Kobe
- Thread starter Bricklayer
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vladetomiller
Bench
LOL, but then comfortably some guys say that Lamar Odom and Walton are all stars.
Perspective my friend, all my responses in this thread are sarcastic responses to Bmiller who keeps saying that this laker team is talented and its kobe's fault that they dont go anywhere.
vladetomiller
Bench
LOL, where did that come from. You started all this by saying this is not anything to be wowed about.
I can continue to go down your ridiculous arguments with sarcasm by saying "Robert horry has same number of rings and more playoff success than MJ"
But since many dont understand that sarcasm and I dont seem to be getting any better at it, lets leave it at your arguments dont hold good. You escape to another topic forgetting what your initial post was. If you have the guts in you, prove to me logically (the way you expected others to prove that Kobe is a good player ) that MJ is better than Scottie in terms of playoff success. Dont show the MVP thing, Steve Nash has two and do you mean to say nash is better than Stockton.
If you do then you its going to come and bite you, Nash who hasnt ever been to the finals, you know how it goes, how can the two time mvp never take his team to the finals at least.
So you know I can throw data at you all over the place, just like the way you do.
By the way go and read the posts when did anyone in this thread claim that Kobe is greated than MJ.
Odom and Walton are not, in fact, all-stars. Odom, however, is still better than probably eighty percent of the players that Jordan played with in Chicago, and EVERY player that he ever played with in Washington. I'd take Odom over Hamilton, Stackhouse or Hughes. Hell, I'd take Odom over any TWO of those guys.
Second to whom? Because I can think of at least three guys off the top of my head that I'd rate ahead of Kobe Bryant.*
Personally, I'm not a hundred percent convinced that Bryant is the second-best guard to ever play for the Lakers; that West cat was pretty good, too.
* Let that statement not be misconstrued to think that I don't believe that Bryant is an exceptional player, and one of the best ever... but second-best guard to EVER play? At "worst?" I'm not buying that.
vladetomiller
Bench
Ok, that means atleast two other players in chicago were better than odom. You got that math
Yeah, but I didn't say that he necessarily played with them at the same time... As it happens, he did, but that's neither here nor there...Ok, that means atleast two other players in chicago were better than odom. You got that math
But, relative to BMiller52's "argument," he never played with anybody as good as Odom without Pippen there, so who's to say that he couldn't have done better with a player of that talent?
sloter
Starter
Second to MJ of course. I also think that these comparisons with old school players are a little silly. I'm not saying that someone like West would not be one of the better guards today. But players like Kobe, MJ, Wade, McGrady are monsters physically and I don't think that the old school players guards could really be compared to them.
Big men story is a little bit different.
Big men story is a little bit different.
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You think Kobe is better than Magic?
I'm not seeing it.
Circa_1985_Fan
All-Star
I cant stand the guy as a person...having had the priviledge of meeting him on a couple of occasions...he's a narcissist and a jerk, but...I've never hated on his game. I'll go as far as to say that he's in the top 5 players in the world today...I dont know about all-time, though. I can name about 10 guys from the 80's alone that would give him a run for his money on that list. As far as best Laker guards all-time, Magic and Jerry have to be 1 and 2, obviously. And anyone who wants to say that Kobe is better than Jerry...I'll put it to you like this: When you're the NBA logo...you're better.
sloter
Starter
Well, it's silly to argue over this. They have (had) such different games that it almost comes down to personal taste of what you like better. Their team accomplishments are entirely out of question when you compare the players that they played with.
Personally, I think that the only guard that Kobe can be compared to Kobe based on individual ability is Jordan.
With all this said, I hate Kobe as a person as much as anyone else on this board, but I love his game.
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I don't think that basketball players can be compared individually, because basketball a) isn't played in a vacuum, and b) isn't played one-on-one. I think that greatness in a basketball players is largely defined by what that player was able to elevate the players around him to do. And, in that regard alone, Magic is still far ahead of Kobe.
The greatest can make even average talent look good: wrestling fans are fond of saying that Ric Flair, in his prime, could carry a broomstick to a three-star match. I hold Magic's ability to elevate his teammates in the same regard; I believe that Magic could make a block of wood look like an All-Star. By comparison, Kobe has yet to prove that he can even make a guy with All-Star talent look like an All-Star.
The greatest can make even average talent look good: wrestling fans are fond of saying that Ric Flair, in his prime, could carry a broomstick to a three-star match. I hold Magic's ability to elevate his teammates in the same regard; I believe that Magic could make a block of wood look like an All-Star. By comparison, Kobe has yet to prove that he can even make a guy with All-Star talent look like an All-Star.
When the heck did I say Walton is an all star? He is a decent ROLE PLAYER and that's what I've been saying. Stop twisting my words.
sloter
Starter
No doubt about that, but Magic was also primarily a playmaker (PG) and without his ability to make others around him better he was barely an above average scorer. By that rationale alone, you can say that Nash and Kidd are the greatest players to ever play the game.
Oh and to get back to what I originally said, what Kobe's doing right now IS similar to what TMac did in Orlando. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2003.html
In that season TMac threw up 32/6/5/2 steals and led his team to 42 wins with a horrible supporting cast. Those numbers are similar to or superior to what Kobe is doing right now, even though Kobe's had more 50 point games and what he did last season is superior. TMac actually had a 60 point game and I believe 1 or 2 50 point games in that season or the next season, he was a different player then.
Kobe's better and all but to say it isn't something similar is simply uneducated.
