Mo Bamba

[ESP47]

I disagree. Who are all these players? Talking 7ft tall+ enormous wingspan+athletic+rim protection+rebounding. It would be difficult just coming up with 10, let alone a ton: Davis, Gobert, Capela, Embiid, Dwight, Drummond?, McGee? Noel? and it flat-lines.
I have not seen anyone say that Bamba's floor is Gobert. I myself have not said that Bamba's floor is Gobert. However, Bamba is easily ahead of Gobert at 19yearsold.

Here's 20yearold Gobert's draft profile from DX about his weaknesses:

"On the downside, Gobert is a fairly limited player if unable to simply catch and finish around the basket. He doesn't show a very high skill-level with his back to the basket, not having the lower body strength needed to establish great position inside or a terribly diverse arsenal of footwork or post moves he can go to when his initial move is cut off. His lack of strength, balance and toughness makes it difficult for him to finish through contact in traffic, and he needs to continue to improve his left hand."

"Outside of the paint, Gobert hasn't shown any real semblance of a jump-shot at this stage, and didn't look to be on the verge of developing one from what we saw in the drills of the NBA Combine in Chicago. He's generally not a great passer or decision maker with the ball in his hands either...Gobert's lack of strength does affect him here too, though, as he gets moved around rather easily inside the paint, not always being able to hold his ground. He lacks some intensity and toughness on this end of the floor, sometimes allowing himself to get pushed around inside and not offering enough resistance.

"Just an average rebounder on the defensive end, Gobert shows solid timing boxing out his man, but tends to get pushed around and lets smaller opponents wrestle rebounds away from him. His 5.7 defensive rebounds per-40 is a fairly pedestrian rate and something he'll have to improve on to see minutes in the NBA."

"While Gobert is a little older than you might hope considering the stage of development he's currently at both physically and skill-wise, turning 21 the day before this year's NBA Draft, there's little doubt that he's a prospect with significant upside still. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Rudy-Gobert-5878/ ©DraftExpress"

Is it all that crazy to compare Bamba to Gobert? Not really. They're very similar prospects. If I compared his strengths at 20yearsold, they would go hand in hand with Bamba's strengths at 19yearsold. Remember, it took Gobert years of development in the NBA to get where he is now. I don't think anyone is suggesting Bamba could come into the NBA right now and become 2017 Gobert.

I don't have a problem at all with your comparison of the two guys but your original post said his floor was comparable to a player that sounds a lot like Rudy Gobert and I just didn't agree with that. Big men bust all the time and IMO they've sort of been given the NFL running back treatment where they don't get picked as high as they used to. I mean why would you when teams are finding adequate big men way outside of the lottery?

Gobert was a low floor, high ceiling guy and he happened to pan out. But him panning out has no bearing at all on Bamba panning out. I think Bamba has the highest chance of any recent player of becoming a Gobert like player but I just can't agree that his floor is going to be Gobert because that's a really high floor for any player.

The Gobert hyperbole around here will always baffle me. Good player, but far from special.
LeBron James is special. Steph Curry is special. Kevin Durant is special. Gobert is just a good player.

Have to agree. Gobert is a damn good player, but it's weird seeing his cult status on this forum. The idea that Bamba's ceiling is Gobert is laughable.

Did you guys at least pay attention to the Kings games against Utah? If you did, you would have been wide eyed at how Utah essentially has a goalie that barely ever allows people to score near him in the paint. If you're going to beat Utah, you better be able to shoot 3s at a high clip because you aren't beating them down low.

We're talking about a guy who is a perennial defensive player of the year candidate and you guys don't think he's special? I never said he was as good as Lebron, Curry or Durant but he is the best or one of the top 3 best defenders in the entire game. So yeah, I think that's special.

Dime Dropper, if Bamba's ceiling being one of the best defenders in the game is so laughable, why don't you give us your take then? You must have astronomical expectations for the kid. Saying his ceiling is Tim Duncan or Anthony Davis would be laughable. So lets hear it.

 

[hrdboild]

There just doesn’t seem to be an ability to have an actual conversation about Bamba. Supporters only see the next Gobert. The only comparison is to Gobert, because long arms. Why can’t he be the next Dedmon or McGee? We simply cannot countenance anything less than Gobert, apparently.

If we had the 11th pick and were debating between Bamba, Sexton, Knox, and maybe Zhaire Smith...sure, why not? But, we aren’t, and should get a better prospect where we pick. Bamba seems to be the benefactor of a phenemon we see often in sports, some organization gets lucky on a high production player from a low value draft slot due to a narrow set of circumstances, that player becomes an archetype, and poorly run organizations chase after the next iteration of that player with high value picks. Spending a top ten pick on the next Gobert is a fool’s errand—many of our current young guys would be gone by the time he even reached that potential, if he ever did, because Vlade/Joerger will have been fired while Bamba floundered and the next GM would sell off the Bogis, Buddys, and Foxes on the roster.

I don't think this is actually true though. I agree that Gobert is a lazy comparison. I don't agree that everybody is hyping him up because Gobert exists. Remove Gobert from the conversation and the reason to draft Bamba is exactly the same... he's an exceptionally huge human being who knows how to play basketball. I would argue that Dedmon is better than he gets credit for but he was as raw as it gets when he came to USC. He could only stay on the floor for about 5 minutes at a time because he was a foul magnet and still he's become a productive NBA player. JaVale McGee doesn't even appear to know where he is half the time so I don't think there's any danger of Bamba becoming the next JaVale.

