[Game] Kings @ Spurs, 2/1/14, 5:30 PST, 8:30 EST

[enigma99a]

There's just no realistic way this happens. You put IT back on the bench for Ray and you're begging for problems. BIG problems. The only way IT goes back to being 6th man is if we're able to bring in a legitimate starting PG. That's just the way it is, no matter how much some of us fans want it to be different.

Yea totally. Just gradually give more minutes to Ray and keep IT starting.

 

[Ugolino]

We need a 2 and a 4. Until then it's just exhibition

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Hardly. Aside from the month of December, when he was hot, he's shooting .418 on the season. It's way more than just this "recent stretch."

He's 6th in the NBA in FG% for PG's

 

[mac]

This, IMO, is the flaw in your argument: I neither expect Thomas to pick up the scoring slack, nor play forty minutes. We don't really know if anyone else is capable of taking up the scoring slack, because no one but the ice cold Thornton is allowed to shoot, besides Gay and Thomas. Who ****ing needs Thomas to score twenty points? How about he gets one more layup for Gray, one more jump hook for Thompson, and one more back door for Thornton (as opposed to making him only take contested jumpers against the shot clock), and then he only has to score fourteen points?!

Who the hell needs him to play forty minutes? How about we let McCallum hassle the other team's point guard for ten minutes (Seriously, am I the only person who thought that the ball movement was much better when McCallum was in, instead of Thomas?), and then he only has to play 30-35 minutes?

No you're not. I think the ball movement is always better regardless whether it's Jimmer or McCallum in instead of Thomas

 

[t-rex]

There's just no realistic way this happens. You put IT back on the bench for Ray and you're begging for problems. BIG problems. The only way IT goes back to being 6th man is if we're able to bring in a legitimate starting PG. That's just the way it is, no matter how much some of us fans want it to be different.

Yeah I suppose. Hopefully we get a legit starting PG at the deadline.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

And he's jacking up 20+ shots now. He hasn't been all year. He's at about 15 FGA per game last time I checked. This has been a rough stretch, and I am not happy with how the entire team has played without Cousins, but what can you do?

Give the ball to someone else?

Some more data regarding Thomas' shooting:

Month        FGA    FG%    GP    GS

Oct/Nov:    11.9    .458    14    0
Dec:        15.7    .470    16    12
Jan:        17.1    .412    16    16

FYI, Thomas was shooting .430 for the month of January, before Cousins went down. Kind of throws a bit of cold water on the "shooting well all year" canard.

So is he doing enough to involve them? maybe not. How capable are they? In my opinion, not very.

Kind of chicken and egg, if you ask me. Does Thomas hog the ball because his teammates are incapable, or are his teammates incapable because he hogs the ball? I know which one I lean toward.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

He's 6th in the NBA in FG% for PG's

Pretty much entirely on the strength of that one good month. The .418 he's shot in games that weren't played in December is probably a little lower on the list.

 

[PurpleHaze]

Ray Mac is Kings future PG - but maybe 2-3 years away. Remember Steve Nash was on the bench learning for 3-4 years before starting. IT is future Kings combo guard at best (no good) but 6th man for sure (OK) - or take his hero midget baller show someplace else. For now, a filler true PG like Andre Miller is OK with me, a Goran Dragic dynamic PG at trade deadline much, much better.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Pretty much entirely on the strength of that one good month. The .418 he's shot in games that weren't played in December is probably a little lower on the list.

.418 is still top 12, and that's without pointlessly taking away the rest of the leagues point guards' best month.

 

[enigma99a]

Yeah I suppose. Hopefully we get a legit starting PG at the deadline.

Same here.... and maybe we can package MT in as well! If we can do that, it would be robbery

 

[Bricklayer]

.418 is still top 12, and that's without pointlessly taking away the rest of the leagues point guards' best month.

that's fairly pathetic for the whole smallball revolution.

 

[rainmaker]

.418 is still top 12, and that's without pointlessly taking away the rest of the leagues point guards' best month.

