Kings vs. Lakers pre season game 4

[Gary]

so everyone has completely given up on Tyreke after a few preseason games, in which he was mostly used out of position and not used in the proper starting lineup once yet (IT,Evans,JJ,JT,Cuz)

No, they gave up after 3 seasons not just 3 preseason games. I haven't yet, but if he does get the nod as our starting SG and can't succeed then I don't see a place for him on thie team (at least in the starting lineup). At PG he wasn't any good, at SF he's too small and a defensive liability and at SG is probably his best fit but he still shoots a crappy looking jump shot. We shall see this year if it's any better.

I want to see;
IT or Brooks
Evans or MT
Johnson (corrected name, for some reason I was thinking Jumaine Jones)
Thompson
Cousins

 

[The_Jamal]

I'm amazed how many of you can still find ways to ***** and moan after we've shown significant growth as a team thus far in the preseason, especially on the defensive end

 

[bajaden]

Uhhh... No he wasnt. If they bring tyreke off the bench you can kiss him goodbye because he will never re-sign with us

Just so I can waste my time, Tyreke is going to be a restricted freeagent. Which means we can match any offer. Which means if he opts for freeagency, he won't have a choice if we match his offer.

 

[Bricklayer]

so everyone has completely given up on Tyreke after a few preseason games, in which he was mostly used out of position and not used in the proper starting lineup once yet (IT,Evans,JJ,JT,Cuz)

The funny thing is I can off the top of my head diagram a set/play with Reke that should work almost everytime down the floor. Same play. Nearly impossible to stop given Reke's talent. When you've got a guy who can beat his man one on one its nowhere near as hard to do as we make it look. Take Reke, GIVE HIM THE BALL, on the right angle. He can go right down the baseline. He can go left into the teeth of the paint. Station your PG at the top of the circle, spotted up. Take your SF and put him in the opposite corner spotted up. Take DeMarcus and put him in the midleft post/angle region, facing up (his preferred area). Take JT or TRob and put them to Reke's left, at the elbow. Now give the ball to Reke and let him go. If he goes right, he's got the SF in the corner down the baseline if he's cut off. If he goes left he's got the PG at the top of the circle. If Boogie's man rotates to him, he slips it to him. If he can't get anything going, he either runs a two man game with JT, or slips it to him for a faceup jumper, or to be swung. Its not hard.

As an aside, When Reke got it going late in the game, he just took the ball himself and didn't give it to Jimmer, and just chewed up the scrubbies late in the game. Big shock. He needs the ball. He needs the ball. He needs the ball. That's should be backup offensive structure when Cousins is out. We keep on going through these godawful spells that are equal parts Jimmer jumpers without a pass, Chuck Hayes postups, Jason Thompson postups, long jumeprs from guys who can't shoot them, and drives into the teeth of the defense made by guys who are not artists at it. Its made us extremely inconsistent offensively whenever Cousins isn't in the game. In particular if you are going to take all the other supplemental passers out of the equation, move IT and JJ into the starting lineup, bury Brooks in a ditch somewhee, have no Cousins. Then the rest of the personnel HAVE to play off of Reke, because there is nobody else left who can create anything for anybody.

 

[SacTownKid]

Then he blows up somewhere else and this team will continue to suck because they let go of an elite prospect because they couldn't find a way to make him fit. Geez! You don't try to fit elite level talents around role players its the other way around. I hope he gets traded. This team had a chance to build legit squad around 2 young studs. Instead they sign a bunch of jackers and hire a coach who changes lineups and rotations like he changes his underwear. My patience with this organization is wearing thin.

Blowing up somewhere else shouldn't be a concern if it doesn't make you a better team. If you're concerned about blowing up I suggest not paying attention to any Blazers games this year.

Then there is the argument of whether or not we are talking truly elite here. I see one potentially truly elite player on this team and it isn't him. Not to say it can't work in time.

Can't really argue against your other points though.

 

[SacTownKid]

The funny thing is I can off the top of my head diagram a set/play with Reke that should work almost everytime down the floor. Same play. Nearly impossible to stop given Reke's talent. When you've got a guy who can beat his man one on one its nowhere near as hard to do as we make it look. Take Reke, GIVE HIM THE BALL, on the right angle. He can go right down the baseline. He can go left into the teeth of the paint. Station your PG at the top of the circle, spotted up. Take your SF and put him in the opposite corner spotted up. Take DeMarcus and put him in the midleft post/angle region, facing up (his preferred area). Take JT or TRob and put them to Reke's left, at the elbow. Now give the ball to Reke and let him go. If he goes right, he's got the SF in the corner down the baseline if he's cut off. If he goes left he's got the PG at the top of the circle. If Boogie's man rotates to him, he slips it to him. If he can't get anything going, he either runs a two man game with JT, or slips it to him for a faceup jumper, or to be swung. Its not hard.