The question I would ask you is why Bamba needs to be the next anybody. Not all that long ago almost every team had a big guy to defend the paint. It's so fundamental to the game of basketball that we shouldn't have to petition for the value of this type of player but since Golden State has caused everyone to lose their gd minds (because it's obviously sooo much easier to get three of the best shooters in history on your team...) its become necessary to point to the one team in the league that is still playing defense at an above average level and say "see, this is why you might want to draft this guy". Maybe Gobert isn't a top 10 player in the league, whatever that actually means. You could make a strong case though that his impact on his team-- The effect of having him on the floor or not on the floor.-- is easily top 10 in the league. We absolutely can have a conversation about Bamba's skill level, attitude, understanding of the game, and work ethic without resorting to Gobert comparisons but a decent number of people won't even get into that conversation because they're arguing that there's no point even drafting another big guy in a guard dominated league.

I would readily accept that, all things being equal, the talented guard is probably going to impact your team more than the talented big guy right now. That's why I have Doncic above Ayton on my wishlist. That doesn't mean we should just ignore the big men altogether. Jaren Jackson Jr. and Mo Bamba are two of the more intriguing defensive specialists to enter the league in awhile. Both are easily top 10 talents in any draft year. We're not picking #1, we're picking #7 and that means we might not get to fill our biggest need in the draft. Yes we need help on the wing badly. It would be rather dumb to allow this fact to force us into drafting a wing player no matter what. And if you don't think big guys matter in the league anymore, that is the reason we're talking about Rudy Gobert. Even in the age of peak three point offense he's the cornerstone of the best defensive squad in the league because his presence allows Utah to play better perimeter defense. If nothing else I say means anything to people I would hope they can at least understand why Gobert is a special player and how a traditional shot blocking enforcer actually makes you a better defensive team against the three even if they never roam more than 15 feet from the basket. It's the domino effect of what that allows you to do. You erase a third of the floor from the offense which makes it that much harder for them to create open uncontested jumpers.

 

[Dime Dropper]

Did you guys at least pay attention to the Kings games against Utah? If you did, you would have been wide eyed at how Utah essentially has a goalie that barely ever allows people to score near him in the paint. If you're going to beat Utah, you better be able to shoot 3s at a high clip because you aren't beating them down low.

This is not relevant to any point I made (maybe it's relevant to the other guy). I'm well aware how valuable Gobert is. I've probably been the biggest proponent of having a rim protector here over the last decade barring Brick.

We're talking about a guy who is a perennial defensive player of the year candidate and you guys don't think he's special? I never said he was as good as Lebron, Curry or Durant but he is the best or one of the top 3 best defenders in the entire game. So yeah, I think that's special.
Dime Dropper, if Bamba's ceiling being one of the best defenders in the game is so laughable, why don't you give us your take then? You must have astronomical expectations for the kid. Saying his ceiling is Tim Duncan or Anthony Davis would be laughable. So lets hear it.

Again, we're just arguing over the definition of special then. I'm a big fan of Gobert. Stating that it's unattainable for someone like Bamba to reach that level is simply not true. These guys have to come from somewhere and Bamba has an incredible physical profile and had a productive freshman season, even if he is raw and has some warts.

I'm also confused by this. I never said Gobert isn't special or a great player (I used the words "damn good"). I think you may have misinterpreted my post or maybe I didn't articulate myself well. I don't think it's laughable that his ceiling is being called one of the best defenders in the game. That's the kind of potential he has and why we should be considering him.

What do you think my position on him is? My point was that people saying he won't reach Gobert's level like it's completely unattainable, are wrong. It's very possible he becomes a better player than Gobert. Not necessarily likely, but I struggle to see how anyone doesn't recognise it as a possibility. He has a better physical profile than Rudy and more offensive skills at the same age. His defensive potential obviously isn't disputed by anyone. I also didn't bring up Gobert, I'm more than happy to talk about Bamba without the comparison. I was responding to a point made my someone else.

 

[kingsfan1984]

Outside of the wingspan similarity, id thik Bamba is closer to Capela than Gobert no?

 

[bajaden]

Say what? Bamba being a top 10 player in the NBA is insufficient?

No, I think he's saying that your wishful thinking is insufficient. I could say the same thing about several players in this coming draft, but it doesn't make it so.

 

[bajaden]

This Rudy Gobert discussion almost needs its own thread at this point. If we can't at least agree that he's the MVP of that Utah Jazz team, I don't know how we can have a discussion about the merits of drafting Bamba. It's not so much that Bamba resembles Rudy enough to warrant comparison-- it's just that he's the prototype for the kind of player Bamba could be. You're talking about a monster defensive presence that will force other teams to alter the way they play offense just because he's on the floor. Think about this: how many big men are so dominant in the paint that the rest of the team can leave them on an island while they switch picks and guard the three point line? Gobert might be it right now. Whiteside has sometimes been that for Miami. Embiid shows flashes. Anthony Davis was better early in his career, he seems to have regressed as a defender though now that he's a top 5 scorer. DeAndre Jordan at his peak was a major deterrent. Al Horford has the skillset but not the dominant size. Nerlens Noel has vanished. Joakim Noah is even worse. Robin Lopez is aging out of relevance faster than Isaiah Thomas. The defensive bigman is the new unicorn while stretch 4s and 5s have flooded the market.

