Kings Training Camp

macadocious

macadocious

Starter
I know it's early, but since Vivek can shave looks like we have our team heading into training camp.


PG: Rondo/Collison/Curry/Stockton
SG: McLemore/Belinelli/Anderson
SF: Gay/Cassipi/Butler
PF: WCS/Acy/Moreland/Dukan
C: Cousins/Koufos

Dukan and Stockton are not making this team. Moreland has a shot at playing before Acy. As for actual depth, as has been dicsussed, by far the deepest team we have had in ages. We have 3 7 footers (I'm including Cuz). We have athletic wings and veteran leadership there and we have a 2 headed PG roster.
 
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There are 240 playable minutes per NBA game. Here is a breakdown of MPG our players played last season.

PG: 63.5
Rondo - 28.7
Collison - 34.8
Curry - 0

SG: 65
McLemore - 32.6
Belinelli - 22.4
Anderson - 10 (Using 10 here because he only had one year on Phili with regular minutes before he went overseas)

SF: 77.3
Gay -35.4
Casspi - 21.1
Butler - 20.8

PF: 44.8
WCS (college) - 25.9
Acy - 18.9
Moreland - 0

C: 50.7
Cousins - 34.1
Koufos - 16.6

That is 301 MPG above, without including any minutes for Moreland or Curry.


Now here is what we will probably see:

PG: 48
Rondo - 30
Collison - 18
Curry - 0

SG: 48
McLemore - 28
Belinelli - 15
Collison - 11
Anderson - 0

SF: 48
Gay -20
Casspi - 13
Butler - 5

PF: 48
WCS - 18
Acy - 10
Koufas - 5
Gay - 10
Cousins - 5
Moreland - 0

C: 48
Cousins - 29
Koufos - 12
WCS - 7
 
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I believe based on the above post with minute breakdowns...I think we will see Koufos more than the 18 minutes. I think much of it depends on matchups and Cuz foul trouble from game to game but I can see Koufos getting closer to averaging 20-24 minutes.

The more interesting aspect to follow for me at least is to see who loses time in the backcourt. Rondo and Collison are going to get their time but who starts at SG? Bellinelli or Bmac? I think Ben is going to have his minutes cut but to what extent, who knows?
 
macadocious said:
There are 240 playable minutes per NBA game. Here is a breakdown of MPG our players played last season.

PG: 63.5
Rondo - 28.7
Collison - 34.8
Curry - 0

SG: 65
McLemore - 32.6
Belinelli - 22.4
Anderson - 10 (Using 10 here because he only had one year on Phili with regular minutes before he went overseas)

SF: 77.3
Gay -35.4
Casspi - 21.1
Butler - 20.8

PF: 44.8
WCS (college) - 25.9
Acy - 18.9
Moreland - 0

C: 50.7
Cousins - 34.1
Koufos - 16.6

That is 301 MPG above, without including any minutes for Moreland or Curry.


Now here is what we will probably see:

PG: 48
Rondo - 30
Collison - 18
Curry - 0

SG: 48
McLemore - 28
Belinelli - 15
Collison - 11
Anderson - 0

SF: 48
Gay -20
Casspi - 13
Butler - 5

PF: 48
WCS - 18
Acy - 10
Koufas - 5
Gay - 10
Cousins - 5
Moreland - 0

C: 48
Cousins - 29
Koufos - 12
WCS - 7
Click to expand...

I get where you're coming from so I don't want to quibble too much about the numbers but I'd point out that (1) Rudy has averaged nearly 36 mpg for his career and only averaged less than 34 mpg his rookie season. You have him playing 30 minutes but then again you also only have 38 minutes accounted for at SF. I'd guess Gay would play 24 and Casspi 19. For that matter, Butler may not get consistent minutes if everyone is healthy. Also I would think Koufos would play more than 17 minutes a game. That's essentially what he logged in Memphis and a big part of his signing with the Kings was to get a more expanded role. I wouldn't be surprised to see him starting next to Cuz at the beginning of the season at least.