As an aside, When Reke got it going late in the game, he just took the ball himself and didn't give it to Jimmer, and just chewed up the scrubbies late in the game. Big shock. He needs the ball. He needs the ball. He needs the ball. That's should be backup offensive structure when Cousins is out. We keep on going through these godawful spells that are equal parts Jimmer jumpers without a pass, Chuck Hayes postups, Jason Thompson postups, long jumeprs from guys who can't shoot them, and drives into the teeth of the defense made by guys who are not artists at it. Its made us extremely inconsistent offensively whenever Cousins isn't in the game. In particular if you are going to take all the other supplemental passers out of the equation, move IT and JJ into the starting lineup, bury Brooks in a ditch somewhee, have no Cousins. Then the rest of the personnel HAVE to play off of Reke, because there is nobody else left who can create anything for anybody.

But it's still a problem when teams sag off of him and/or move into a zone, if you can't consistently score from the outside you will never be unstoppable. A spread play that gives him options outside once inside is just obvious though, too obvious for this coach. Yes, the same coach who posts up Jason Thompson and Chuck Hayes instead of using both for their passing, or plays pick and roll through Jimmer Fredette instead of using him for his shooting, and so on.

 

[Gilles]

Problem is IT-Thornton pair as starting guards won't take you far. With Boogie's growth they might be enough on offense alone to get you into playoff or even second round where Kings will get thoroughly exploited.
Adelman run pretty tight rotation and was sometimes stubborn to take somebody out because he knew it should work out eventually since that player fitted his role.
You take your cornerstones and build everything else around them. Just because IT is the designated PG doesn't mean he should run with the ball all the time leaving Tyreke who is primarily a creator without it. Based on Smart's tenure since last February Tyreke is clearly an afterthought.
P.S. Today Ebanks looked like what Donte Green should have been.

 

[mac]

His defense was maybe average tonight, for every nice defensive play he had, he got burned on another. What was most concerning for me about his offensive night, other than the 5 TO's was him forcing plays that were not there and not looking to get others involved. His scoring efficiency wasn't bad, but we should be expecting a lot more out of Tyreke, especially when he was playing against bench guys for most of his minutes.

We saw a lot of great things from the starters tonight on both ends of the court. We saw a lot of energy and effort on the defensive end and looked balanced offensively with IT running the show.

I disagree on the defensive part. Thought he played very well defensively. Far better than anyone not named James Johnson that's for sure. The funny thing is a lot of times he ends up hanging around the middle of the paint to provide help defense, and he actually is there to challenge the shot when the offensive player blows by our two other defenders on a pick and roll. So that goes to show that our pick and roll coverage isn't good, resulting in Evans needing to sag off his own man to help. The problem is, because of that he sags off his man a little too much at times, leaving his man open for 3s.

In addition, coach really needs to give more focus to mapping out proper plays for Tyreke to create. Every time he gets past his man the defensive bigs just pack the paint to challenge. Somebody is supposed to be open. Don't understand how under Westphal you'd have Omri/Garcia/Salmons wide open for corner 3s but somehow you don't have anyone spotting up for those shots anymore. In addition, we should really work on spacing and offensive balance when we throw the ball to JT/Hayes in the post. I really don't think clearing out one side of the court to let those guys go to work is a smart idea. You should have your shooter stay on the same side of the court while Tyreke then cuts from the other end.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

P.S. Today Ebanks looked like what Donte Green should have been.

Yes. There were days that Donte Greene looked what Donte Greene should have been, though, so I'll wait a bit before I declare Ebanks arrived.

 

[Gilles]

...In addition, we should really work on spacing and offensive balance when we throw the ball to JT/Hayes in the post. I really don't think clearing out one side of the court to let those guys go to work is a smart idea. You should have your shooter stay on the same side of the court while Tyreke then cuts from the other end.

That's actually very important point: Hayes' best offensive skill is by far passing and it's severely underutilized in such situations.

 

[UK_King]

I like that set Horns where you 2 bigs at the high post the small forward sets a down screen and you can get Tyreke coming round the key which is a good play for him, if it's a good screen it will always get him into the middle where he can pass out or finish/draw a foul.

I don't see the problem with calling ISO's for reke, offense has got to be versatile and play to the strength of your players, not rocket science.

