not so odd. that's confirmation bias for ya. it's amazing to see the lengths some kings fans will go to as they spurn the young, home grown talent that should be valued and developed from within, but expect outside players with bad habits who are notorious for making their teams worse to improve upon a losing culture...
Monta
- Thread starter rainmaker
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I wasn't high on Reke as a ball dominant PG because 1) His basketball IQ is average for an NBA player (below average for a lead guard) 2) You need to be able to shoot off the dribble as a ball dominant guard 3) I hadn't seen much if any improvement in his game in 4 seasons
However I was high on Reke as an off the ball, defensive stopper, transition player, slasher in the half court (I compared him to a less athletic Iggy in a SG's body many times, you can go back if you want)
I was also under the assumption that the FO has super high on McLemore and that he would start right away, but if they are going after Ellis they obviously feel McLemore will need time to settle in(like any rookie). So to me Reke not signing wasn't the end of the world because i don't want him at PG, Reke doesn't want to play SF, and the FO is high on McLemore at SG(which they are) . And for the record at $10-$11 million i would take Reke over Ellis (mainly because i like him, and he's a good character guy, and has Iggy to Iggy lite potential if he develops). But if you ask an non-biased fan it is a legit arguement. Reke is obviously the better defender, but offensively Ellis is a complete player, while Reke is only comfortable in the paint.
Though i do find it funny that a lot of people that hate an Ellis signing because he can't defend, also are the ones wanting to give Cousins a max contract right now( an abysmal defender who doesn't even try). A center is much more important to a defensive scheme than a guard, in today's NBA it is near impossible to keep guards from penetrating, while Cousins will never be a great shotblocker, he does have length, and if he would try to improve, and give a crap theres no reason he could have the same effect a guy like Duncan has defensively. Duncan is not athletic, but he has incredible defensive awareness.
However I was high on Reke as an off the ball, defensive stopper, transition player, slasher in the half court (I compared him to a less athletic Iggy in a SG's body many times, you can go back if you want)
I was also under the assumption that the FO has super high on McLemore and that he would start right away, but if they are going after Ellis they obviously feel McLemore will need time to settle in(like any rookie). So to me Reke not signing wasn't the end of the world because i don't want him at PG, Reke doesn't want to play SF, and the FO is high on McLemore at SG(which they are) . And for the record at $10-$11 million i would take Reke over Ellis (mainly because i like him, and he's a good character guy, and has Iggy to Iggy lite potential if he develops). But if you ask an non-biased fan it is a legit arguement. Reke is obviously the better defender, but offensively Ellis is a complete player, while Reke is only comfortable in the paint.
Though i do find it funny that a lot of people that hate an Ellis signing because he can't defend, also are the ones wanting to give Cousins a max contract right now( an abysmal defender who doesn't even try). A center is much more important to a defensive scheme than a guard, in today's NBA it is near impossible to keep guards from penetrating, while Cousins will never be a great shotblocker, he does have length, and if he would try to improve, and give a crap theres no reason he could have the same effect a guy like Duncan has defensively. Duncan is not athletic, but he has incredible defensive awareness.
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Actually, after thinking it trough, a lineup of:
PG) Monta Ellis
SG) McLemore
SF) MWP/AK47
PF) Patterson
C) Cousins
That would be a very very good offensive lineup. Hopefully Malone could create a defense so that they work efficiently as a team on defense and don't depend on man-to-man. Not to mention a decent bench with the likes of Vasquez, Landry, Thornton, IT, and Thompson.
PG) Monta Ellis
SG) McLemore
SF) MWP/AK47
PF) Patterson
C) Cousins
That would be a very very good offensive lineup. Hopefully Malone could create a defense so that they work efficiently as a team on defense and don't depend on man-to-man. Not to mention a decent bench with the likes of Vasquez, Landry, Thornton, IT, and Thompson.
There are scenarios where Monta wouldn't be awful. For starters, if we clear out our junk (Chuck, Jimmer), sing Monta to $8mil/year to play 6th Man, Sign Brandan Wright, that leaves you with:
PG: Vasquez || Monta
SG: McLemore || Monta
SF: ???