In that season TMac threw up 32/6/5/2 steals and led his team to 42 wins with a horrible supporting cast. Those numbers are similar to or superior to what Kobe is doing right now, even though Kobe's had more 50 point games and what he did last season is superior. TMac actually had a 60 point game and I believe 1 or 2 50 point games in that season or the next season, he was a different player then.
Kobe's better and all but to say it isn't something similar is simply uneducated.
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You didn't qualify your statement by saying "playmaking guard."
sloter
Starter
In Europe, playmaker = point guard. Pass first guard like Magic, and unlike Kobe. You are comparing the players only on the ability to make others better. Kobe is not a point guard, and just like individual ability is not everything in basketball, neither is the ability to make others better. Every point guard in the league makes other players better.
kobe is an ambition-driven, egocentric, arrogant person. no but's or if's; his so called amazing accomplishments/feats do not awe me. i just do not care what he does or does not. to me, it is as if he does not exist and it is much better that way, at least i can still watch basketball despite the existence of players like him.
I also think that Magic is a better rebounder and I'd rather give the ball to Magic with a game on the line.
And you didn't qualify your statement with a "European" delineation; you said "second-best guard ever." Magic and Kobe are both guards. And Magic, IMO, is better than Kobe. Being a more dynamic scorer, in and of itself, doesn't make Kobe a better guard than Magic any more than it makes Iverson a better guard than Isaiah Thomas. Kobe may be a more dominant scorer and even a better defender, but Magic IMO is better in every other aspect of the game of basketball.
hoopsfan
Starter
Wow. Isn't every professional athlete ambition-driven and at least somewhat arrogant? Otherwise how would they get where they are? To dismiss someone's accomplishments just because you don't like them personally is kinda silly, IMO.
If you're watching basketball "despite the existence of players like him" , then you're missing some incredible basketball.
I may not particularly like some players, but I still like to watch...you never know what might happen. Isn't that part of the fun of being a fan?
acisking
Bench
While I certainly agree with Slim that Kobe is probably not the second greatest gaurd to ever play, Sloter also makes an interesting point that Kobe is probably one of the only players that's really in the Jordan mold. He's just built to score, is a reputable defender as well, and has that killer instinct reminscient of MJ. That alone qualifies him as pretty much the best player currently in the NBA.
sloter
Starter
Magic also had the luxury to play with one of the best frontline in the NBA (certainly one of the best at the time). So with that much more room to operate, he made them look better, and they also made him look better.
Kobe has not had any success without Shaq in the lineup, but he still looks pretty good with the ball in his hands.
And I had a feeling that you were going to bring up Iverson... Kobe is not nearly as one-dimensional as you are trying to make him look.
Regardless, this is waaaay too much discussion focused on the lakers...
Neither is Iverson; least-wise, out of all the point guards that get tagged with the "shoot first" moniker in the modern game, Iverson is no less than top-three among playmakers in that group.
Gargamel
Starter
Gargamel
Starter
Magic was 19.5 ppg career. He could've averaged about 24 ppg easily if that's what he wanted -- he had defensive mismatches every night and teams would give him open perimeter shots rather than to have to double him on the low block. Magic posting up meant a double team that left an open teammate (Scott or Worthy) or a hook shot over a short PG. Bad news for the other team, either way.
Magic was the most unique player ever, imo. I don't think Kobe's as great as him in terms of orchestrating an offense, but then again, that shouldn't be Kobe's job as a SG.
As a result, I think it'd be better to judge Kobe against the SGs and not the PGs. In terms of SGs, there's only one guy I think who trumps him. And let me state......I hate him as a person, he's a creep and a narcissist, but Michael Jordan was the GOAT.
vladetomiller
Bench
I think your data is little outdated and wrong to an extent as well. Garnet used to have that monster contract which he then reduced for the sake of the team. Though he is still the top paid player its not as bad as the 30 mil per.
Kobe is the 9th highest paid player and its a matter of a few hundred thousands dollars between him and Duncan. I dont see a problem with that, both are franchise players and you can definitely build teams around them at that salary.
Lakers problem is not Kobe but Brian Grant's monster contract that they still pay and are restricted with that.
To give you and others a perspective, the salary difference between players like Kobe and Duncan (17 mil) vs other second tier players like
Carter (15) , McGrady (~17), Jamison(15) Dirk (15) etc is only a million or so
And for perspective Bibby (top 30) makes 12.5 per year and Steve Nash makes 10 mil per
I dont think you can argue reasonably that Kobe or Duncan should take any less than what they are making given that boy scouts are making almost similar money in this league.
Sure I can; I don't think there's a single player in the league that isn't overpaid, anyway. But most GMs are bound by the salary cap, so how much they pay their star player (if they even have a star player) tends to dictate how much they can offer other players.
vladetomiller
Bench
Isnt that how economy works, supply and demand.
I am sure every individual in this country is overpaid, but thats not the point, we need to talk about relative terms and not get into macro economics
A
AriesMar27
Guest
its funny that kobe scores 60 points and the team only wins by 2 points against a horrible team... thats not greatness...
the man can ball but he is not much of a leader... shaq lead the lakers, kobe was shaqs pippen... dont ever forget that... all these comparisons to mj are horrible...
a better comparison for kobe would be dominique wilkins, not jordan...
the man can ball but he is not much of a leader... shaq lead the lakers, kobe was shaqs pippen... dont ever forget that... all these comparisons to mj are horrible...
a better comparison for kobe would be dominique wilkins, not jordan...
