it. Our bench woes really mean nothing behind the fact that 1 of our best players doesn't have his heart here. Him showing up for the playoffs > bench.

It goes both ways. You never know what You really have until You lose it. It goes for Pedja but also for Kings as well. Pedja is not helping his situation but neither are his teammates( Bibby ). What went on against Wolves was ridicoulous at least. When CW is in the game he at least looks for Pedja. When he is out good luck getting the ball from Bobby/Bibby. You lose the rythm and the motivation to do anything else. If Pedja cared as much as he should he should go to Bibby and make sure to get across the point by any means neccessary. Unfortunately, he is not confrontational so he will wait it out. BTW Kings are 6-0 when he leads the team in scoring

 

[Zyphen]

Crap, guess I didn't edit out my last post soon enough.

I never denied Peja was a good player. But if he wants to leave, you're kinda forced into looking at trades. How can you build around him and Webb if he's threatening to pack up and go? I know that most trade scenarios will probably leave us worse off, but we can't progress with his kind of **** hanging over our heads.

If we were 6-0 in playoffs when he leads the team in scoring, that'll mean something to me (less outside variables). In a regular season year, Bobby had a better W-L record than Bibby when he started games off as point guard. Is that all attributed to Bobby or are there outside factors? People eat more ice cream in the summer and murders happen more often too. Does A imply B? When Mcgrady leads his team in scoring, I'm more comfortable giving him more of the credit for a win. When Peja leads the Kings in scoring, more of that credit is given to his teammates for creating the opportunities.

We'll definitely be hurt to lose him, but that does not change the fact that it's his choice, not ours, on whether or not he stays. I think we're just asking to get the carpet yanked out from under us if we proceed like nothing's happened.

To clarify, I'm not knocking Peja as a player (well, somewhat, but not the whole focus), but as a competitor. I know very well it's unlikely we'll be trading up and we'll be lucky to break even. However, the reality of it is that unless Peja does a 180 on us, he's going to go and it might as well be on our terms. I don't want us to rush into anything but I hope Petrie is on the lookout for potential deals year round.

 

[piksi]

I can live with this.

BTW - Bobby is by far more compleate player compared to Bibby. I would bet that he is killing him in practice. Bobby plays hard on both ends of the court. He does not cheat his teammates on defense.

 

[KP]

I can live with this.

BTW - Bobby is by far more compleate player compared to Bibby. I would bet that he is killing him in practice. Bobby plays hard on both ends of the court. He does not cheat his teammates on defense.

Even Bobbys been getting killed off the dribble this year(not sure why) A lot of media has been talking about it. Did you see the key steal by Mike at the end of the game? Even though he can't stop anyone, Mike can't help being a Huge playmaker! For that matter either can Bobby... good problem to have.

 

[Zyphen]

On defense I'll give it to you, but I think Bibby is better as a point guard. Bobby is more of a hybrid PG/SG. Bibby has got to be doing something right to get the start all these seasons right? Though I would say the difference between the 2 in value is very minimal. Bibby also has a deserved reputation as a clutch shooter. If we didn't put offense first, Bobby has a legitimate case for getting the start. Luckily for us, most teams don't have PGs that are a main scorer (as it should be).

 

[KP]

At least Mikes trying

Mikes been getting a lot more rebounds lately too. Not to mention those offensive tip ins. Maybe Bobbys rubbing off on him. But he's def commited to improving the teams rebounding, now if they can just get Peja on board...

 

[VF21]

Crap, guess I didn't edit out my last post soon enough.

I never denied Peja was a good player. But if he wants to leave, you're kinda forced into looking at trades. How can you build around him and Webb if he's threatening to pack up and go? I know that most trade scenarios will probably leave us worse off, but we can't progress with his kind of **** hanging over our heads.

Word is there is no real indication that he is still unhappy and wanting to leave. Things have settled down - and I believe he is smart enough to realize he's with a very good organization and the grass ISN'T always greener on the other side. He's happy - it shows in his interactions with the other members of the team, it shows with Grant in post-game interviews, it shows in his public appearances.

Mikes been getting a lot more rebounds lately too. Not to mention those offensive tip ins. Maybe Bobbys rubbing off on him. But he's def commited to improving the teams rebounding, now if they can just get Peja on board...

I agree about Bibby. He's quietly putting up better numbers on a consistent basis in the boards columns.