For as much as we talk about three point shooting, the correlary to the super charged offense every team wants to run right now is that you can't be a good defensive team anymore unless you defend the three point line. Guards and wings helping off shooters is a thing of the past. You need 4 guys at or near the line disrupting passing lanes, fighting through screens, keeping their hands up, alway moving their feet, trying to sniff out and disrupt a million different offensive sets all designed to confuse defenders and create open threes. That leaves one guy in the middle to play "free safety" on any dribble action into the paint and gobble up the rebounds that your perimeter defenders are too far out of position to get to. That's a job maybe 5 players in the entire league can perform effectively right now. That's why we're seeing record offensive numbers, defense across the league is in major remission. Bamba has a chance to be among the rarest of the rare right now in NBA talent... the defensive anchor in the paint who allows you to stay aggressive on the perimeter. We can talk about how likely he is to get to that level, I have more to say about Bamba for some later time when I'm not working late nights and weekends... but I can't understand why the conversation is going in a direction that downplays the defensive big man in favor of more shooting. We have all kinds of shooting already and have ever since George Karl rolled through town. It hasn't done squat for us. What we don't have is a defensive anchor who controls the area around the basket. And without that we're always going to be vulnerable to any team who can put 4 shooters on the floor and move the ball efficiently.

Actually, there are some that would argue that Mitchell is the most valuable player on that Utah team, and that they wouldn't be where they are without him. Personally, I think it's more of a team thing. Remove either Mitchell, or Gobert, and they fall back a couple of spaces. So it's arguable as to who is the MVP of the team.

 

[ESP47]

This is not relevant to any point I made (maybe it's relevant to the other guy). I'm well aware how valuable Gobert is. I've probably been the biggest proponent of having a rim protector here over the last decade barring Brick.



Again, we're just arguing over the definition of special then. I'm a big fan of Gobert. Stating that it's unattainable for someone like Bamba to reach that level is simply not true. These guys have to come from somewhere and Bamba has an incredible physical profile and had a productive freshman season, even if he is raw and has some warts.

I'm also confused by this. I never said Gobert isn't special or a great player (I used the words "damn good"). I think you may have misinterpreted my post or maybe I didn't articulate myself well. I don't think it's laughable that his ceiling is being called one of the best defenders in the game. That's the kind of potential he has and why we should be considering him.

What do you think my position on him is? My point was that people saying he won't reach Gobert's level like it's completely unattainable, are wrong. It's very possible he becomes a better player than Gobert. Not necessarily likely, but I struggle to see how anyone doesn't recognise it as a possibility. He has a better physical profile than Rudy and more offensive skills at the same age. His defensive potential obviously isn't disputed by anyone. I also didn't bring up Gobert, I'm more than happy to talk about Bamba without the comparison. I was responding to a point made my someone else.

Sorry I must have misinterpreted your post then. I thought you were implying that his ceiling is something far beyond one of the best defenders in the game.

 

[bajaden]

Outside of the wingspan similarity, id thik Bamba is closer to Capela than Gobert no?

Neither Gobert or Bamba come close to being the athlete that Capela is. Bamba isn't that great an athlete. Have you ever seen him jump? I swear it appears that he doesn't get more than 18 inches off the floor. I've seen him come up short on two handed dunks standing right under the basket. I've seen him fumble beautiful passes right under the basket, or fumble away rebounds that he temporarily had. So I question how good his hands are. I've seen him miss slightly misplaced alley oops because he couldn't adjust in the air. He has decent, but not great lateral movement.

What he's good at is blocking shots in space. He's instinctive, and in a confined space, is quick to react. He also has a nose for the ball, and if he can improve his hands, if that's possible, he'll be a good rebounder. Away from the basket, he improved a lot from the beginning of the year, but he can be beat out there by quicker players. And to be fair, most big men don't relish being one on one with a PG. But I did see promise in his perimeter defense, but promise with limited expectations.

My advice is to stop with these comparisons with Gobert. I watched countless games with Bamba, and all my opinions are based on what I saw with my own eye's, not some stupid comparison of stats with another player. Stats are meaningless if you don't know how they were acquired. Every player is in a different situation with a different coach and in a different offensive and defensive scheme. It's like looking at Trae Young's shooting percentage for the last 15 games of the year and coming to the conclusion that he's a bad shooter. But if you had watched those games, and saw that the other teams defense was designed to totally stop Young from scoring, you'd have a different opinion.

It's my humble opinion that Bamba will never be a star in the NBA. But I do think that with time he'll be a solid to good NBA player. He has little to no offensive game, other than putbacks, alley oops and baskets from running the floor. His post game is horrible. Even defensively he'll have to learn how to defend the P&R better and not get snookered on close outs. But that's nothing unusual. Willie is still late on some of his close outs. Just know what your getting with Bamba, and don't have visions of grandeur.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

He's probably going to win Defensive Player of the Year this season. Is that not a special player?

Not at all.

Mark Eaton once won DPOY for the Jazz too. Was he a 'special' player? Or just a really big player that was adept at defending the paint?

It's a given that all players that make it to the NBA are really good. But some are just a little better than others. Some are a lot better than others. At this point in time, Gobert qualifies as a specialist. Very good defensive anchor, but average at best on the other end.

He's not an elite difference maker like KD, Steph, or LeBron. His presence alone doesn't lift a team to instant title contender. That's what defines a 'special' player.

