Lets talk Isaiah Thomas..
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
EVERYBODY's points goes up when IT starts...on both sides of the ball.
That's what junkball does. Accelerates the pace, scrambles the game, makes everything open court or broken play so you can put up numbers, so they can they, and you lose control of your defense and the game.
That has its place BTW. But we quite literally may have the single most destructive interior force in the game right now in DeMarcus Cousins. Throughout NBA history teams with that player have always used him to control pace and temp, to beat the crap out of the other team and take their legs from them. Its like a punishing running game in football, or a body snatching boxer who thuds his opponent in the kidneys for 5 rounds and then can just knock him over with a feather once the legs are gone. And then we pair that with a little scatback quarterback who is too short to see over the big guys if he stays in the pocket and wants to go 4 wide and roll out every play to create scramble plays with his legs. With a flashy bantamweight boxer wearing animal print trunks who likes to do the Ali shuffle and stick and move stick and move while remaining elusive as air. That's oil and water. Now can you ask your little scrambling QB to stand in there in the pocket, to take the big hits, try to make conventional plays with a 5 step drop, but that's not playing to his strengths. That's not getting full value out of him, nor doing justice to your beast inside. That's why the talk of getting IT back to 6th man, where he can bring his own little change of pace world with him after Boogie and the starters beat them up and take their legs.
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LPKingsFan
All-Star
I'm not sure pace, by and of itself, correlates to either winning or losing. Looks like there's very little correlation to me: http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/paceFactor
Chubbs
Starter
Hopefully without adding fuel to the fire, I think it needs to be noted that he has no desire to be a backup pg. So while many agree he's best suited for that, he absolutely does not think so. He doesn't want to be Nate Robinson. He wants to be Allen iverson. He wants to play 40 minutes a night and be the man.
That's no small thing. He's been given the keys to the kingdom the last two seasons.
In his own words during the preseason:
“Hopefully the position will be up for competition,” Thomas told HOOPSWORLD in a phone interview. “If it is, I’m going to be battling each and every practice, each and every workout, whatever. At the end of the day, we are teammates – myself, Greivis Vasquez, Ray McCallum and Jimmer Fredette – we’re teammates, but at the same time we’re competing too. At the end of the day, this a competition and I am going for that starting spot because I do feel like I’m a starting point guard in this league. I think the competition is going to make each of us better and make sure we’re competing every day in practice. We’re going to work hard.”
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....ard-spot-in-sacramento-is-up-for-competition/
And
"SLAM: Sixtieth pick in the Draft to starting point guard. What do you want your legacy as a basketball player to be? How do you want people to remember you?
IT: I want to be the best little guy to ever play.
SLAM: So you’re coming after AI?
IT: [Smiles] Yup. That’s my goal."
http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2013/12/qa-isaiah-thomas-2/
Tongue in cheek? Maybe, maybe not.
Whatever we all think, what he thinks is that he can be the best little guy ever. That means a starter. I think that will play largely into whether we resign him or not, whether the front office agrees. This is his tryout. We can argue whether what he thinks matters, but I don't get the impression he'll sign with us to be a backup, or anyone else for that matter. The days of him accepting being a backup for this team seem to be over, cause his goal is not be 6th man of the year.
At some point, players need to stop competing against each other and start competing with each other, or we are going to see the same old losing team we've seen the last however many years.
The problem right now is he is playing like he's the #2 to cousins.
It's starter or walk/trade. The idea that he'll gladly return to the bench isn't one I agree with. And do we have any indication what management is thinking? Did they clear room so pizza guy can start like some believe?
That's no small thing. He's been given the keys to the kingdom the last two seasons.
