[Game] Kings @ Spurs, 2/1/14, 5:30 PST, 8:30 EST

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

He has averaged over 15 since becoming starter. That wasn't the point. Although I see where that would be your focus since you don't have a leg to stand on when I said there are 50+ players in the nba that could give you same offensive stats if given the opportunity IT has. Just look at backup pgs with same skillet to narrow the search. Nate Robinson. Patty mills.... IT is not doing anything that somebody else couldn't do.

Tell me what is so special? What makes him seem so good? The 20 ppg? Nate Robinson averages 10 pts on 8 shots. IT averages 20 pts on 15 with more trips to the line. Can you honestly tell me that Robinson couldn't give us same output with same attempts?

I don't have a leg to stand on? You just told me in another thread that you would trade IT for Mills straight up.

Exhibit A of your inability to talk about Thomas objectively.

Patty Mills averages 3.2 assists per36. Per game? forget about it. No comparison.

And 20 points on 15 shots is better than 10 on 8. And why is getting to the line a bad thing? How about the better FG%? His younger age?

And how about the fact that Thomas is actually doing it? You can say Nate or Mills can do it, but they aren't. I've watched a lot of Nate Robinson. Between his Boston years, and his early NY days when he was involved in a lot of Kings rumors - Thomas is a better player.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Reserv: 27.7min 17.8pts (.458 on 12.6FGA .403 .860) 2.3reb 4.9ast 1.4stl 0.0blk 2.6TO (per 36: 23.1pts 3.0reb 6.4ast 1.8stl on 16.4FGA)
Starter: 37.5min 21.3pts (.437 on 16.9FGA .366 .861) 3.1reb 7.1ast 1.2stl 0.1blk 2.8TO (per 36: 20.5pts 3.0reb 6.8ast 1.2stl on 16.2FGA)
Januar: 36.9min 21.2pts (.412 on 17.1FGA .327 .867) 2.9reb 6.7ast 1.2stl 0.1blk 2.9TO (per 36: 20.7pts 2.8reb 6.5ast 1.2stl on 16.7FGA)

I per36'd the splits off to the right. And here is the thing: Isaiah Thomas has shown little if any ability to change/improve his PG game. Look at the assists, look at the FGA per 36 -- its the same exact thing he was doing off the bench, except less efficient and now competing with better players. IT gonna IT.

P.S. TS% his first three years:
11-12: .574
12-13: .574
13-14: .570

IT is who and what he is. One of the consequences, good and bad, of drafting older rookies. They are more advanced, more set in their ways, more likely to hit the league running as just who they are going to be.

I wish Malone would shave about 3-5 minutes off his minutes per game as a starter. 37.5 is just too much, and i'm assuming that has jumped around 40 since Cousins went down. It's out of control.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Kind of chicken and egg, if you ask me. Does Thomas hog the ball because his teammates are incapable, or are his teammates incapable because he hogs the ball? I know which one I lean toward.

This seems worthy of a separate thread and analysis itself. I've been wondering about it through the course of the season, mostly regarding Thornton--on one hand you don't want to take shots away from the guy shooting a better percentage to the guy shooting .385. On the other hand, looking at Thornton's career numbers, he does tend to shoot better when he gets more looks. Of course, it also depends what types of shots they're getting and where on the court they're taking them. Definitely merits more analysis if anyone's willing to put in the time/effort.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

This seems worthy of a separate thread and analysis itself. I've been wondering about it through the course of the season, mostly regarding Thornton--on one hand you don't want to take shots away from the guy shooting a better percentage to the guy shooting .385. On the other hand, looking at Thornton's career numbers, he does tend to shoot better when he gets more looks. It also depends what types of shots they're getting and where on the court they're taking them. Definitely merits more analysis if anyone's willing to put in the time/effort.

I think it's a combination of things, but Thornton had every opportunity early in the season to play as the 2nd option to Cousins with Vasquez as the point guard, and he was just as bad as he is right now, if not worse. I have no idea what happened to him.

 

[Entity]

I don't have a leg to stand on? You just told me in another thread that you would trade IT for Mills straight up.

Exhibit A of your inability to talk about Thomas objectively.

Patty Mills averages 3.2 assists per36. Per game? forget about it. No comparison.

And 20 points on 15 shots is better than 10 on 8. And why is getting to the line a bad thing? How about the better FG%? His younger age?

And how about the fact that Thomas is actually doing it? You can say Nate or Mills can do it, but they aren't. I've watched a lot of Nate Robinson. Between his Boston years, and his early NY days when he was involved in a lot of Kings rumors - Thomas is a better player.

Mills would get more assist if that were his role. Yes 20 on 15 is better than 10 on 8 Double that and is 20 on 15 that much better than 20 on 16? No it's not. I'm not saying Nate is a great player or patty mills is a great player. That's kind of my point. They are trade fodder. Hence my take on IT

 

[Bricklayer]

I wish Malone would shave about 3-5 minutes off his minutes per game as a starter. 37.5 is just too much, and i'm assuming that has jumped around 40 since Cousins went down. It's out of control.

since Cousins went down:

37.3min 23.2pts (.406 on 22.2FGA .261 .955) 2.5reb 6.0ast 0.7stl 0.0blk 2.5TO (39.6min and 24.0FGA in the 5 full games not counting Utah sick game)

 

[Bricklayer]

Mills would get more assist if that were his role. Yes 20 on 15 is better than 10 on 8 Double that and is 20 on 15 that much better than 20 on 16? No it's not. I'm not saying Nate is a great player or patty mills is a great player. That's kind of my point. They are trade fodder. Hence my take on IT

People making those comparisons are in the general ballpark stylewise, but not talentwise. The term "poor man's" applies in those cases.