PF: Brandon Wright || Landry
C: Cousins
Which leaves us Ppat, JT, IT, Thornton to go fill the SF position. Still, it's highly unlikely the FA has anything close to this lined up
PG: Vasquez || Monta
SG: McLemore || Monta
SF: ???
PF: Brandon Wright || Landry
C: Cousins
Which leaves us Ppat, JT, IT, Thornton to go fill the SF position. Still, it's highly unlikely the FA has anything close to this lined up
Jason Jones (@mr_jasonjones) tweeted at 1:09 AM on Tue, Jul 09, 2013:
Kings pursuit of Monta Ellis has some league observers baffled. Kings collecting guards? Why?
(https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/35451266760
5610496)
Kings pursuit of Monta Ellis has some league observers baffled. Kings collecting guards? Why?
(https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/35451266760
5610496)
Then:
Jason Jones (@mr_jasonjones) tweeted at 1:11 AM on Tue, Jul 09, 2013:
Barring salary-dump trades, amnesty of Salmons quickest way to free up cash (about $7 mill). He's only "SF" on roster. Small ball anyone?
(https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/354513088881496064)
Jason Jones (@mr_jasonjones) tweeted at 1:11 AM on Tue, Jul 09, 2013:
Barring salary-dump trades, amnesty of Salmons quickest way to free up cash (about $7 mill). He's only "SF" on roster. Small ball anyone?
(https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/354513088881496064)
Having played with Monta twice in quick team up (you play one position, presumably with 9 other people) I can honestly say you need to find the open man and be unselfish as Monta. He is not a clutch 3 point shooter, so I only take the midrange jumpers. Or pump fake and take it to the rack if my man bites.
Of course with Tyreke I would be drawing a double team, kicking out to McLemlore for the open 3. Or I would do some fancy ball handling and go down low to big cuz. Tyreke > Monta 10/10. I don't know how anyone can vote yes, but out of curiosity, why yes?
Is it because our biggest issue is talent to surround cousins with? Good thing we got Carl Landry back then! Brick, you can cancel that request I made to you about changing my screen name, my memory ain't what it used to be and it's easier to just leave it as is.
Of course with Tyreke I would be drawing a double team, kicking out to McLemlore for the open 3. Or I would do some fancy ball handling and go down low to big cuz. Tyreke > Monta 10/10. I don't know how anyone can vote yes, but out of curiosity, why yes?
Is it because our biggest issue is talent to surround cousins with? Good thing we got Carl Landry back then! Brick, you can cancel that request I made to you about changing my screen name, my memory ain't what it used to be and it's easier to just leave it as is.
nothing new, but seems like we're trying awfully hard to snatch Monta
The thing I don't understand is if Vivek and co. were irked that Iggy was taking his sweet time to commit to the Kings (though I firmly believe he was using us as leverage), why don't they get the same vibe from Monta who likes other teams ala Atlanta. Also a leverage play may be happening, but odd that they are gushing over Monta.
The thing I don't understand is if Vivek and co. were irked that Iggy was taking his sweet time to commit to the Kings (though I firmly believe he was using us as leverage), why don't they get the same vibe from Monta who likes other teams ala Atlanta. Also a leverage play may be happening, but odd that they are gushing over Monta.
I agree, i dont get it.