As far as the main theme of the thread goes, I'm not worried. Concerned? Sure. But this is December. We still have an open roster slot. I'm quite convinced, as I've said in other threads, that Petrie has thought this all out and is waiting for the right player at the right time. I'm not at all doubtful of him finding someone - look at his track record in that respect.

We don't need to be perfect in December. We need to be addressing problems so that we can be as close to perfect as possible in April, May and June.

GO KINGS!!!

 

[Zyphen]

Word is there is no real indication that he is still unhappy and wanting to leave. Things have settled down - and I believe he is smart enough to realize he's with a very good organization and the grass ISN'T always greener on the other side. He's happy - it shows in his interactions with the other members of the team, it shows with Grant in post-game interviews, it shows in his public appearances.

He's not going to wear his dissatisfaction on his sleeve. He still has not withdrawn his trade demand. In his more candid interviews with Serbian media, he reiterates his wish to be traded. I'm glad he's got enough decency to put on a good face. But that's all it is to me until he comes right out and says that he'd like to stay a King. Is that so hard to say if he's really happy? He probably gets asked about his trade request often enough by the media. He's holding out. Nothing's changed. He's happy to be a star athlete. He may or may not be happy as a King. According to him, he's not. So unless he's a liar...

I gotta say that the Kings and the fans are way too mellow on Peja. Vince Carter is getting killed up in Toronto and they practically forced him to say he was happy. Even after that, people are still looking to trade him because he's damaged his image as a competitor. He's going to be questioned for a long time on his dedication to the Raptors and helping them to the playoffs. That's rightly deserved too. I'm tired of spoiled athletes going public with their "demands".

 

[bozzwell]

He's not going to wear his dissatisfaction on his sleeve. He still has not withdrawn his trade demand. In his more candid interviews with Serbian media, he reiterates his wish to be traded. I'm glad he's got enough decency to put on a good face. But that's all it is to me until he comes right out and says that he'd like to stay a King. Is that so hard to say if he's really happy? He probably gets asked about his trade request often enough by the media. He's holding out. Nothing's changed. He's happy to be a star athlete. He may or may not be happy as a King. According to him, he's not. So unless he's a liar...

You're actually starting to annoy me with your extremely piksimistic interpretation of the facts concernign Pedja. I follow coverage of Pedja in Serbian media religously. If I were to interpret Pedja's body language and Serbian media appearances in any way I would be more inclined to see it VF21's way. He may be happy and he may never rescind the trade demand. Are you gonna hold out until he writes an open letter to all the Kings' fans and officially withdraws the request.

 

[Zyphen]

No, he just has to tell the next media person to ask him that he is no longer seeking a trade. And if he never does do that and yet stays on with the organization, I think that's a very selfish thing to do. The team hinges on his decision. He can stay quiet, but I think it's unreasonable to think it'll be business as usual. Interpreting his smiles, gestures, etc... is not what I'd consider factual evidence. People in general don't often wear their negative thoughts/feelings on their faces.

Carlos Boozer burned the Cavaliers in a similar fashion.

If you think about it rationally, you guys are asking me to accept your view of things based on your interpretations of his body language. Am I being pessimistic? For relying on his spoken words to form an opinion? Who's being the subjective one here.

 

[Bricklayer]

My bigger concern with Peja is not so much his motivation (although I am still wary of that). Its simply -- can he perform well enough against the elite teams in the playoffs for us to be a championship team? Quite frankly, is he good enough? If we run into Minnesota or San Antonio in the playoffs, and chances are we will, if Peja averages 15pts on sub-40% shooting in the series, we will fall short again. And if he fails us again, maybe I don't care so much whether he wants to leave or not. Its pointless to have the best shooter in the world on your team if come the playoffs he disappears -- the best teams ALWAYS have a stopper at his position (Fox, Bowen, Hassel, Artest, Prince etc.). If he can't beat those guys, if their defense is better than his offense, then he's fools gold. And like him or not, think he's hot or not, love to watch that shot or not, if he can't help us come May/June, he's got to go in favor of somebody who can.

Big year for Peja whether he wants to resign with us or not. The world is very much on notice about his consistent playoff failures at this point. If he flames out again, he's going to have a heck of a time ever shaking the playoff choker label. Become Clifford Robinson II.