In his own words during the preseason:
“Hopefully the position will be up for competition,” Thomas told HOOPSWORLD in a phone interview. “If it is, I’m going to be battling each and every practice, each and every workout, whatever. At the end of the day, we are teammates – myself, Greivis Vasquez, Ray McCallum and Jimmer Fredette – we’re teammates, but at the same time we’re competing too. At the end of the day, this a competition and I am going for that starting spot because I do feel like I’m a starting point guard in this league. I think the competition is going to make each of us better and make sure we’re competing every day in practice. We’re going to work hard.”
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....ard-spot-in-sacramento-is-up-for-competition/
And
"SLAM: Sixtieth pick in the Draft to starting point guard. What do you want your legacy as a basketball player to be? How do you want people to remember you?
IT: I want to be the best little guy to ever play.
SLAM: So you’re coming after AI?
IT: [Smiles] Yup. That’s my goal."
http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2013/12/qa-isaiah-thomas-2/
Tongue in cheek? Maybe, maybe not.
Whatever we all think, what he thinks is that he can be the best little guy ever. That means a starter. I think that will play largely into whether we resign him or not, whether the front office agrees. This is his tryout. We can argue whether what he thinks matters, but I don't get the impression he'll sign with us to be a backup, or anyone else for that matter. The days of him accepting being a backup for this team seem to be over, cause his goal is not be 6th man of the year.
At some point, players need to stop competing against each other and start competing with each other, or we are going to see the same old losing team we've seen the last however many years.
The problem right now is he is playing like he's the #2 to cousins.
It's starter or walk/trade. The idea that he'll gladly return to the bench isn't one I agree with. And do we have any indication what management is thinking? Did they clear room so pizza guy can start like some believe?
That's the big question, and the one none of us can answer.
Chubbs
Starter
And ultimately the only answer that matters.
It's not even clear in the dragic rumors if we are looking for dragic to be the starter or the backup.
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
its about learning to play together better, learning Malones defense and starting to take pride in defense, developing McLemore and letting Cuz continue to grow. nothing else matters especially our record. the roster will be a lot different come next season.
You so totally ignored his question.
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
Obviously you still go to the games. Continue to support the team. why would you not? all i said was it's pointless to argue about the current PG situation because it wont be like this for long!
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Isaiah Thomas tossed his headband to the Little Princesses right after the game. Say what you want - he made the night incredibly special for my two favorite girls.
Well, he could have washed it first!
It's times like this that actually make me glad I don't live in Sacramento. If I were an STH, and someone tried to feed me this line, I would strangle them, with my bare hands, until the cops came.
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
What does being a STH and going to the games have to do with understanding that this team will make changes and not go into the future with an Isaiah Thomas/Jimmer Fredette PG situation?
it seems to me that you deeply misunderstood my comment
It seems to me that people who spend their real money in the present are probably less than receptive to people trying to tell them that everything is going to be alright in the future. It also seems to me that, if I were actually playing on the team in the present, I'd find the notion of someone suggesting that I not worry about trying to win now to be... less than credible.
So, when Person A asks the questions, "And what do I do with my remaining tickets for the season? How would you explain your position to the team in a meeting tomorrow?", and Person B answers, "its about learning to play together better, learning Malones defense and starting to take pride in defense, developing McLemore and letting Cuz continue to grow. nothing else matters especially our record. the roster will be a lot different come next season.", a total blowoff seems like the most generous interpretation of that response. And I'm not personally disposed to giving people that much benefit of the doubt.
So, when Person A asks the questions, "And what do I do with my remaining tickets for the season? How would you explain your position to the team in a meeting tomorrow?", and Person B answers, "its about learning to play together better, learning Malones defense and starting to take pride in defense, developing McLemore and letting Cuz continue to grow. nothing else matters especially our record. the roster will be a lot different come next season.", a total blowoff seems like the most generous interpretation of that response. And I'm not personally disposed to giving people that much benefit of the doubt.
It's not hard to understand, it is hard to understand dealing with it in the way you explain or don't. Understand? I don't.
Every game is important and should be played like there is no next year. Every trade is important, every substitution is important, every practice moment for the coach and the team is important.