I already said this point earlier in the thread, but i must reiterate its imprtance. DMC/Vasquez/Monta were all in the top ten in the league in turnovers per game last year. And would all be starters... We arent winning ANYTHING with a core like that. I just dont get it.. shouldnt "The Nerd" be able too see this with his "Special Sauce"??? smh
I already said this point earlier in the thread, but i must reiterate its imprtance. DMC/Vasquez/Monta were all in the top ten in the league in turnovers per game last year. And would all be starters... We arent winning ANYTHING with a core like that. I just dont get it.. shouldnt "The Nerd" be able too see this with his "Special Sauce"??? smh
i have no idea what's happening. the kings' front office had a couple free agent targets they weren't able to snag. they traded tyreke for grievis vasquez, who is a role player at absolute best. then they sign carl landry to a healthy long-term contract. it doesn't make much sense, so maybe they're panicking? there was a lotta big talk of being aggressive via free agency, a lotta big talk of culture change and defensive improvement, but somebody over there is finally giving the ol' up-and-down to the roster-as-it-stands, and they're recognizing how difficult it is to move mid-level and low-level talent in exchange for useful assets...
under that pressure, perhaps vivek has stepped in with a mandate to sign monta ellis because his front office is just now grasping what it's like to try and build a winner in an undesirable small market that's been a perennial loser for nearly a decade. there are a great many who have criticized myself and others for believing that failing to re-sign tyreke evans is a catastrophic move. but what they don't seem to understand is what the new regime is just now figuring out: truly useful assets are hard to come by in sacramento...
as an isolated move on its own merit, trading tyreke evans for grievis vasquez and two second-rounders is a talent bleed, but it won't cripple your team long-term. however, as a domino effect, you run the rather serious risk of short-circuiting your entire rebuild because you are home to an utter dearth of assets. the kings have exactly two assets with immediate value: demarcus cousins and cap space (provided they amnesty john salmons). they have a third, less flexible asset in ben mclemore, but, as we saw with thomas robinson, if you're looking to move a lottery pick in his rookie season, before he's established himself and before he's earned a sizable contract, you're gonna get low-balled, and you're gonna get low-balled hard...
DMC is non-negotiable. they will not trade him. so, now that tyreke evans was moved for a roleplayer, what's left? the kings can package jason thompson with spare parts and bring back... ? they can package marcus thornton with spare parts and bring back... ? in theory, they could also package carl landry with spare parts and bring back... ? geoff petrie may have gone senile in the latter days of his career with the kings, but as a veteran GM at the height of his powers, he regularly turned scrap into value on the trade block. it was one of his best qualities. does anybody seriously expect this rookie front office to play ball at that level? they don't have the clout around the league to do so, and it's why they're now chasing monta ellis; they know that they need to acquire an asset, any asset, that might be useful down the road as a movable piece. it's a-hope-and-a-prayer strategy, as far as i can tell...
here's the facts of the case: when you have exactly one weighty player asset in demarcus cousins that you don't intend to trade, you're stuck. and here's the worst part: that one weighty player asset is in the final year of his rookie contract, and without a winning team full of more than mid-level and low-level players around him, he's got no reason to re-sign. if he walks, you're back at ground zero, and you've likely won too many games with your single weighty player asset in demarcus cousins that you aren't in a position to kick-start another rebuild with a shot at andrew wiggins. it's why i've been pounding the drum for the last year: re-sign evans, re-sign evans, re-sign evans...
he's a 23-year old guard with immense potential, and it's always easiest to retain your own talent when you're an undesirable small market franchise, either to develop from within, or to leverage at a later date (and yes, 4/$44 million for a young power guard not yet in his prime with career numbers of 18/5/5 is movable, whether the naysayers believe so or not). at absolute best, tyreke pans out and you don't need to move him at all. at absolute worst, you trade him for cap flexibility at a future date when a guy like monta ****ing ellis isn't your only recourse on the free agent market...
now the kings' front office likely has to beg and plead and overpay just to convince monta ellis to play for them, and that's not the kinda move you're looking to make when a culture change away from the toxicity of the previous era was your stated #1 goal. i've said it before and i'll say it again: you either overpay to keep tyreke evans, or you overpay to bring in somebody else. but even i didn't figure that Mr. Analytics was gonna get stuck trying to bring in the one guard that all analytics guys can agree is an absolute black hole and net negative for his team. amateurs...