 

[bozzwell]

No, he just has to tell the next media person to ask him that he is no longer seeking a trade. And if he never does do that and yet stays on with the organization, I think that's a very selfish thing to do. The team hinges on his decision. He can stay quiet, but I think it's unreasonable to think it'll be business as usual. Interpreting his smiles, gestures, etc... is not what I'd consider factual evidence. People in general don't often wear their negative thoughts/feelings on their faces.

It is entirely possible that the same issues that made him make a request have not been completely addressed if at all. In his most recent interviews he is tiptooing around the issue. He should probably make statement one way or the other - I am with you on that. However, either way, i don't see that as a problem. The only issue I have with Pedja are on the court (rebounding and dissapearing acts). Anything else, whether it concerns his contract, status with Kings etc. are simply irrelevant and I do not contribute to my opinion of him. You seem to be suggesting that his lame attempt at excercising "player power"...erm... I mean the trade request is a character flaw of some sorts. You will simply never have enough facts publicly available to conclusively prove that. He did not ask for a trade without some reason and we really don't know what that is and if it was addressed by Kings in any shapre or form. We know that it is not Vlade leaving (according to Vlade) or Webber outburst (if it was, Webber and Pedja have made up since).

Carlos Boozer burned the Cavaliers in a similar fashion.

Wow! How can you compare the two?

If you think about it rationally, you guys are asking me to accept your view of things based on your interpretations of his body language. Am I being pessimistic? For relying on his spoken words to form an opinion? Who's being the subjective one here.

Of course I am subjective. Highly so. I am NOT asking you to censor your own thought on the subject or back off with what I percieve are your own biases on this one issue, I am just trying to provide a counter-point.

 

[Zyphen]

And if we fail again because of that, it'll go along with his "the Kings have had their chance" and "the Kings need a fresh start" comments.

But Brick brings up a good point. The only way he comes back is if he has a great performance in the playoffs, hopefully allowing us to win it all. He'd be a fool not to come back to a champion team. On the other hand, if we choke again, we may not want him back anyway. I'd like to point out that his motivation may very likely affect whether or not he chokes unless you think it's a question of skill level entirely?

I'm not prepared to accept the "Peja is happy" hypothesis without more objective evidence. At the most optimistic, I can take "Peja is thinking it over" but that doesn't change the fact that we have to prepare if he leaves. If you're not ready to trade him, it'll just be like what happened to Orlando when Shaq left.

Peja is not happy to be a King according to his own words. Therefore, I question Peja's motivation in helping a team who, by his own words, he says has already passed up its chance to win a championship.

 

[bozzwell]

My bigger concern with Peja is not so much his motivation (although I am still wary of that). Its simply -- can he perform well enough against the elite teams in the playoffs for us to be a championship team? Quite frankly, is he good enough? If we run into Minnesota or San Antonio in the playoffs, and chances are we will, if Peja averages 15pts on sub-40% shooting in the series, we will fall short again. And if he fails us again, maybe I don't care so much whether he wants to leave or not. Its pointless to have the best shooter in the world on your team if come the playoffs he disappears -- the best teams ALWAYS have a stopper at his position (Fox, Bowen, Hassel, Artest, Prince etc.). If he can't beat those guys, if their defense is better than his offense, then he's fools gold. And like him or not, think he's hot or not, love to watch that shot or not, if he can't help us come May/June, he's got to go in favor of somebody who can.

Big year for Peja whether he wants to resign with us or not. The world is very much on notice about his consistent playoff failures at this point. If he flames out again, he's going to have a heck of a time ever shaking the playoff choker label. Become Clifford Robinson II.

Amen to that. Us, Pedja boosters, believe that he has it in him to be a great player. However, he will need every opportunity and lots of help to fulfill his potential. He will not reach that on any team that does not push him in the right directiona and that does not provide right support. I believe that his best chance is with Webber (this year's edition, minus Minny game) and the Kings. But there is lots of work that needs to be done there...

On the other hand, would you not agree that almost the same is true of our other stars? If Webber does not do his thing in the PO's, if Bibby doesn't start defending come May/June, etc. etc?

 

[Zyphen]

It is entirely possible that the same issues that made him make a request have not been completely addressed if at all. In his most recent interviews he is tiptooing around the issue. He should probably make statement one way or the other - I am with you on that. However, either way, i don't see that as a problem. The only issue I have with Pedja are on the court (rebounding and dissapearing acts). Anything else, whether it concerns his contract, status with Kings etc. are simply irrelevant and I do not contribute to my opinion of him. You seem to be suggesting that his lame attempt at excercising "player power"...erm... I mean the trade request is a character flaw of some sorts. You will simply never have enough facts publicly available to conclusively prove that. He did not ask for a trade without some reason and we really don't know what that is and if it was addressed by Kings in any shapre or form. We know that it is not Vlade leaving (according to Vlade) or Webber outburst (if it was, Webber and Pedja have made up since).