 

[allrightythen]

I really like Bamba as a prospect, but I'm not sure he'd be a good pick for the Kings. I love his defensive ability and his offensive potential, but the knocks on him give me pause as a Kings fan. He seems to play passive at times and he does seem fairly raw. Neither of those things are huge red flags but it seems like we've had trouble with guys who fall into those categories so I'd be hesitant to pick him at 7. If he is the pick I won't be upset because I think the potential is clear and it's really high, I'm just a little gun shy with guys who need the amount of development that I think he'll need.

His potential seems really high to me though. He has the potential to be a solid offensive contributor in a variety of ways in addition to crazy defensive potential. I wouldn't be surprised if he went top 5 in this draft, I'd be surprised if he doesn't go in the top 8.

He's right there with Porter and Mikal Bridges for me.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Did you guys at least pay attention to the Kings games against Utah? If you did, you would have been wide eyed at how Utah essentially has a goalie that barely ever allows people to score near him in the paint.

If you're gonna judge players on how they perform against the Kings, 4/5 of the league is gonna look special to you.

If you're going to beat Utah, you better be able to shoot 3s at a high clip because you aren't beating them down low.

Fallacy. There are teams/players that can take advantage and score down low on Utah. Hell, I'm not convinced Gobert is much better than Steven Adams in the series they're playing right now. Pretty even matchup if you ask me. Steven Adams has often been able to muscle Gobert and his slight frame out of the lane when he wants to.

Shouldn't a special player be a lot better than Steven Adams?

We're talking about a guy who is a perennial defensive player of the year candidate and you guys don't think he's special? I never said he was as good as Lebron, Curry or Durant but he is the best or one of the top 3 best defenders in the entire game. So yeah, I think that's special.

Then you must believe that Mark Eaton was special too when he won DPOY and was the defensive anchor for the Jazz back in the 80's?

How about Sidney Moncrief, Alvin Robertson, Michael Cooper, Dikembe Mutombo, , Alonzo Mourning, Ron Artest, Marcus Camby, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Marc Gasol, and Joakim Noah? All of them won DPOY at least once too.

While most those players were perennial all-stars, they aren't ever mentioned in the same breath as Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, LeBron James, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell or any of the true special players of their generation.

You and I just differ on our definition of 'special'. There's no doubt that Rudy Gobert excels at what he does on the defensive end for the Jazz. But his presence alone doesn't elevate a team to title contender status.

Prior to this season, Utah could only go as far as Gordon Hayward would take them. Now it's Donovan Mitchell's team.

Gobert, Ingles, Favors, Rubio, and Crowder all have significant roles and are good players in their own right, but w/o a player of Hayward or Mitchell's caliber, they aren't anything more than a 1st round and out team.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

I really like Bamba as a prospect, but I'm not sure he'd be a good pick for the Kings. I love his defensive ability and his offensive potential, but the knocks on him give me pause as a Kings fan. He seems to play passive at times and he does seem fairly raw. Neither of those things are huge red flags but it seems like we've had trouble with guys who fall into those categories so I'd be hesitant to pick him at 7. If he is the pick I won't be upset because I think the potential is clear and it's really high, I'm just a little gun shy with guys who need the amount of development that I think he'll need.

His potential seems really high to me though. He has the potential to be a solid offensive contributor in a variety of ways in addition to crazy defensive potential. I wouldn't be surprised if he went top 5 in this draft, I'd be surprised if he doesn't go in the top 8.

I'm skeptical of Bamba too. He may be everything everyone says about him on the defensive end. But how much does that really help you -- especially when that player is average at best on the offensive end and opponents don't have to game plan for them defensively?

Since Gobert became part of this discussion, I'll use him as an example. If Rudy Gobert was added to the Kings roster tomorrow, would they be better? Of course. But would they immediately be a title contender? Nope. However, if LeBron James, KD, Steph Curry or probably even James Harden were added -- they arguably would be. Especially in the cases of LeBron and KD.

Point is, a defensive specialist with limited offensive ability doesn't elevate a team as much as many seem to believe. You still have to have an elite offensive talent that can take over games when it matters most. The Kings still wouldn't have that player even if Bamba was the next DPOY candidate.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Kings shouldn't take him if the situation calls for it. I'm just leery as to how much of a true difference maker he'll be even if he reaches full potential and might rather take a chance on a Porter Jr. who could develop into a KD type player or Mikal Bridges who could be a really good 2-way player similar to Kawhi Leonard

 

[SacTownKid]

I see a whole lot of underrating Bambas offensive potential in this thread. I'd go look at some highlights of him previous to him going to Texas. This is a big man with the potential to handle the rock, shoot from 3, and pass.

He's nothing like Gobert to me. I don't know what percentage I'd put on him reaching this level but his game is probably closer to Anthony Davis when you break it down from a unpolished talent perspective.

 

[hrdboild]

If you're gonna judge players on how they perform against the Kings, 4/5 of the league is gonna look special to you.



Fallacy. There are teams/players that can take advantage and score down low on Utah. Hell, I'm not convinced Gobert is much better than Steven Adams in the series they're playing right now. Pretty even matchup if you ask me. Steven Adams has often been able to muscle Gobert and his slight frame out of the lane when he wants to.

Shouldn't a special player be a lot better than Steven Adams?



Then you must believe that Mark Eaton was special too when he won DPOY and was the defensive anchor for the Jazz back in the 80's?

How about Sidney Moncrief, Alvin Robertson, Michael Cooper, Dikembe Mutombo, , Alonzo Mourning, Ron Artest, Marcus Camby, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Marc Gasol, and Joakim Noah? All of them won DPOY at least once too.

