Kings vs Hawks - Summer League Game 5

[Kingster]

Over the next couple of years McLemore really needs to develop a go-to move that allows him to get some easy shots. He can't consistently rely on outside shots; otherwise he could go through some gawdawful nights. Maybe it's a runner, maybe backing his man down for an inside shot, maybe an easy hook shot or an escape dribble followed by a bank shot. I dunno. But for his confidence he needs something he can get that easy basket in a game to make him feel good about his game and himself.

Atlanta got a steal in Schroder.

 

[Sac.Kings]

Nothing has changed skillwise or specialwise unless you just don't understand how those terms are being used. He actually did hit a few shots that would move him up a few notches on the foodchain if he can ever make them consistently, but they looked pretty raw and clearly heat checky. We'll see if he can one day develop those dribble pullups and whatnot. Otherwise dunks on the break and assisted spot shots is not a special skillset. Notching 0 assists to 22 turnovers over a 5 game span as a SG is not a special skillset. If you can't create, for yourself or others, you're not special.

Now I would certainly agree getting a repeat of the microwave effect this game was encouraging. But it doesn't change what he showed and didn't show. I was saying from the beginning he would likely hit shots at some point. But without the ability to create shots, that's a real feast or famine build. And if anything the stumbling drives and whatnot he barely got in summer league will become that much more impossible when he's matched up against Tony Allen. Right now that's a roleplayer, not a special talent. You have him spot up and wait for a kick, or you have him run the break. He has a chance to fill that role well and be useful, and especially if he has a get hot trait to him he could run off 8 quick points for you. But if that's it...that's where the not special and not that skilled comments come in. Doesn't mean he's useless or out of the league...does mean he's only as good as his teammates make him.

I think we have different definitions of the word special. You seem to consider special to be superstar level talent, or in other words the Lebron, Durant, Wade, and Kobe type level. I have different levels of special. He can be special. Bibby never once made a single all star game, but he was special was he not? Special for his clutch shooting, special for his moments that defined him throughout his career. Many players dream of moments like that. Christie was special on the defensive end. Perhaps McLemore becomes special in his own regard. Special for his streaks and his scoring, special for energizing the team. The difference with our team vs Miami, for example, is that they needed wing players who can break down their man and go into the paint. We don't need that as much as they do because our biggest talent is in the post and we take away from him if we had players that love to drive and can only drive. McLemore can be special when combined with Cousins for all we know. You don't know that, I don't know that, no one knows it (yet). The kid is raw, his game needs work, but its rare for a 20 year old to have a complete dominating game coming in. You usually call those players potential superstars. I don't mean what I say to be negative or just to bash your opinion; I just think your version of special is different from mine.

 

[The_Jamal]

I think we have different definitions of the word special. You seem to consider special to be superstar level talent, or in other words the Lebron, Durant, Wade, and Kobe type level. I have different levels of special. He can be special. Bibby never once made a single all star game, but he was special was he not? Special for his clutch shooting, special for his moments that defined him throughout his career. Many players dream of moments like that. Christie was special on the defensive end. Perhaps McLemore becomes special in his own regard. Special for his streaks and his scoring, special for energizing the team. The difference with our team vs Miami, for example, is that they needed wing players who can break down their man and go into the paint. We don't need that as much as they do because our biggest talent is in the post and we take away from him if we had players that love to drive and can only drive. McLemore can be special when combined with Cousins for all we know. You don't know that, I don't know that, no one knows it (yet). The kid is raw, his game needs work, but its rare for a 20 year old to have a complete dominating game coming in. You usually call those players potential superstars. I don't mean what I say to be negative or just to bash your opinion; I just think your version of special is different from mine.

Agreed with this completely. I look at what McLemore comes in with (Elite shooting stroke, Elite athleticism, good defensive fundamentals, protoype SG size) and I can't think of a single comparison in the NBA for his game.That should qualify as "special" right off the bat or at least that we have ourselves a very unique talent. He's going to need work, epecially with his ball-handling, but we've seen in 2 games here that his shooting stroke and athleticism can put him in an elite class of players. Luckily, I think this new regime will handle our young talent much better than the previous and can properly develop a talent like McLemore

 

[Sac.Kings]

Agreed with this completely. I look at what McLemore comes in with (Elite shooting stroke, Elite athleticism, good defensive fundamentals, protoype SG size) and I can't think of a single comparison in the NBA for his game.That should qualify as "special" right off the bat or at least that we have ourselves a very unique talent. He's going to need work, epecially with his ball-handling, but we've seen in 2 games here that his shooting stroke and athleticism can put him in an elite class of players. Luckily, I think this new regime will handle our young talent much better than the previous and can properly develop a talent like McLemore

If summer league showed anything, it's that he is incredibly inconsistent, loses his cool mentally when shots don't fall (begins to rush them), and that he had difficulty driving and handling (which was already a known). However, the other side showed a guy with deadly accuracy, a mean streak, and the ability to score with style, giving you a highlight dunk or two. There is clearly a lot to sort out and fix, but it's not like you have very little to work with. The guy I saw in the 3rd quarter looked like he was the predator, and everyone else the prey. So he shoots instead of drives. That's HIS gift. You don't take away from him because it's not the gift you wanted.