I was impressed with Jimmer, i know it's only the Laker scrubs but at least he appears to know what he's going to do with the ball. Last season he'd want to shoot, look around like he was asking permission and throw it up.

Love JJ too, he's erratic but he's always on, loved that Kobe fastbreak where he damn took Kobe's head off with a block attempt, thats what i like to see, no plays off!

 

[bajaden]

Put him on a team like the Spurs and see what happens. He'll be a perennial All Star.

Put Tyreke on the Spurs, and he'd be in for a rude awakening. Look, there's nothing wrong with having players that can isolate. You need them at times. But that same player has to be able to fit into the overall offense. He can't just wander around waiting for his turn, and I'm not saying Tyreke did that. The overall offense can't suffer at the expense of making one or two players look good. As for the Spurs, you either defend or you sit. Period!!! Pop's doesn't put up with ego's or lack of effort. Teams win championships, not individual players. Not saying you don't need great players on your team, but in the end, its still a team and has to play as a team. Jordan found that out with the Bulls, and Kobe found it out with the Lakers

As to whether Tyreke would be a perennial all star, I could care less. Mitch was an all star and we didn't win squat. Its nice when it happens, but in the end, its meaningless unless you win.

 

[bajaden]

It's ok. He'll get traded and the Kings will continue suck because we have morons for an organization that has no vision. Ok, lets keep on playing musical chairs with our second best player instead of finding ways to integrate an offense that heavily involves both Cousins and Evans touching the ball. Lets continue to build this team around role players. 22 wins here we come! Lets resign Keith Smart to a lifetime contract! Give Isaiah Thomas a max contract! This team is a joke.

If this team is a joke, then why are you wasting your time watching them, and wasting our time posting these comments? If they're that bad, then go root for another team. Seriously, why put yourself through this?

 

[bajaden]

I'll finally get to see a game sunday. Hard for me to make serious comments without actually seeing the game. However, it is just pre-season folks. We could 6 and 0, and then still lose most of our games during the regular season. They probably mean a lot more to Smart and the coaching staff than they do to us. They are in fact, indicative of nothing that might happen during the regular season. I do have one burning question though, just where is John Salmons and why isn't he playing?

I've heard that he's not injuried, and he's also not with the team. So what gives, or is there something in the works? Could be personal problems, or there could be a trade coming up. Just speculation of course. It just seems a little strange to me.

 

[UK_King]

It was tweeted by some media types that he was away for personal problems.

 

[Letsgokings13]

Salmons, Trout, Fish... What is with this dude. Im having a hard time believing its a real problem. But if it is, then so be it. He doesnt want to be here, we dont want him here. feelings are mutual

 

[UK_King]

was he with the squad last night? Can't remember seeing him on the bench.

 

[SacTownKid]

I disagree on the defensive part. Thought he played very well defensively. Far better than anyone not named James Johnson that's for sure. The funny thing is a lot of times he ends up hanging around the middle of the paint to provide help defense, and he actually is there to challenge the shot when the offensive player blows by our two other defenders on a pick and roll. So that goes to show that our pick and roll coverage isn't good, resulting in Evans needing to sag off his own man to help. The problem is, because of that he sags off his man a little too much at times, leaving his man open for 3s.

In addition, coach really needs to give more focus to mapping out proper plays for Tyreke to create. Every time he gets past his man the defensive bigs just pack the paint to challenge. Somebody is supposed to be open. Don't understand how under Westphal you'd have Omri/Garcia/Salmons wide open for corner 3s but somehow you don't have anyone spotting up for those shots anymore. In addition, we should really work on spacing and offensive balance when we throw the ball to JT/Hayes in the post. I really don't think clearing out one side of the court to let those guys go to work is a smart idea. You should have your shooter stay on the same side of the court while Tyreke then cuts from the other end.

I wasn't too enthused with the defense of Tyreke, or anyone else not named James Johnson for that matter. A LOT and I mean, A LOT of gambling. It worked this game but if they continue to gamble like that with the real season starts this team is going to be in some trouble.

That 3 point shooter outside has improved from what I've seen. Both James Johnson and Garcia seem to understand how to space the floor, Cisco always has really.

 

[Warhawk]

Not with team – For personal reasons, Salmons is not with the Kings on this three-game trip. It's the third game he has missed.