While most those players were perennial all-stars, they aren't ever mentioned in the same breath as Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, LeBron James, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell or any of the true special players of their generation.

You and I just differ on our definition of 'special'. There's no doubt that Rudy Gobert excels at what he does on the defensive end for the Jazz. But his presence alone doesn't elevate a team to title contender status.

Prior to this season, Utah could only go as far as Gordon Hayward would take them. Now it's Donovan Mitchell's team.

Gobert, Ingles, Favors, Rubio, and Crowder all have significant roles and are good players in their own right, but w/o a player of Hayward or Mitchell's caliber, they aren't anything more than a 1st round and out team.

I don't even know what you're arguing at this point. Are you saying we shouldn't draft Mo Bamba at #7 because he's not Michael Jordan or LeBron James? That seems like an impossible standard. Why draft anyone at all if that's your expectation? I'm just looking for a good player here. Someone who fits into what we're trying to do and makes the team better. Getting even a one time All Star at #7 would be ahead of the curve.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

I don't even know what you're arguing at this point. Are you saying we shouldn't draft Mo Bamba at #7 because he's not Michael Jordan or LeBron James? That seems like an impossible standard. Why draft anyone at all if that's your expectation? I'm just looking for a good player here. Someone who fits into what we're trying to do and makes the team better. Getting even a one time All Star at #7 would be ahead of the curve.

Well, the post you’ve quoted wasn’t even addressing Bamba. @ESP47 and I got off topic about Gobert. That entire post is related to that.

With regard to Bamba, I stated in my reply to @allrightythen that I share his trepidation about Bamba’s game. I’m not arguing anything about Bamba, just offering an opinion that I’m skeptical how much of an impact he’ll have. I also said I’m not against the Kings drafting him should the situation warrant it.

My mentioning LBJ, Jordan, etc was related to the Gobert/special player the topic. So, no, I’m not suggesting the Kings not draft Bamba or any other player because they aren’t akin to a player like that. Two different discussions going on here. Sorry for the confusion and deviating from the topic. My bad.

 

[hrdboild]

Not at all.

Mark Eaton once won DPOY for the Jazz too. Was he a 'special' player? Or just a really big player that was adept at defending the paint?

It's a given that all players that make it to the NBA are really good. But some are just a little better than others. Some are a lot better than others. At this point in time, Gobert qualifies as a specialist. Very good defensive anchor, but average at best on the other end.

He's not an elite difference maker like KD, Steph, or LeBron. His presence alone doesn't lift a team to instant title contender. That's what defines a 'special' player.

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. The player that gets voted as the best defensive player in the league isn't always a Hall of Famer but you can be damn sure they're making their team a lot better. Look at Utah's record with and without Gobert if you think he's just a good player. That team doesn't make the playoffs without him. This constant preference for scoring really gets under my skin. Isaiah Thomas was the leading scorer least season -- let's swap him with Gobert and see how far Utah goes. For that matter, let's take your example and put Steph Curry on the Jazz. Great now they have Mitchell and Curry giving them 50 points a game in the backcourt and they still lose 40+ games because they have nobody in the paint.

Guys like Steph get all the credit because they put up numbers but Golden State was nothing until they got Draymond and Bogut. They managed to replace Bogut with Zaza Pachulia and Kevin Durant without losing anything on the defensive end but let's see how much fun the splash brothers have playing without Green anchoring the defense. LeBron is a whole different story because he's also one of the best individual defenders in the league. Find me a guy like that and I'll willingly concede that he's much more valuable than a defensive specialist. But don't miss the forest for the trees here: teams win when they have elite difference makers on both ends of the floor.

Sidenote: Did KD's presence make OKC an instant title contender every year? What about AD in New Orleans? Or James Harden in Houston? Guys like that come along once in a generation. The odds of us finding that level of player are about as good as my odds of winning the lottery.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. The player that gets voted as the best defensive player in the league isn't always a Hall of Famer but you can be damn sure they're making their team a lot better. Look at Utah's record with and without Gobert if you think he's just a good player. That team doesn't make the playoffs without him.

Ridiculous to you.

I don’t deny that Gobert makes the Jazz better. But that doesn’t qualify him as what @ESP47 labeled as a special player.

There’s lots of 50 win playoff teams every single season. Those teams generally have a collection of good players. But not many of them are special. I already defined what a special player is to me. If you agree that any all star caliber player that is part of a 50 win team is special, then we just disagree on our definitions of what a special player is. That’s all.

To me, Rudy Gobert is a very good defensive anchor. Just like Mutombo, Mourning, Ben Wallace, Mark Eaton and countless others have been for their respective teams. But he’s nowhere close to a special player. If he was, his presence alone would vault Utah beyond where they’ve been the past several years.

If Utah competes for a championship, it’ll be more because of Donovan Mitchell than Gobert. W/o Mitchell, Utah wouldn’t have made the playoffs this season either. So it’s their collection of talent as a whole more than one single player.

But I am arguing that a player like Mitchell or Hayward (when they had him) is more valuable with regard to how far they can advance. Gobert isn’t enough of a 2 way player like say Anthony Davis is.

 

[hrdboild]

Actually, there are some that would argue that Mitchell is the most valuable player on that Utah team, and that they wouldn't be where they are without him. Personally, I think it's more of a team thing. Remove either Mitchell, or Gobert, and they fall back a couple of spaces. So it's arguable as to who is the MVP of the team.