I would like to mention Ray, as he had a standout performance himself and actually answered my question if he could really pass the ball. 11 assists on this summer league team deserves a medal! I am happy they ended on a win and hopefully Malone isn't as embarrassed anymore

 

[Livinthedream]

What a bunch of drama queens we are. Without the distraction of relocation, we are being super critical of situations that don't need it. I don't think we got anything out of summer league that we didn't expect. Before the league started, we expected that Mclemore would be a shooter and get shots off of screens. Expected him to have difficulty with the dribble and we weren't sure about his defense. Now that the summer league is over, our expectations were met. Mclemore was the leading scorer for the team. That's what I expected from him and glad I got it. Shooting percentage will increase when he is more selective with his shot. He was able to rebound better than expected in some instances. Still suspect on D and with the dribble. If anyone was hoping for the next Michael Jordan out the box, you were delusional. All the things we didn't get out of Mclemore, we knew before all of this.

I know we've been losing for 7 years in row and we want to turn it around right away, but that's just not likely. Our big win of the offseason is keeping the team, period.

 

[gunks]

McLemore has the potential to be a really really good 3rd option. We have option #1. Too bad we traded option #2.


I'm thinking we either get that guy in the draft (if we suck again this coming season, which we probably will. Although having a legit PG and a legit coach could go a long way). Or, more likely, PDA tries to nab a vet via trade to be that second option.

 

[Chubbs]

I think I just felt a tingle of happiness.

Come back off the ledge.

 

[Spike]

McLemore has the potential to be a really really good 3rd option. We have option #1. Too bad we traded option #2.


I'm thinking we either get that guy in the draft (if we suck again this coming season, which we probably will. Although having a legit PG and a legit coach could go a long way). Or, more likely, PDA tries to nab a vet via trade to be that second option.

My guess is that they look to gamble in the draft for that #2. If not, we might get one with a combination of enders and picks in the hopes that we can resign that #2 later.

 

[dude12]

I don't think anyone on the forum thinks he is another Kobe or anything like that...potential-wise. Still, as the draft "experts" said, he may have the highest ceiling of anyone in the draft. Long, long ways to go to get there with the already mentioned improvements needed to happen. He does have the tools as far as athleticism and size for a 2 guard. Now it's up to him and the organization to get him there.

Bottom line there are going to be many nights of frustration with him and then games where he does this....has a good game.

 

[Chubbs]

My inspirational half time speech must have gotten to Ben.

Reverse psychology.

 

[Chubbs]

McLemore got hot.

Watching now. He morphed into a new person. Had a swagger.

 

[kennadog]

Perhaps a minor point, but the Kings were the only team at summer league that had a 100% rookie roster. On some teams there were even guys listed at 6 and 7 years as a "pro." Pro either as foreign teams or NBDL, with some currently between teams.

 

[dmj]

Nothing has changed skillwise or specialwise unless you just don't understand how those terms are being used. He actually did hit a few shots that would move him up a few notches on the foodchain if he can ever make them consistently, but they looked pretty raw and clearly heat checky. We'll see if he can one day develop those dribble pullups and whatnot. Otherwise dunks on the break and assisted spot shots is not a special skillset. Notching 0 assists to 22 turnovers over a 5 game span as a SG is not a special skillset. If you can't create, for yourself or others, you're not special.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I thought he looked a lot better handling the ball in the last game than he did in the first. And I think there is room for optimism that he can develop this part of his game. He played almost entirely off the ball at Kansas, where they run a very coordinated offense. So we are essentially talking about a player who has gone from high school (where I believe he played PF much of the time) to the NBA without being put in much of a position to develop his handles in game situations. No one should be surprised that he has problems putting the ball on the floor at this point in time. Of course, Ben likely found himself in those situations because of his lack of ability in the first place, but there is no progress without practice. In the end, he is still young, so I will choose to be optimistic about his chances.

One final observation is that a player who can shoot the ball well quickly, and with a high release point like Ben, doesn't have to become an amazing, Tyreke Evans, caliber ball-handler in order to create his own shot. So the bar isn't set quite so high to begin with.

 

[Livinthedream]

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I thought he looked a lot better handling the ball in the last game than he did in the first. And I think there is room for optimism that he can develop this part of his game. He played almost entirely off the ball at Kansas, who runs a very coordinated offense. So we are essentially talking about a player who has gone from high school (where I believe he played PF much of the time) to the NBA without being put in much of a position to develop his handles in game situations. No one should be surprised that he has problems putting the ball on the floor at this point in time.