Would you come in and explain to IT that he is not going to be here next year and how he is to approach these next 55 games. Right now there is no next year, we have practice at two o'clock. Sorry if I have gone on too long.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
This is also a problem with a deliberate tank, as if this isn't one. What do you tell the STH? As much as people would like to think the average STH understands what a tank is and what the eventual good will come of it, the day in, day out suffering of going to a game that was destined to failure is painful. I went through a decade of losing like that and simply gave up. I never would be a STH again. Why pay money to watch an incompetent team lose?
How DO you explain that to the STH and maybe even to the league?
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
This went way too far guys. all i tried to say was that we shouldn't argue or even worry about the PG situation because we all know Pete D and the rest of the crew know that its a weakness and will address it. now all of a sudden we are talking about all kinds of off topic stuff
In what sense is being worried about the Sacramento Kings' point guard situation, in the here and now, off topic? Off whose topic?
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
it's not. when I said off topic i meant all the non PG related talk. such as STH and what not.
your really reaching trying to find something in each post to criticize or argue about lol
I didn't reach; that was what you said. It isn't my fault that you weren't clear about what you meant.
I will still and always vehemently object to the idea that this team is tanking. And I will also vehemently disagree that it would be good at this point for the Kings to tank because of some hypothetical "eventual good."
Ask Portland about the eventual good of tanking for Greg Oden.
I honestly think people are too quick to judge our new ownership, our new front office, our new coach and our new players. My advice to all is give them a chance. We have, thankfully, a lot of good folks who have been willing to shell out their hard-earned cash as STH to show their support. I seriously doubt if anyone spending money to attend a game is thinking, "Hey, I'm gonna spend close to $300 for a couple of tickets, some beer and a bag of peanuts for a Kings game. I know they won't win but we can sure watch them plan for the future by losing."
I was at opening night and I was at the New Orleans game. I can honestly say I did not hear even one person in attendance mention "tanking". I guess this is just an area where I will disagree with some posters, but it makes no sense whatsoever for the front office to tank at this point in time. They gain nothing and risk losing the support of the fans who have just started to return.
Congratulations.
Sooner or later everyone goes through the same thing - creating what you thought was an innocuous post only to find it morph into something totally and completely different. You can no more stop it than you could stop an avalanche with a spatula.
I'll give you some hard-earned advice. At this point, you're best off to just fade away... you're not gonna salvage this one.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
The idea of tanking would never cross the mind of a STH. In fact, I think most STHs would be infuriated if they thought they were shelling out thousands of bucks simply to watch a team lose and in fact even be expected to think that is OK. It is not OK for the people who pay money. I got disgusted and tried periodically to bring up the idea on this forum that losing was no fun for a STH only to be slapped down by some mods who thought I was ignorant of the good of a tank. Screw the people who pay money for the greater good, I suppose. Now I've been converted and get slapped down by the other side of the issue. Both sides cannot be correct no matter how vigorous the argument.
I and my family sat through a decade or so of constant losing as our team set a major league record of numbers of years without even hitting .500. At least there was the novelty of a major league team. Otherwise I think the word "tanking" has taken on a toxic quality on this forum and if we can't discuss the possibility that this is happening, we will have joined the ostrich in burying its head in the sand. This team has pieces in place for success a few years from now. The latest trade that left us with one competent guard out of the 4 that are necessary left us with little chance of having a winning record this year and perhaps even improving our record. There are many ways of interpreting the FACT that we have no guards except for IT who, in many people's eyes, isn't all that hot either.
I think the team has made all the correct moves to have a very good team by 2015. Part of that is to do well in the upcoming draft and, as we all should know by now, the draft is the only way this team has improved itself in the recent past. FAs don't come here. Trades are a wash and are meant to be such. At the best the two or more teams make a small improvement by taking on the extraneous part of another team to fill a hole.