Oh I know there's some that would argue that but those folks are clearly wrong. Mitchell is a scorer. Every team needs a guy who can create shots and Utah struggled for years because they didn't have that guy. But last season Gordon Hayward developed from a good scorer into a great one and they won 51 games. This season they lost Hayward and added Mitchell and won 48 games. Almost no difference. Mitchell is important because they lost Hayward but he's not the reason for their success.

Now let's look at the other end of the court. Gobert barely played in his rookie season and the team ranked 29th in defensive rating. Since then they've ranked 14th, 7th, 3rd, and now 2nd. Over that same period they've ranked 12-17th every year in offensive rating. That's the difference between a team that won 25 games and a team that won 50-- it's almost entirely on the defensive end. Take Gobert off the Jazz and they're exactly where we are. We have guards who can score too. We don't have anyone even in the same ballpark as Gobert on the other end.

Now I will admit that I don't care all that much about offense. There are 450 players in the NBA on an active roster at any given time and 90% of them can get you baskets. There's a lot of nuance involved in breaking down a defense and using all 5 players to create high percentage shots but none of that matters if you've got the worst defense in the league like we have for most of the last decade. So while I recognize the potential in a guy like Trae Young -- he could be a Hall of Fame PG for somebody-- I'm also a little unusual as a fan in that my favorite players are rarely Hall of Famers. I like guys who contribute to winning even if those contributions are underappreciated. I'm convinced that an elite defensive unit will still manage to score enough points to win even without any elite scorers. Of course I'll never get to see that because I can count on both hands the number of players in the league who would actually qualify as elite defenders anymore. Very few players are even trying and why would they if knocking down threes is going to net you $30 million a year? I would be practicing my jumper too even if I were a 7 foot tower of solid muscle and attitude given the circumstances. It's a sad state of affairs but I'm not going to let people get away with saying defense isn't as important as offense. Not when 9 of the top 10 defenses in the league made the playoffs this year. I've still got Trae Young high on my draft board because we're not picking first and we need help all over the floor. But this whole notion that defensive role-players are somehow beneath us because we need stars comes up almost every year around the draft and it drives me nuts. How about we try winning some damn games for a change! A defense that ranks even league average next year would tack on 10 wins to our record easily which puts us within range of a playoff spot. No, simply adding Bamba or Jackson alone won't do that for us next year as they're both going to need to get stronger and learn how to defend in the NBA first but look at what Gobert did for the Jazz over the last 5 years. That's a pattern I would love to repeat!

 

[sactowndog]

One key factor non of us know (but the Kings FO does) is how good is Giles and what’s Giles game. If he truly is every bit as good as Chris Weber and doesn’t have an outside shot then Bamba and WCS may not be a great fit.

 

[hrdboild]

Ridiculous to you.

I don’t deny that Gobert makes the Jazz better. But that doesn’t qualify him as what @ESP47 labeled as a special player.

There’s lots of 50 win playoff teams every single season. Those teams generally have a collection of good players. But not many of them are special. I already defined what a special player is to me. If you agree that any all star caliber player that is part of a 50 win team is special, then we just disagree on our definitions of what a special player is. That’s all.

To me, Rudy Gobert is a very good defensive anchor. Just like Mutombo, Mourning, Ben Wallace, Mark Eaton and countless others have been for their respective teams. But he’s nowhere close to a special player. If he was, his presence alone would vault Utah beyond where they’ve been the past several years.

If Utah competes for a championship, it’ll be more because of Donovan Mitchell than Gobert. W/o Mitchell, Utah wouldn’t have made the playoffs this season either. So it’s their collection of talent as a whole more than one single player.

But I am arguing that a player like Mitchell or Hayward (when they had him) is more valuable with regard to how far they can advance. Gobert isn’t enough of a 2 way player like say Anthony Davis is.

I know what you're arguing and its so absurd to me that I don't see the point trying to argue it further. You've name-checked a decent sampling of the best defenders in league history and said they had decent careers but they're not special. Ben Wallace, Ron Artest, Alonzo Mourning... I'll take any of these guys in their prime over every single player in the league right now except Lebron James. In a second! No hesitation. One guy you didn't mention but he helps to illustrate the point.. I'd love to see Steph Curry try to match up with mid-career Gary Payton. The glove would eat him for breakfast. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[bajaden]

Oh I know there's some that would argue that but those folks are clearly wrong. Mitchell is a scorer. Every team needs a guy who can create shots and Utah struggled for years because they didn't have that guy. But last season Gordon Hayward developed from a good scorer into a great one and they won 51 games. This season they lost Hayward and added Mitchell and won 48 games. Almost no difference. Mitchell is important because they lost Hayward but he's not the reason for their success.

Now let's look at the other end of the court. Gobert barely played in his rookie season and the team ranked 29th in defensive rating. Since then they've ranked 14th, 7th, 3rd, and now 2nd. Over that same period they've ranked 12-17th every year in offensive rating. That's the difference between a team that won 25 games and a team that won 50-- it's almost entirely on the defensive end. Take Gobert off the Jazz and they're exactly where we are. We have guards who can score too. We don't have anyone even in the same ballpark as Gobert on the other end.