One final observation is that a player who can shoot the ball well quickly, and with a high release point like Ben, doesn't have to become an amazing, Tyreke Evans, caliber ball-handler in order to create his own shot. So the bar isn't set quite so high to begin with.

You're absolutely right. Which is why people say he has a high ceiling. He hasn't even begun to scratch his potential yet. It remains to be seen if he realizes that potential, but he's exactly where we expected as far as skill goes.

 

[Gary]

McLemore has the potential to be a really really good 3rd option. We have option #1. Too bad we traded option #2.


I'm thinking we either get that guy in the draft (if we suck again this coming season, which we probably will. Although having a legit PG and a legit coach could go a long way). Or, more likely, PDA tries to nab a vet via trade to be that second option.

MT will be a fine #2. He's already proven he can average 20ppg.

 

[kingwin]

MT will be a fine #2. He's already proven he can average 20ppg.

i think so too...hes in for a big year with the loss of tyreke and adding greivis...

 

[Spike]

MT will be a fine #2. He's already proven he can average 20ppg.

I think here is the disconnect. I'm looking for that long term #2 option. This year? Yeah, it's likely Thornton. But my goal is a deep playoff run/championship. Cousins is my clear #1. #2?

It gets murky. When the game slows to a crawl, and you need someone to get that bucket because Cousins is covered, who do you call? It isn't a jump shooter, who may or may not be hot at the time. It's someone who can get to the line, at the worst. It's that bona fide yin to Cousins's yang. He's not on this roster yet.

 

[Entity]

That's easy John salmons

 

[Hadlowe]

Nothing has changed skillwise or specialwise unless you just don't understand how those terms are being used. He actually did hit a few shots that would move him up a few notches on the foodchain if he can ever make them consistently, but they looked pretty raw and clearly heat checky. We'll see if he can one day develop those dribble pullups and whatnot. Otherwise dunks on the break and assisted spot shots is not a special skillset. Notching 0 assists to 22 turnovers over a 5 game span as a SG is not a special skillset. If you can't create, for yourself or others, you're not special.

Now I would certainly agree getting a repeat of the microwave effect this game was encouraging. But it doesn't change what he showed and didn't show. I was saying from the beginning he would likely hit shots at some point. But without the ability to create shots, that's a real feast or famine build. And if anything the stumbling drives and whatnot he barely got in summer league will become that much more impossible when he's matched up against Tony Allen. Right now that's a roleplayer, not a special talent. You have him spot up and wait for a kick, or you have him run the break. He has a chance to fill that role well and be useful, and especially if he has a get hot trait to him he could run off 8 quick points for you. But if that's it...that's where the not special and not that skilled comments come in. Doesn't mean he's useless or out of the league...does mean he's only as good as his teammates make him.

If I was feeling particularly ornery, I could point out that playing next to Tyreke would have given him those open looks off the dribble penetration.

But I'm not feeling ornery, so I won't point that out.

I could though. Just sayin'.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Fans place way too much stock into Summer League performances. They mean absolutely nothing. If a player averages 20, it doesn't in any way prove that he's going to be a star in the league. If a player struggles, it doesn't prove that he can't play.

If McLemore had 27 and 9 in his first game, people would have overreacted in the other direction.

It's going to be about midway into the regular season before any of us really has an idea about what kind of player McLemore may become.

 

[VF21]

I think here is the disconnect. I'm looking for that long term #2 option. This year? Yeah, it's likely Thornton. But my goal is a deep playoff run/championship. Cousins is my clear #1. #2?

It gets murky. When the game slows to a crawl, and you need someone to get that bucket because Cousins is covered, who do you call? It isn't a jump shooter, who may or may not be hot at the time. It's someone who can get to the line, at the worst. It's that bona fide yin to Cousins's yang. He's not on this roster yet.

And that's where we need to just show some patience IMHO. Our front office is trying hard to undo years of neglect, mismanagement and acquisition of players who could be had for future second round draft picks. That did anything but create a solid foundation for them to build on. Vivek has made it abundantly clear that he wants people who want to be here, who have a certain character and commitment and are willing to buy into the new culture. It's gonna take time. I think next year at this time we'll have a much better idea of where our team is going - and I personally feel very optimistic (which I know is no surprise to anyone who has read any of my posts ).

 

[VF21]

Fans place way too much stock into Summer League performances. They mean absolutely nothing. If a player averages 20, it doesn't in any way prove that he's going to be a star in the league. If a player struggles, it doesn't prove that he can't play.

If McLemore had 27 and 9 in his first game, people would have overreacted in the other direction.