Other than those small points I agree to a large extent but of course the issue is that those deep bench guys are really only important when injuries hit. If Curry is the 3rd PG he WILL play this year. Collison has been pretty durable averaging 70 games a year. Outside of last year (where he only played 45 games) he's averaged 75 games per season. Rondo has averaged just under 64. Taking out the season he tore his ACL and the subsequent season where he missed the beginning of the year he averaged 72 games a year. So in all likelihood there will be 10-20 games where Curry is the primary backup PG. And a decent chance that both Rondo and Collison will be out making him the presumptive starter. Now maybe Karl goes with Anderson instead or some other option but however we look at it, there WILL be a need for that 3rd PG. If it's Curry we just have to hope he's ready to play significant minutes and at least not be a major liability.

I could say for sure that Andre Miller wouldn't be. I can't say that with Curry. We'll see.
 
I got interrupted at work (stupid work) like 5 times while making that post, so some numbers are wrong. Meant to add Marco in at some SF. Kosta may be a bit more minutes. I don't think Rondo will play 36+, I think it will be 28-32 on most nights. Which would be smart IMO, to keep him fresh for a playoff run.
 
macadocious said:
I got interrupted at work (stupid work) like 5 times while making that post, so some numbers are wrong. Meant to add Marco in at some SF. Kosta may be a bit more minutes. I don't think Rondo will play 36+, I think it will be 28-32 on most nights. Which would be smart IMO, to keep him fresh for a playoff run.
Click to expand...

And that is one of the best reasons for a team to have good depth in the first place. It's why the Spurs are able to gear up for a playoff run year after year and conversely may be part of the reason the Bulls haven't met postseason expectations. You want to be able to keep your guys fresh but not playing them too many minutes but still be able to win games. A simple concept but it's surprising how often franchises neglect it and either don't focus on a strong bench and/or play their starters too many minutes in the regular season.

The Warriors this season benefitted from both amazingly good health from their starters AND an incredibly solid bench. Lots of blowout wins meant lots of games with Curry, Thompson & co resting during the 4th quarter.

The Kings won't be nearly that good but considering how good their starting five was last season an improved bench means both injury protection and likely a lot more wins going forward.
 
macadocious said:
There are 240 playable minutes per NBA game. Here is a breakdown of MPG our players played last season.

PG: 63.5
Rondo - 28.7
Collison - 34.8
Curry - 0

SG: 65
McLemore - 32.6
Belinelli - 22.4
Anderson - 10 (Using 10 here because he only had one year on Phili with regular minutes before he went overseas)

SF: 77.3
Gay -35.4
Casspi - 21.1
Butler - 20.8

PF: 44.8
WCS (college) - 25.9
Acy - 18.9
Moreland - 0

C: 50.7
Cousins - 34.1
Koufos - 16.6

That is 301 MPG above, without including any minutes for Moreland or Curry.


Now here is what we will probably see:

PG: 48
Rondo - 30
Collison - 18
Curry - 0

SG: 48
McLemore - 28
Belinelli - 15
Collison - 11
Anderson - 0

SF: 48
Gay -20
Casspi - 13
Butler - 5

PF: 48
WCS - 18
Acy - 10
Koufas - 5
Gay - 10
Cousins - 5
Moreland - 0

C: 48
Cousins - 29
Koufos - 12
WCS - 7
Click to expand...


This is how I see it shaking down:

PG: 48
Rondo - 30
Collison - 18
Curry - 0
Stockton - 0

SG: 48
McLemore - 26
Belinelli - 12
Collison - 10
Anderson - 0

SF: 48
Gay -22
Casspi - 20
Belinelli - 6
Butler - 0

PF: 48
Cousins - 12
WCS - 23
Gay - 13
Acy - 0
Moreland - 0

C: 48
Cousins - 23
Kofuos - 25


Overall Minutes:
Cousins - 35 min
Gay - 35 min
Rondo - 30 min
Collison - 28 min
McLemore - 26 min
Koufos - 25 min
Cauley-Stein - 23 min
Casspi - 20 min
Belinelli - 18 min
 
twslam07 said:
This is how I see it shaking down:

PG: 48
Rondo - 30
Collison - 18
Curry - 0
Stockton - 0

SG: 48
McLemore - 26
Belinelli - 12
Collison - 10
Anderson - 0

SF: 48
Gay -22
Casspi - 20
Belinelli - 6
Butler - 0

PF: 48
Cousins - 12
WCS - 23
Gay - 13
Acy - 0
Moreland - 0

C: 48
Cousins - 23
Kofuos - 25


Overall Minutes:
Cousins - 35 min
Gay - 35 min
Rondo - 30 min
Collison - 28 min
McLemore - 26 min
Koufos - 25 min
Cauley-Stein - 23 min
Casspi - 20 min
Belinelli - 18 min
Click to expand...


Solid.

Unless injured, Rondo will play 5-6 more minutes at the expense of Ben and Collison.
 
twslam07 said:
This is how I see it shaking down:

PG: 48
Rondo - 30
Collison - 18
Curry - 0
Stockton - 0

SG: 48
McLemore - 26
Belinelli - 12
Collison - 10
Anderson - 0

SF: 48
Gay -22
Casspi - 20
Belinelli - 6
Butler - 0

PF: 48
Cousins - 12
WCS - 23
Gay - 13
Acy - 0
Moreland - 0

C: 48
Cousins - 23
Kofuos - 25


Overall Minutes:
Cousins - 35 min
Gay - 35 min
Rondo - 30 min
Collison - 28 min
McLemore - 26 min
Koufos - 25 min
Cauley-Stein - 23 min
Casspi - 20 min
Belinelli - 18 min
Click to expand...

Casspi isn't getting more minuets than Belinelli if he does it's a bad thing but means Marco regressed as a player.
 
randymoss1881 said:
Casspi isn't getting more minuets than Belinelli if he does it's a bad thing but means Marco regressed as a player.
Click to expand...
I see it as Collison getting more minutes than Belinelli since Collison is taking a lot of the backup SG minutes due to Rondo being on the team. Belinelli is really a one position player. He shouldn't be moved around too much. His defense prevents him from being very versatile.
 
macadocious said:
No way we are only going 9 deep. 10 deep will be normal for regular season, every once in a while 11 or 12.
Click to expand...

Why not? You have to keep your players happy with minutes, and for the first time in awhile, we have quite a few players who we need (and who deserve) to get minutes.

I'm okay with Butler seeing time, but who's minutes are we going to be cutting into? There's not much wiggle room from what I can see.
 
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The big man rotation is thin unless Moreland can crack the rotation then the Kings should have plenty of options with Rudy playing the four at times.
 
twslam07 said:
Why not? You have to keep your players happy with minutes, and for the first time in awhile, we have quite a few players who we need (and who deserve) to get minutes.

I'm okay with Butler seeing time, but who's minutes are we going to be cutting into? There's not much wiggle room from what I can see.
Click to expand...

Because it's not playoffs and we don't need guys playing that much unless the games are tight. Game scenarios will dictate that. But I would guess a normal game would have 10 players.
 
macadocious said:
Because it's not playoffs and we don't need guys playing that much unless the games are tight. Game scenarios will dictate that. But I would guess a normal game would have 10 players.
Click to expand...

I really don't understand the outrage at all.