Smart said Salmons is healthy but that there is no timetable for him to rejoin the team.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/10/20/4925608/honeycutt-well-enough-to-play.html#storylink=cpy

 

[Section 101]

Put Tyreke on the Spurs, and he'd be in for a rude awakening. Look, there's nothing wrong with having players that can isolate. You need them at times. But that same player has to be able to fit into the overall offense. He can't just wander around waiting for his turn, and I'm not saying Tyreke did that. The overall offense can't suffer at the expense of making one or two players look good. As for the Spurs, you either defend or you sit. Period!!! Pop's doesn't put up with ego's or lack of effort. Teams win championships, not individual players. Not saying you don't need great players on your team, but in the end, its still a team and has to play as a team. Jordan found that out with the Bulls, and Kobe found it out with the Lakers

As to whether Tyreke would be a perennial all star, I could care less. Mitch was an all star and we didn't win squat. Its nice when it happens, but in the end, its meaningless unless you win.

Bingo ! Which is why I was against how Evans was handled his rookie year. RoY and 20-5-5 mean nothing right now. A year of working on fundamentals like shooting and off the ball would have been more valuable.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

watched the coaches interview from last night. Smart says he wants Tyreke to take the open jump shots. he said he blows a whistle in practice when he DOESN'T shoot it


he also implied that he will be narrowing down the rotation the last few preseason games

 

[Agent23]

Put Tyreke on the Spurs, and he'd be in for a rude awakening. Look, there's nothing wrong with having players that can isolate. You need them at times. But that same player has to be able to fit into the overall offense. He can't just wander around waiting for his turn, and I'm not saying Tyreke did that. The overall offense can't suffer at the expense of making one or two players look good. As for the Spurs, you either defend or you sit. Period!!! Pop's doesn't put up with ego's or lack of effort. Teams win championships, not individual players. Not saying you don't need great players on your team, but in the end, its still a team and has to play as a team. Jordan found that out with the Bulls, and Kobe found it out with the Lakers

As to whether Tyreke would be a perennial all star, I could care less. Mitch was an all star and we didn't win squat. Its nice when it happens, but in the end, its meaningless unless you win.

Look at what Pop did with Tony Parker. He broke him and stuck with till he became what he is today. Are you telling me he couldn't do the same with Evans? Yes, you're right teams do win BUT stars win championships in the NBA. It's unfortunate and its the Kings have suffered because of it (Lakers of the early 2000's). But when you have 2 potential elite players on your team, you do your darndest to make sure they are the focus. You see how you breathe on Durant or Westbrook and you get a whistle. You look at Kobe wrong and you get a whistle? Thats what should have been built here. A team full of role players don't win Championships. Look at San Antonio. The moment Tim Duncan stop being elite, they no longer were a true title contender. That's what Miami chased after, stars. That's why LA wins all the time. Stars. It's frustrating because they have 2 guys who can be those stars for the Kings.

 

[Agent23]

If this team is a joke, then why are you wasting your time watching them, and wasting our time posting these comments? If they're that bad, then go root for another team. Seriously, why put yourself through this?

Look, I'm frustrated with certain things going with the organization. I just can't abandon the team. I'm a glutten for punishment.

 

[Section 101]

Look at what Pop did with Tony Parker. He broke him and stuck with till he became what he is today. Are you telling me he couldn't do the same with Evans? Yes, you're right teams do win BUT stars win championships in the NBA. It's unfortunate and its the Kings have suffered because of it (Lakers of the early 2000's). But when you have 2 potential elite players on your team, you do your darndest to make sure they are the focus. You see how you breathe on Durant or Westbrook and you get a whistle. You look at Kobe wrong and you get a whistle? Thats what should have been built here. A team full of role players don't win Championships. Look at San Antonio. The moment Tim Duncan stop being elite, they no longer were a true title contender. That's what Miami chased after, stars. That's why LA wins all the time. Stars. It's frustrating because they have 2 guys who can be those stars for the Kings.

Duncan hasn't been the same player for a few years now. He plays less minutes and sits out games to rest. Yet the Spurs are still winning those games.

 

[rainmaker]

If this team is a joke, then why are you wasting your time watching them, and wasting our time posting these comments? If they're that bad, then go root for another team. Seriously, why put yourself through this?

Sorry Baja, but I don't get why you keep making these comments. Good fans are here through the ups and the downs. Being here during the tough times is really the mark of a fan. Having a positive or negative outlook, or anything inbetween has no bearing on how good of a fan you are.

How come if fans who stick with this team through down years complain, which is completely normal in the bigger teams sports world wide, would you tell them to root for another team? Many fans were here before Petrie, and will be after. Before Adelman and after. Before Smart and will be after. Organizations always change, for better or worse but good fans stick around.

I mean, if you walked up to an Arsenal supporter in London last year, or a Liverpool fan this year, and he told you they were being run like a joke, which they arguably were based on their standards, and you said well just go root for another team, the response you get would be a lot worse than what we see around here. Same thing with east coast NFL fans/teams. Same thing with some Red Sox or Yankee fans.