It's going to be about midway into the regular season before any of us really has an idea about what kind of player McLemore may become.

It might take longer than that... Peja was on the bench for two years before he finally erupted into something special. From Wikipedia: "After two seasons on the bench with Sacramento, he had a breakthrough season in 2000–01, averaging 20.4 points and 5.8 rebounds while shooting .400 from three-point range in his first season as a starter. He finished second in voting for the 2001 Most Improved Player Award."

I'm not sure why it occurs, but some people seem to want seasoned professionals right out of the draft. It doesn't always happen that way. A lot of players take a couple of years to get into their groove. I think the worst thing we could do to Ben is to put too much pressure on him to be someone he just isn't yet ready to be.

 

[Spike]

Absolutely, VF.
I guess my point is just not to anoint #2, because, he's not here yet. I do get, based on off-season moves, the fact that we'll have to wait for that option.

 

[CruzDude]

I think one of the announcers nicknamed minnerath "baby bird' for possible likeness to chris andersen

Should be Minne-bird tho'. Nick is NO baby thats for sure.

 

[CruzDude]

Ahh, VF to the logical and practical rescue. Thanks for putting it in perspective, I suspect for the umpteenth time. In half a season (mid-late January 2014) we will start to see what is the culture and "team" aspect of the players. But it will take December 2014 before we really know what the Kings have and how far into the playoffs they can ascend and how quickly.

This final summer league game merely showed us was was expected of the two draftees and what they can do. McCallum could have had 10 assists a game if the others moved without the ball and made the shots he dished to them. Minne-Bird is a keeper. Gordon (PF), Lockert (a SG) and maybe Aiken (as a SF) for Reno.

 

[swisshh]

Perhaps a minor point, but the Kings were the only team at summer league that had a 100% rookie roster. On some teams there were even guys listed at 6 and 7 years as a "pro." Pro either as foreign teams or NBDL, with some currently between teams.

And what would be Summer League without Donte Greene?

 

[Dime Dropper]

Haven't watched the game yet, nor read the thread.

Are we over-reacting again? Or are we downplaying the two big games for the bad ones? Or are we acknowledging that McLemore came and in showed his weaknesses in full view, but also has true, legitimate NBA talent? Where it doesn't have to be one extremity or the other. Where McLemore has clear weaknesses and likely isn't ever becoming a true star, but is capable of making big plays with both his shooting ability, athleticsm and glue-stuff (rebounding tonight, passing some other night).

This year has always been different than the T-Rob/Jimmer years. It's pretty obvious why to anyone that watched Ben in college. Has ability to occassionally do things that no one else can (not saying he did tonight, but will do next season). Prototype skill set for 2 guard. At the very least he'll be a solid player. Needs good coaching and positive attitude, but will get there.

 

[Gary]

I think here is the disconnect. I'm looking for that long term #2 option. This year? Yeah, it's likely Thornton. But my goal is a deep playoff run/championship. Cousins is my clear #1. #2?

It gets murky. When the game slows to a crawl, and you need someone to get that bucket because Cousins is covered, who do you call? It isn't a jump shooter, who may or may not be hot at the time. It's someone who can get to the line, at the worst. It's that bona fide yin to Cousins's yang. He's not on this roster yet.

I see what you're saying but I really believe that Thornton could be a #2 "scorer". Whether his defense improves it will be up to the coaching to harp on him about it.

But back to being a #2 option, I don't see why he couldn't be one for a couple years and by then hopefully we have a SF that can take over games.

Not many teams have two 20ppg players in the starting lineup (based on Thornton's first half year with us along with his potential to be that player again if he's back to starting) along with a 8-9apg guy and a couple 9-11rpg guys.

 

[Boogie-havoc]

Like I said, I do not care about offense at this point. Totally irrelevant until pre-season starts.

But I’m VERY concerned about Ben’s defensive instincts and ability as far as what he showed in Summer League, cause defense is defense no matter where.

No offense to him or trying to be too harsh – but the kid looks straight up dumb playing defense out there. I mean there’s no other word to put it.

Average foot speed on D allowing blowbys almost everytime, hardly ever in a proper defensive stance, ALWAYS 1-2 seconds too late, looks extremely confused and moves out of his positions constantly without any need to, NEVER keeps track of his man.

I really hope Coach Malone takes him as a project and get in his ear constantly teaching him the ropes, cause this kid is straight up clueless defensively right now.

With Thomas Robinson, and now Ben McLemore – what the **** does Bill Self teach his kids? I mean seriously. You’d think they’ll understand the game atleast on that side of the floor better.

 

[Padrino]

ben mclemore is a shooter. he's a shooter, people. some nights, the shots will fall. other nights, the shots will not fall. there is no surprise here. given his inability to consistently handle or create for himself, the question remains the same: on those off shooting nights, what will mclemore be able to contribute?