Now I will admit that I don't care all that much about offense. There are 450 players in the NBA on an active roster at any given time and 90% of them can get you baskets. There's a lot of nuance involved in breaking down a defense and using all 5 players to create high percentage shots but none of that matters if you've got the worst defense in the league like we have for most of the last decade. So while I recognize the potential in a guy like Trae Young -- he could be a Hall of Fame PG for somebody-- I'm also a little unusual as a fan in that my favorite players are rarely Hall of Famers. I like guys who contribute to winning even if those contributions are underappreciated. I'm convinced that an elite defensive unit will still manage to score enough points to win even without any elite scorers. Of course I'll never get to see that because I can count on both hands the number of players in the league who would actually qualify as elite defenders anymore. Very few players are even trying and why would they if knocking down threes is going to net you $30 million a year? I would be practicing my jumper too even if I were a 7 foot tower of solid muscle and attitude given the circumstances. It's a sad state of affairs but I'm not going to let people get away with saying defense isn't as important as offense. Not when 9 of the top 10 defenses in the league made the playoffs this year. I've still got Trae Young high on my draft board because we're not picking first and we need help all over the floor. But this whole notion that defensive role-players are somehow beneath us because we need stars comes up almost every year around the draft and it drives me nuts. How about we try winning some damn games for a change! A defense that ranks even league average next year would tack on 10 wins to our record easily which puts us within range of a playoff spot. No Bamba or Jackson don't do that for us next year, they're both going to need to get stronger and learn how to defend in the NBA first but look at what Gobert did for the Jazz over the last 5 years. That's a pattern I would love to repeat!

Your missing my point, and in a ironic way, making my point. You said it yourself, they won 51 with Hayward, lost him, and then still won almost 50 games with Mitchell. So I could argue that Hayward the previous year was just as important a player as Gobert, and then Mitchell filled that spot the following year. So take Gobert off the team and they probably don't make the playoffs. But take Mitchell off the team, and the also don't make the playoffs. Both players are equally important, just in different ways.

Your saying that the defense Gobert brings is more important than the offense Mitchell brings. I disagree completely. Both are equally important. When people discuss the Warriors, they generally talk about what a great offensive team they are. But what gets lost in the conversation is that they're also a great defensive team. Take either one of those away, and they lose. Gobert is a unicorn of sorts. A very unique player who actually plays better than he appears to play at times. He's not a graceful fluid athlete, which makes him look a little mechanical at times. But he's a better athlete than he appears. Appearances can be deceptive. Results aren't!

 

[hrdboild]

Your missing my point, and in a ironic way, making my point. You said it yourself, they won 51 with Hayward, lost him, and then still won almost 50 games with Mitchell. So I could argue that Hayward the previous year was just as important a player as Gobert, and then Mitchell filled that spot the following year. So take Gobert off the team and they probably don't make the playoffs. But take Mitchell off the team, and the also don't make the playoffs. Both players are equally important, just in different ways.

Your saying that the defense Gobert brings is more important than the offense Mitchell brings. I disagree completely. Both are equally important. When people discuss the Warriors, they generally talk about what a great offensive team they are. But what gets lost in the conversation is that they're also a great defensive team. Take either one of those away, and they lose. Gobert is a unicorn of sorts. A very unique player who actually plays better than he appears to play at times. He's not a graceful fluid athlete, which makes him look a little mechanical at times. But he's a better athlete than he appears. Appearances can be deceptive. Results aren't!

I think we mostly agree on this one. Both players are important to that team. Just like Draymond and Steph are both important to Golden State. I wouldn't disagree if you wanted to say that they're equally valuable. It's the "Mitchell scores more points so he's clearly the best player on the team" type of people that I don't get along with. I would argue that a player like Gobert is harder to replace right now, but that's just circumstantial. Fifteen years ago it would have been the opposite.

I would also argue that I would prefer the elite defender 10 times out of 10.. actually that's not an argument it's just a statement of fact. Why? In the time that I've been watching basketball I've seen a lot of teams that excel on one end or the other and when it comes down to do or die crunch time I trust the middling offenses to draw up a last second scoring play to win or tie more than I trust the bad defenses to get a key stop. That's where it starts and ends for me... prove you can defend first and then we'll talk about offense. If you can't defend I don't care what else you can do. The meritocracy in the league has generally been the opposite but I'm not all that interested in All Star rosters or highlight reels or who sells the most jerseys or shoes, I'm just interested in players competing to see who will come out on top.

 

[Joshoua]

Are you guys watching the playoffs 6’6-6’9 guys that can shoot and play defense are as important as it gets. Especially considering we have WCS who can guard on the perimeter and pick and roll which is more important than block shots now a days.

 

[dude12]

Are you guys watching the playoffs 6’6-6’9 guys that can shoot and play defense are as important as it gets. Especially considering we have WCS who can guard on the perimeter and pick and roll which is more important than block shots now a days.

You said Mikal Bridges?

 

[Joshoua]

You said Mikal Bridges?

Ya I’m saying Mikal over Bamba

 

[ESP47]

If you're gonna judge players on how they perform against the Kings, 4/5 of the league is gonna look special to you.



Fallacy. There are teams/players that can take advantage and score down low on Utah. Hell, I'm not convinced Gobert is much better than Steven Adams in the series they're playing right now. Pretty even matchup if you ask me. Steven Adams has often been able to muscle Gobert and his slight frame out of the lane when he wants to.

Shouldn't a special player be a lot better than Steven Adams?



Then you must believe that Mark Eaton was special too when he won DPOY and was the defensive anchor for the Jazz back in the 80's?