 

[Bricklayer]

since Cousins went down:

37.3min 23.2pts (.406 on 22.2FGA .261 .955) 2.5reb 6.0ast 0.7stl 0.0blk 2.5TO (39.6min and 24.0FGA in the 5 full games not counting Utah sick game)

I want to expound on my own point here.

I ran this search: show me all guards in NBA history who have averaged 22FGA/gm or greater in a season. Here were the results:

"PGs"
Tiny Archibald x1 (his MVP year, he averaged 11.4ast as well)
Allen Iverson x8
Calvin Murphy x1
Earl Monroe x1
JoJo White x1

SGs
Kobe Bryant x5
Jerry West x4
Pete Maravich x4
Dwayne Wade x1
Dave Bing x1
World B. Free x1
Richie Guerin x1
Geoff Petrie x1

If I make it the 24/gm he would be averaging without the Utah illness, here's the list: Guerin, Kobe, Archibald x1, Maravich x2, Iverson x5.

There is a reason I have been referring to Isaiah's statlines once he felt released to indulge himself as Iverson statlines. In the modern basketball era the only two guys chucking at that pace have been Iverson and Kobe (one year of Wade). Hence for Isaiah to do it, to feel he should do it, for us to allow him to do it...is just insane.

 

[rainmaker]

Malone deserves some of the blame here. There's things I like about Malone and he's a promising coaching prospect but he's shown little ability to reel in IT. Just getting IT to stop jacking up the contested transition 3's which he launches 2-3 times per game would be a slight improvement.

I'ts either Malone is not doing enough to reel in IT or IT is flat out ignoring Malone's demands to reel it in. What's amazing is seeing IT appearing at times to have been talked too and concentrating more on moving the ball, yet he still ends up leading the team in FGA's by a decent amount. Still putting up 20, 25, even 30 FGA's. You simply can't do that as a PG unless you're a legit HOFer who can close out games by himself.

 

[Npliam]

Well I don't know what to say about that. As I've mentioned elsewhere IT's season FG% (and yes TS%) is right back almost spot on career averages now. So is it going to continue to fall as he chucks himself right into the doghouse? Or is it going to stabilize at about the career numbers? Don't know. But do know if he keeps forcing up so much crap its more likely to be the former.

The thing is it doesn't seem like it would be that hard to get IT back to the supper efficient, clutch scorer that he was at the first of the year. Play him 10 less minutes a game and yank him if he starts jacking shots like he has been the last couple of games. He isn't helping the team win, in fact when he is playing like he has been in the last 5-6 games he is hurting way more than helping.

Malone needs to get a handle on him and it doesn't seem that it would take all that much tweaking to do.

 

[sdballer]

Not sure why this continues to be so much of a debate. As a sixth man who can focus on his own offense for around 20 minutes/game he'd be extremely valuable. As a starter on a team with two other primary scorers (who also aren't great defenders) there are simply too many problems with him at pg. He shoots way too often and while it's at a fairly good percentage, his efficiency doesn't justify taking shots from our stars (let alone the failure to get any one else on the team consistently good shots). Add in his defensive deficiencies and it's really not that much of a question.

 

[bajaden]

I want to expound on my own point here.

I ran this search: show me all guards in NBA history who have averaged 22FGA/gm or greater in a season. Here were the results:

"PGs"
Tiny Archibald x1 (his MVP year, he averaged 11.4ast as well)
Allen Iverson x8
Calvin Murphy x1
Earl Monroe x1
JoJo White x1

SGs
Kobe Bryant x5
Jerry West x4
Pete Maravich x4
Dwayne Wade x1
Dave Bing x1
World B. Free x1
Richie Guerin x1
Geoff Petrie x1

If I make it the 24/gm he would be averaging without the Utah illness, here's the list: Guerin, Kobe, Archibald x1, Maravich x2, Iverson x5.

There is a reason I have been referring to Isaiah's statlines once he felt released to indulge himself as Iverson statlines. In the modern basketball era the only two guys chucking at that pace have been Iverson and Kobe (one year of Wade). Hence for Isaiah to do it, to feel he should do it, for us to allow him to do it...is just insane.

You left one off, the great Oscar Robertson. He averaged over 22 attempts per game 5 different times, his best year coming in the 1961/62 season when he averaged 30.9 PPG on 22.9 attempts, while shooting 47.8% from the field. Of course he also averaged 11.4 assists and 12.5 rebounds for a triple double. For his career he averaged 25.7 PPG on 18.8 attempts, while shooting 48.5%. He also averaged 7.5 rebounds and 9.5 assists. Of course Oscar was 6'5" not 5'9". I agree on the insane part.

 

[VF21]

...If I make it the 24/gm he would be averaging without the Utah illness, here's the list: Guerin, Kobe, Archibald x1, Maravich x2, Iverson x5.

There is a reason I have been referring to Isaiah's statlines once he felt released to indulge himself as Iverson statlines. In the modern basketball era the only two guys chucking at that pace have been Iverson and Kobe (one year of Wade). Hence for Isaiah to do it, to feel he should do it, for us to allow him to do it...is just insane.

And that should explain why so many of us are unhappy...

 

[Gilles]

Not sure why this continues to be so much of a debate. As a sixth man who can focus on his own offense for around 20 minutes/game he'd be extremely valuable. As a starter on a team with two other primary scorers (who also aren't great defenders) there are simply too many problems with him at pg. He shoots way too often and while it's at a fairly good percentage, his efficiency doesn't justify taking shots from our stars (let alone the failure to get any one else on the team consistently good shots). Add in his defensive deficiencies and it's really not that much of a question.

But here's the problem of allowing current situation to reach this point: is he going to settle as 6th man with only 20 mpg, and what contract he gets, based on his perfomance. I may not like him much, but he will get $8 million. Is it your 20 minutes backup?