under that pressure, perhaps vivek has stepped in with a mandate to sign monta ellis because his front office is just now grasping what it's like to try and build a winner in an undesirable small market that's been a perennial loser for nearly a decade. there are a great many who have criticized myself and others for believing that failing to re-sign tyreke evans is a catastrophic move. but what they don't seem to understand is what the new regime is just now figuring out: truly useful assets are hard to come by in sacramento...
as an isolated move on its own merit, trading tyreke evans for grievis vasquez and two second-rounders is a talent bleed, but it won't cripple your team long-term. however, as a domino effect, you run the rather serious risk of short-circuiting your entire rebuild because you are home to an utter dearth of assets. the kings have exactly two assets with immediate value: demarcus cousins and cap space (provided they amnesty john salmons). they have a third, less flexible asset in ben mclemore, but, as we saw with thomas robinson, if you're looking to move a lottery pick in his rookie season, before he's established himself and before he's earned a sizable contract, you're gonna get low-balled, and you're gonna get low-balled hard...
DMC is non-negotiable. they will not trade him. so, now that tyreke evans was moved for a roleplayer, what's left? the kings can package jason thompson with spare parts and bring back... ? they can package marcus thornton with spare parts and bring back... ? in theory, they could also package carl landry with spare parts and bring back... ? geoff petrie may have gone senile in the latter days of his career with the kings, but as a veteran GM at the height of his powers, he regularly turned scrap into value on the trade block. it was one of his best qualities. does anybody seriously expect this rookie front office to play ball at that level? they don't have the clout around the league to do so, and it's why they're now chasing monta ellis; they know that they need to acquire an asset, any asset, that might be useful down the road as a movable piece. it's a-hope-and-a-prayer strategy, as far as i can tell...
here's the facts of the case: when you have exactly one weighty player asset in demarcus cousins that you don't intend to trade, you're stuck. and here's the worst part: that one weighty player asset is in the final year of his rookie contract, and without a winning team full of more than mid-level and low-level players around him, he's got no reason to re-sign. if he walks, you're back at ground zero, and you've likely won too many games with your single weighty player asset in demarcus cousins that you aren't in a position to kick-start another rebuild with a shot at andrew wiggins. it's why i've been pounding the drum for the last year: re-sign evans, re-sign evans, re-sign evans...
he's a 23-year old guard with immense potential, and it's always easiest to retain your own talent when you're an undesirable small market franchise, either to develop from within, or to leverage at a later date (and yes, 4/$44 million for a young power guard not yet in his prime with career numbers of 18/5/5 is movable, whether the naysayers believe so or not). at absolute best, tyreke pans out and you don't need to move him at all. at absolute worst, you trade him for cap flexibility at a future date when a guy like monta ****ing ellis isn't your only recourse on the free agent market...
now the kings' front office likely has to beg and plead and overpay just to convince monta ellis to play for them, and that's not the kinda move you're looking to make when a culture change away from the toxicity of the previous era was your stated #1 goal. i've said it before and i'll say it again: you either overpay to keep tyreke evans, or you overpay to bring in somebody else. but even i didn't figure that Mr. Analytics was gonna get stuck trying to bring in the one guard that all analytics guys can agree is an absolute black hole and net negative for his team. amateurs...
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there are so many things wrong with this new direction, but amount of turnovers is not one of them.
Top 3 turnover guys are Harden, Holiday and Kobe, next one being Durant. Who would refuse any 3 of them to be on the same team?
Vasquez has exactly one thing going on for him, A/T ratio of close to 3 puts him in the category with Jrue, Rondo, Parker, Lawson... right behind Paul and Calderon.
Monta has ratio of 2, nothing special but far from awful.
Cus is bad at passing, but he is a center and not an option of not being on the team.
Top 3 turnover guys are Harden, Holiday and Kobe, next one being Durant. Who would refuse any 3 of them to be on the same team?
Vasquez has exactly one thing going on for him, A/T ratio of close to 3 puts him in the category with Jrue, Rondo, Parker, Lawson... right behind Paul and Calderon.
Monta has ratio of 2, nothing special but far from awful.
Cus is bad at passing, but he is a center and not an option of not being on the team.
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