How about Sidney Moncrief, Alvin Robertson, Michael Cooper, Dikembe Mutombo, , Alonzo Mourning, Ron Artest, Marcus Camby, Dwight Howard, Tyson Chandler, Marc Gasol, and Joakim Noah? All of them won DPOY at least once too.

While most those players were perennial all-stars, they aren't ever mentioned in the same breath as Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, LeBron James, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell or any of the true special players of their generation.

You and I just differ on our definition of 'special'. There's no doubt that Rudy Gobert excels at what he does on the defensive end for the Jazz. But his presence alone doesn't elevate a team to title contender status.

Prior to this season, Utah could only go as far as Gordon Hayward would take them. Now it's Donovan Mitchell's team.

Gobert, Ingles, Favors, Rubio, and Crowder all have significant roles and are good players in their own right, but w/o a player of Hayward or Mitchell's caliber, they aren't anything more than a 1st round and out team.

Come on bud if we're going to argue, lets argue over something more interesting than how we define the word special. You say potato, I say patato, but in the end all the matters is how effective the player is on the court. I don't think Gobert is as good as any of those top players you mentioned but that's not what the discussion is about. Gobert will never carry a team but Gobert's defense is the difference in Utah being the 9th seed and now more than likely making it into the 2nd round of the playoffs.

I'm just defining special as rare. Like Gobert's wingspan is the longest in the NBA, I think that's special because without that wingspan, he's just another run of the mill solid big guy. With that wingspan, he's the best goalie in the NBA. I don't even want to draft Bamba but players with his measurements don't come along all that often so he has a chance to be a really effective player. Will never carry the team but you team him up with a guy who can carry the offense and you might have something special.

 

[ESP47]

Are you guys watching the playoffs 6’6-6’9 guys that can shoot and play defense are as important as it gets. Especially considering we have WCS who can guard on the perimeter and pick and roll which is more important than block shots now a days.

They're important but they are much easier to find than players that have the potential skills as some of the guys in this lottery. They also rely on their #1 guys like Harden to make them look good. If the guys with #1 potential in this draft get picked and we wind up with Mikal, I won't be mad about it but it would be a shame to pass up a possible franchise changer for a good role player.

 

[Joshoua]

They're important but they are much easier to find than players that have the potential skills as some of the guys in this lottery. They also rely on their #1 guys like Harden to make them look good. If the guys with #1 potential in this draft get picked and we wind up with Mikal, I won't be mad about it but it would be a shame to pass up a possible franchise changer for a good role player.

Ya unfortunately you’re right

 

[bajaden]

I see a whole lot of underrating Bambas offensive potential in this thread. I'd go look at some highlights of him previous to him going to Texas. This is a big man with the potential to handle the rock, shoot from 3, and pass.

He's nothing like Gobert to me. I don't know what percentage I'd put on him reaching this level but his game is probably closer to Anthony Davis when you break it down from a unpolished talent perspective.

Why would I want to look at highlights of him before he went to Texas, when I saw him play 20 plus times at Texas. If you think he's anywhere near what Anthony Davis is, your out of your freaking mind. Anthony Davis is a freak athlete. Bamba isn't! I was blown away by AD at Kentucky, and predicted that he would become one the best centers in the NBA. I'm the same person watching Bamba, and I'm not seeing that. He doesn't have near the handles that AD had at Kentucky, and for a guy that supposed to be a good shooter, why did he shoot 27% from the three. Bagley, whose not supposed to be a good shooter shot 38% from the three.

Look, I'm not against drafting Bamba, but I want to be realistic about what to expect from him. People are disappointed in Willie, not because of what he is, but because of their expectations of what kind of player they want him to be. You build up this player, we draft him, and expectations will again be unrealistic. Right now he's all potential. When I see a 6'7" 230 pound player push Bamba around under the basket, what the hell do you think a Cousins, or Gasol is going to do. Randolph would go through him like butter.

Don't know if you saw the Texas/Duke game, but it was one the match-ups I was looking forward to. Bagley and Carter up against Bamba. Bagley had 34 points and 15 boards. Carter had 14 points and 11 boards. Bamba had 9 points and 10 boards. Now it wasn't a terrible game for Bamba. he boarded OK, and had a couple of blocks. But the difference in athleticism between him and Bagley was undeniable. Bagley has Anthony Davis athleticism. If you want to compare games, its Bagley's game that compares with AD's at Kentucky. And AD was better.

 

[bajaden]

I think we mostly agree on this one. Both players are important to that team. Just like Draymond and Steph are both important to Golden State. I wouldn't disagree if you wanted to say that they're equally valuable. It's the "Mitchell scores more points so he's clearly the best player on the team" type of people that I don't get along with. I would argue that a player like Gobert is harder to replace right now, but that's just circumstantial. Fifteen years ago it would have been the opposite.

I would also argue that I would prefer the elite defender 10 times out of 10.. actually that's not an argument it's just a statement of fact. Why? In the time that I've been watching basketball I've seen a lot of teams that excel on one end or the other and when it comes down to do or die crunch time I trust the middling offenses to draw up a last second scoring play to win or tie more than I trust the bad defenses to get a key stop. That's where it starts and ends for me... prove you can defend first and then we'll talk about offense. If you can't defend I don't care what else you can do. The meritocracy in the league has generally been the opposite but I'm not all that interested in All Star rosters or highlight reels or who sells the most jerseys or shoes, I'm just interested in players competing to see who will come out on top.

Well then obviously you agree with me that Mikal Bridges is a nice compromise. He can score, and he's a hell of a defender... Maybe not......