What I Recommended vs. Last Year's Minutes:
Cousins - 35 min vs. 34 min
Gay - 35 min vs. 35 min
Rondo - 30 min vs. 30 min
Collison - 28 min vs. 35 min
McLemore - 26 min vs. 33 min
Koufos - 25 min vs. 17 min
Cauley-Stein - 23 min vs. 26 min
Casspi - 20 min vs. 21 min
Belinelli - 18 min vs. 22 min

Everybody's minutes on this team either went down or stayed the same with the exception of Koufos (Cousins only has a 1 min increase in my scenario). So basically, you're saying that the 8 mpg increase for Koufos from last year to this year means that this team has guys playing too many minutes? That doesn't make sense to me. Why is it so unrealistic to expect that these players can play the same or less minutes than they did last year? (Koufos being the only exception)
 
Last edited:
As of now I see our depth in terms of likely to see most minutes

1. Cousins
2. Gay
3. Rondo
4. Collison
5. Ben
6. Koufos
7. Bellinelli
8. Casspi
9. WCS
10. Butler
11. Anderson
12. Acy
13. Curry
14. Moreland
15. Dukan, Stockton, Hawkins battle for final spot.


Imo we will go 9 deep most nights, with Butler popping on to the rotation for about 40-50 of the games to provide shooting. Anderson if Ben or Bellinelli are off. Acy a little less than Butler but will still contribute. The rest will move up only due to injuries of the top 12 guys or for special situations.
 
jcwkings said:
As of now I see our depth in terms of likely to see most minutes

1. Cousins
2. Gay
3. Rondo
4. Collison
5. Ben
6. Koufos
7. Bellinelli
8. Casspi
9. WCS
10. Butler
11. Anderson
12. Acy
13. Curry
14. Moreland
15. Dukan, Stockton, Hawkins battle for final spot.


Imo we will go 9 deep most nights, with Butler popping on to the rotation for about 40-50 of the games to provide shooting. Anderson if Ben or Bellinelli are off. Acy a little less than Butler but will still contribute. The rest will move up only due to injuries of the top 12 guys or for special situations.
Click to expand...

You must really be predicting a ton of small-ball if Cauley-Stein is 9th and Acy is 12th knowing how foul prone Cousins can get sometimes...
 
twslam07 said:
You must really be predicting a ton of small-ball if Cauley-Stein is 9th and Acy is 12th knowing how foul prone Cousins can get sometimes...
Click to expand...

I have WCS 9th simply because hes a rook, if he pans out like I think he should he would be below Collison by the All star break. Yes I expect some small ball with Rudy starting at the 4 initially.
 
If Gay is starting then I'd guess Casspi would as well so Butler would be the backup SF and higher on the minutes ranking.
 
funkykingston said:
If Gay is starting then I'd guess Casspi would as well so Butler would be the backup SF and higher on the minutes ranking.
Click to expand...

Not exactly, you could start both, WCS comes in early for Casspi sliding Gay to the 3 and Casspi could come back in to spell Gay when he gets his rest. Ideally your starting frontcourt is Gay, WCS, Cuz, just doubt its that from day one.
 
funkykingston said:
And that is one of the best reasons for a team to have good depth in the first place. It's why the Spurs are able to gear up for a playoff run year after year and conversely may be part of the reason the Bulls haven't met postseason expectations. You want to be able to keep your guys fresh but not playing them too many minutes but still be able to win games. A simple concept but it's surprising how often franchises neglect it and either don't focus on a strong bench and/or play their starters too many minutes in the regular season.

The Warriors this season benefitted from both amazingly good health from their starters AND an incredibly solid bench. Lots of blowout wins meant lots of games with Curry, Thompson & co resting during the 4th quarter.

The Kings won't be nearly that good but considering how good their starting five was last season an improved bench means both injury protection and likely a lot more wins going forward.
Click to expand...

not sure we'll have that luxury of saving guys for the playoffs given what a desperate tight squeeze its going to be just to sneak into the playoffs, but depth is obviously a strength now after being a weakness. We can't lose Cousins of course, not even with Kosta there. The 3rd PG situation becomes alarming if we lose either Rondo or Collison. If WCS goes down we don't have a starting quality PF at all. Its not perfect. But in general we can lose a wing and cover for their loss pretty easily. We can lose a PG, and still have a starting quality PG sitting there. The big man situation is not 100% comfortable but as long as Cuz is healthy we've got a formidable piece, and Koufos is a rock (81, 80 and 81 games the last 3 seasons) capable of playing much more than backup minutes if the opportunity arises. We can survive a little bad luck. Just please no life threatening illnesses, ****ing backstabbing gerbils, drama queen coaches, naive meddling owners or anything else this time. Just keep all that crap away and let's have a real season for once. Literally been 5 years since one of our seasons was not chaos. The same length of time Cuz has been here. Know I'd be tired of it.
 