So how is this team going to improve? Are we to shut up and leave it to the FO? If so, what's the point of the forum?
There are a lot of people who think this year is a good year to lose. You are not one of these and as a mod you can shut down such talk. The idea will not go away no matter what you say. You can be as vehement as you wish but it doesn't mean you are correct. I think the next draft is more than hypothetically good and can hardly believe anyone could not see that unless they are not looking.
I have NOT used moderating powers to shut down any such talk. I am also allowed to post as a fan, as you well know.
That comment wasn't fair, Glenn, and I'm actually a little hurt you even said it.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
That argument, however, is just so completely wrong it grates. Ask OKC how tanking worked for them in getting Durant that year. Or Boston how it worked when they were able to trade their pick for Ray Allen, thus setting up the Kevin Garnett trade. Tanking is GREAT. The very best thing you can ever do for your franchise at a certain point in time. It builds dynasties. It gets you Hakeem,and Shaq and Duncan and Lebron. It got us Reke and Cuz. Its great. Its smart. Its just what has to be done.
However, we are no longer at that point in our development. We DID tank. We DID get our star through tanking. Yay tanking! But we already have him, we have a perennial near All Star next to him. And no that is not a reference to anybody 5'9". New coach trying to change culture, emerging star, new arena on the horizon, we just aren't at that tanking spot anymore. Tensions are already high on the team because once again we aren't tanking, we are failing to win. There is a difference. These losses aren't going down easy for anybody except a few fans. These losses are destructive. If there are 10 game to go in the season? Sure, let's tank it out and go get that pick. When there are 55 games left in the season,,no way. It will destroy our morale, damage our relationship with Cuz, ruin whatever culture change the increasingly antagonized coach is aiming for, empty the building back out at a time when enthusiasm should be building, if STOP can get an arena vote on the ballot, damage the hopes of even winning the vote. This is no longer the time nor place for tanking.
Hadlowe
Starter
I see the talk about tanking as a moot point. The team doesn't have to tank. They can lose just fine without interference from the coaching staff or front office. We're not hiding a Paul Pierce behind Ryan Gomes to lose close games here. Cousins, Gay and Thomas are your three best players and are playing big minutes. After that, the roleplayers tend to all play the same role, and that role involves little to no defense. As unpleasant as it may be, you're probably seeing these athletes perform at the peak of their abilities. The team just isn't as good as 25 other teams right now.
The way I see it, tanking is a silver lining for bad teams, the draft being the consolation bracket in basketball.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Let me be clear as to what I meant. I did not mean that you could delete posts and close threads to effect this discussion although I can see that's the way it appeared. I will apologize for that as I see how it came across. That was not my intent and you can chose to believe me or not. However, as a mod, you are not just a fan. What you write has more of an impact than that of us people who have only one role.
Two reasons I made that comment: One was the sight of seeing Greg Oden sitting dejectedly on the bench at the Lakers game, along with a screen crawl that mentioned he hadn't played in a game since 2009. The other was that while tanking can be beneficial, it can also blow up in your face.
I do agree with the rest of your comment.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I know you think this team is set up to win. We'll see. I don't think either of us can predict with any certainty what will be the result of this season. I, personally, am confidant that as long as we don't lose our draft pick in its entirety, we will do fine.
I'm sorry but if you think the Kings should lose even one game then in my eyes you are not a Kings fan. You can talk about it after tha fact, that that loss helps you get a higher draft pick but it better be idle conjecture.
Do you or anyone on here really think that the owner, the F
O, the coach, the players or any one player is tanking you are out of your friggin' mind. Just how would any of them go about it? How do they explain to each other? How do they explain to the NBA? I'm sure it's cool and great good fun to yak about but ........ really? Come on, the only tankers aren here or other blogs like it so don't take up space here trying to make a serious issue of it.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
You don't count me as a Kings fan! Really?? You know better than that. Now THIS is insulting.
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