I just don't get the go root for someone else statements. Just my opinion.

 

[baller13]

Just so I can waste my time, Tyreke is going to be a restricted freeagent. Which means we can match any offer. Which means if he opts for freeagency, he won't have a choice if we match his offer.

.
Just so i can now waste my time. What if nobody offers Tyreke big money, which is possible since he hasnt looked to great after being misused for 3 years here? Tyreke wants big time money and if nobody offers that then he may not sign with them. And if he doesnt sign a long term deal with us then he will be playing next season under a 1 year tender in which case after next season he would be an UN-restricted free agent. I dont want Tyreke Evans for this year and then 1 more. I want Tyreke Evans for the next 10 years.

 

[Gary]

.
Just so i can now waste my time. What if nobody offers Tyreke big money, which is possible since he hasnt looked to great after being misused for 3 years here? Tyreke wants big time money and if nobody offers that then he may not sign with them. And if he doesnt sign a long term deal with us then he will be playing next season under a 1 year tender in which case after next season he would be an UN-restricted free agent. I dont want Tyreke Evans for this year and then 1 more. I want Tyreke Evans for the next 10 years.

If he doesn't fit then he doesn't fit.. There are a lot of cases where you can downgrade individual talent in areas and the team becomes better because the player is a better at being a team player.

Evans has not sown us that he can play team ball consistently. He plays great individual ball but when it comes to the point of getting others involved he's a liability, and being the guy with the ball in his hands he needs to learn that skill or learn to play off the ball and have someone else delegate his shots. I want to see how he does at SG though before I say it's time for him to go though. I have a gut feeling though it will be more of the same this year, and he "could" be shipped out by the deadline, depending on how the team is doing.

 

[upinsmoke]

I wasn't too enthused with the defense of Tyreke, or anyone else not named James Johnson for that matter. A LOT and I mean, A LOT of gambling. It worked this game but if they continue to gamble like that with the real season starts this team is going to be in some trouble.

Coach Smart needs to give these players defined roles and IMO Evans should be asked to use his energy to lock up the opposing 2 guard creating turnovers ect ect and be ready to go to work on the fast breaks and hard cuts to the rim.

 

[Gilles]

Duncan hasn't been the same player for a few years now. He plays less minutes and sits out games to rest. Yet the Spurs are still winning those games.

And fail every time it matters when they run into the team built properly. Team offense can win you a lot in the regular season. Remember when Webber came back they were still posting great numbers even with basically 7 good players on the team and they even pushed Wolves to 7 game series but in game 7 Garnett was a monster and Kings could do nothing about it. Thornton and Thomas will be shutdown if need be, Tyreke as a second fiddle to Cousins is much harder to deal with if put in the right situation.

 

[mac]

Duncan hasn't been the same player for a few years now. He plays less minutes and sits out games to rest. Yet the Spurs are still winning those games.

Well ok then get Popovich to coach our team and you can send Tyreke packing. Star players become a lot less important when you've actually got a good coach who knows how to teach good team play. You get a good coach and your team can be the best in the West even without superstars that will go down as some of the best in history. At the same time, you can have a bad coach, no team play, and a guy named Lebron James and end up reaching the finals and having the best record in the East.

Now I'm not comparing Evans to LeBron, but I think that you need to make use of what you have while possible. I honestly don't believe that Smart will be as good a coach as Pop, few are. So using the Spurs as an example to advocate trading Evans for lesser pieces that fit better may not be quite correct. How about Smart actually spend some time teaching Evans, get back on that track of teaching him to map the floor, and running some non-iso plays for Evans to create for others, or to actually get some points cutting on a fixed play instead of asking Evans to cut and hoping someone manages to get him the ball. This thing about Evans not taking the open jumpshot has always puzzled me, because I haven't seen these open shots that Evans is giving up both last year and so far this preseason. Well not regularly at least. What he does have is a little bit of space between his man and him, but then him pulling up in such a situation is still very much a 1 on 1 play. It's not like we're creating open shots for Evans but he's refusing to take them.

I don't know, to me it just seems like Smart has focused a whole lot more on helping Cousins to develop than Evans. He goes out of his way to ensure that he has a good relationship with Cuz, but puts Evans at SF (and the whole bloody Kings world knows Evans doesn't want to be at SF). He lets Cuz take 3s, but doesn't draw up good plays for Evans to score or create for others. If Smart truly desires to see Evans develop and become a leader next to Cuz, he'd be doing more to teach him how to be a better team player by giving him the structure necessary to learn to do so.