Bricklayer said:
not sure we'll have that luxury of saving guys for the playoffs given what a desperate tight squeeze its going to be just to sneak into the playoffs, but depth is obviously a strength now after being a weakness. We can't lose Cousins of course, not even with Kosta there. The 3rd PG situation becomes alarming if we lose either Rondo or Collison. If WCS goes down we don't have a starting quality PF at all. Its not perfect. But in general we can lose a wing and cover for their loss pretty easily. We can lose a PG, and still have a starting quality PG sitting there. The big man situation is not 100% comfortable but as long as Cuz is healthy we've got a formidable piece, and Koufos is a rock (81, 80 and 81 games the last 3 seasons) capable of playing much more than backup minutes if the opportunity arises. We can survive a little bad luck. Just please no life threatening illnesses, ****ing backstabbing gerbils, drama queen coaches, naive meddling owners or anything else this time. Just keep all that crap away and let's have a real season for once. Literally been 5 years since one of our seasons was not chaos. The same length of time Cuz has been here. Know I'd be tired of it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but I think they may be planning on either starting Gay at the 4 or playing him significant mins there. That would slide one of our wings into a more prominent role and mean a better "balanced" roster... still not sure how I'd feel about that though.
 
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The Hammer said:
Yeah, but I think they may be planning on either starting Gay at the 4 or playing him significant mins there. That would slide one of our wings into a more prominent role and mean a better "balanced" roster... still not sure how I'd feel about that though.
Click to expand...

My statement stands if that is the plan. ;)

Seriously that's asinine. A complete dumbass misinterpretation of what and how "smallball" lineups have worked. But then again this franchise has always been afflicted with dumbasses like ticks on a hound.
 
The Hammer said:
Yeah, but I think they may be planning on either starting Gay at the 4 or playing him significant mins there. That would slide one of our wings into a more prominent role and mean a better "balanced" roster... still not sure how I'd feel about that though.
Click to expand...
It'll be interesting to see how Karl plays Rudy now that we have more talent and depth at every position. With last year's roster, I can understand how he would have seen Rudy as a guy who could give us some advantages at the 4. But with our current roster, Karl may not see those 'advantages' the same way.
 
Our big guys. We don't know how much more than normal Karl will go small, how much Gay will play the 4.

Three of our bigs are and have played as Centers. The best PF we have is maybe Moreland and maybe 6-7 Acy. We miss JT who would by far be our best PF.

This situation probably means that one of our "Centers" will start at PF and one at center. Should be OK.

There may be another transaction or someone will wave a magic wand over Dukan or Gudiatis or Raduljica or Mitrovic. Nothing like a little Disney pixie dust.

It will be interesting to see how this develops.
 
I think we will go more with Gay at the 4... so this is how I think it will look like:

PG: 48
Rondo - 28
Collison - 20
Curry - 0
Stockton - 0

SG: 48
McLemore - 25
Belinelli - 15
Collison - 8
Anderson - 0

SF: 48
Casspi - 22
Gay -13
Belinelli - 8
Butler - 5

PF: 48
Gay - 23
WCS - 15
Cousins - 10
Acy - 0
Moreland - 0

C: 48
Cousins - 24
Kofuos - 24


Overall Minutes:
Gay - 36 min
Cousins - 34 min
Rondo - 28 min
Collison - 28 min
McLemore - 25 min
Koufos - 24 min
Belinelli - 23 min
Casspi - 22 min
Cauley-Stein - 15 min
Butler- 5 min

This means we start Rudy at the 4, have 8 min of the dual PG lineup and 10 min of Cousins/Koufos.
 
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