It's true that I can't measure competitiveness. However, I do believe that some intangibles in life have obvious thresholds of existence (not to say his competitiveness is non-existent, just lacking). I don't think Peja is intentionally lowering his play to force a trade (that would hurt him as well, since it'll lower his value and I don't think he's that petty). I think he has poor motivation relative to the other players. I have no doubt in my mind that what he has displayed so far is not what he is capable of.

All things being equal, we judge players' abilities with the unspoken assumption that their underlying motivation is winning a championship. This does not make it an impossibility for a player who is not highly motivated to win a championship. However, all things being equal, I would suggest it's much less likely (especially if they are a key player). This is why I'm highly concerned. His performance on the court IS a function of his motivation. He has some motivation in the form of doing his job which gets him on the court in the first place, but beyond that, it's definitely a concern of mine.

The sooner we can definitively determine Peja's status, the better. I would say our playoff chances would drastically improve if he himself believed this team could do it. He says we can't win it and that very well may be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Also, I bet it's at some level going to affect his teammates during the playoffs if he drags it on till then. They'll think twice before passing to Peja. Webber talked a lot about heart and wanting it in his interviews. That's real. I believe it. Even if Peja decides definitively that he's not coming back, he should square with his team before the playoffs so they know who exactly they're playing with. He can promise them his best efforts but don't expect him to take last minute shots. You can't depend on a player who has lost faith in his team to carry you. He'll be solid, but no one will expect superhuman feats and rightly so.

 

[VF21]

Zyphen - Your "more candid interviews with Serbian media" notwithstanding, I have reliable information - current information, not dated like the interviews - that says Pedja is NO LONGER pursuing the idea of being traded from the Kings.

You are in Virginia. I am in California, and know quite a few people who deal with the Kings first-hand, second-hand, etc. I have been to a couple of games already this year, and have seen the difference in Pedja between the pre-season and now. He is HAPPY - he is playing within the team and he is enjoying his time off the court. You are being the skeptic - and from a long way away - based only on some interviews given to Serbian media at some time in the past.

Our LOCAL media people (who deal with the team on a DAILY basis up close and personal) have said, for the most part, that they feel Pedja will simply let the matter die without retracting his statement. That is a wise thing to do, since a retraction would only lead to "But why did you say it in the first place?" type questions. The media are a pushy lot.

 

[R1LOVER]

The bench will be the bench, coach will never play them enough to get much better and then in a few years we will trade them and they will be the highlight show every night.......


Look at Wallace...... Rick never gave him a chance to play and improve(unless it was 90 seconds in a blow-out) and look what he's doing now! I have to give some props to wallace for stepping up and showing everyone he can play if his coach would let him.

My point is Rick doesn't play the bench enough and untill he does will be in the same situation we are and have been...............

 

[Kingsgurl]

So, how long has he thought this? Is that the reason for his post season failures to date? What does that say about his character if so? Some players live for the big shot (Mike Bibby) Some seem to thrive on being the underdog ( I would put Chris and Bobby in this category) What is Peja's motivation?

 

[R1LOVER]

Zyphen - Your "more candid interviews with Serbian media" notwithstanding, I have reliable information - current information, not dated like the interviews - that says Pedja is NO LONGER pursuing the idea of being traded from the Kings.

You are in Virginia. I am in California, and know quite a few people who deal with the Kings first-hand, second-hand, etc. I have been to a couple of games already this year, and have seen the difference in Pedja between the pre-season and now. He is HAPPY - he is playing within the team and he is enjoying his time off the court. You are being the skeptic - and from a long way away - based only on some interviews given to Serbian media at some time in the past.

Our LOCAL media people (who deal with the team on a DAILY basis up close and personal) have said, for the most part, that they feel Pedja will simply let the matter die without retracting his statement. That is a wise thing to do, since a retraction would only lead to "But why did you say it in the first place?" type questions. The media are a pushy lot.

I agree, I have been to about 6-8 games this year and at first you could see the difference and now he is back to normal and his gestures on the court prove it!