I guess the question is, do you or don't you think some of our other guys would shoot better than .418 on open shots, backdoors, layups off ball movement/cutting or in a rhythm if we had a PG creating open looks for them?

I think yes.

Everyone else's shooting %'s aren't what they could be either a they're forced to force contested shots just to get some shots up.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Besides that solidly mediocre FG% is there any way of knowing how many times Pizza Leader has gotten his shot blocked this season? It seems to happen around 2-3 times each game or more - which is astronomical.

Well, Yahoo's box score shows how many times a player was blocked in that game, but it doesn't appear to be reflected in the player's profile... and I'll be damned if I'm going to go through all forty-six boxes to find out for you.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I guess the question is, do you or don't you think some of our other guys would shoot better than .418 on open shots, backdoors, layups off ball movement/cutting or in a rhythm if we had a PG creating open looks for them?

I think yes.

Everyone else's shooting %'s aren't what they could be either a they're forced to force contested shots just to get some shots up.

I wouldn't use .418 in this case. It's entirely unfair. He's shooting .444 on the year, good for 6th in the league as his position. And 6.3 ast, 12th in the league for his position.

So while I agree with the majority of what everyone is saying, where I think we disagree is with how good Thomas is, or more importantly how hard it would be to replace him.

And I stand by my overall point with Thomas and that is that there are only a handful of guys who I would take over him AND are realistically available.

Kyle Lowry and Rajon Rondo are the two guys on the top of that list for me. They are quite possibly the only two point guards in the league who fit both the criteria of being seemingly available, and being a definite upgrade over the guy we have now.

 

[sdballer]

He's 6th in the NBA in FG% for PG's

Where do you see this? I tried running fg% for pg's that have played at least 30 games and take at least 8 shots/game and found this:

Tony Parker 50.7
Goran Dragic 50.5
Chris Paul 46.4
Jeremy Lin 46.3
Mike Conley 45.8
Jose Calderon 45.6
Steph Curry 45.3
Rodney Stuckey 45
George Hill 44.7
Jrue Holiday 44.7
Then IT at 44
With 3 guys right behind at 43%

The bigger issue is that he's taking more shots than all of the guys above him except Curry (and that doesn't take into account him shooting more at a worse percentage starting).

In fact, he takes the 4th most shots/game of any pg (6th most of any guard-more than Harden even) beside Curry, Irving and Westbrook despite the fact that he is our 3rd option.

 

[Entity]

Well, Yahoo's box score shows how many times a player was blocked in that game, but it doesn't appear to be reflected in the player's profile... and I'll be damned if I'm going to go through all forty-six boxes to find out for you.

I'm actually waiting on this

 

[Npliam]

Where do you see this? I tried running fg% for pg's that have played at least 30 games and take at least 8 shots/game and found this:

Tony Parker 50.7
Goran Dragic 50.5
Chris Paul 46.4
Jeremy Lin 46.3
Mike Conley 45.8
Jose Calderon 45.6
Steph Curry 45.3
Rodney Stuckey 45
George Hill 44.7
Jrue Holiday 44.7
Then IT at 44
With 3 guys right behind at 43%

The bigger issue is that he's taking more shots than all of the guys above him except Curry (and that doesn't take into account him shooting more at a worse percentage starting).

In fact, he takes the 4th most shots/game of any pg (6th most of any guard-more than Harden even) beside Curry, Irving and Westbrook despite the fact that he is our 3rd option.

What would be ineresting is to look at IT's numbers as a starter and as a 6th man. I would be willing to bet that they are night and day different and his numbers as a starter give a much more accurate picture of who he is right now.

 

[Entity]

What would be ineresting is to look at IT's numbers as a starter and as a 6th man. I would be willing to bet that they are night and day different and his numbers as a starter give a much more accurate picture of who he is right now.

Surprised to see you tonight

 

[Entity]

I wouldn't use .418 in this case. It's entirely unfair. He's shooting .444 on the year, good for 6th in the league as his position. And 6.3 ast, 12th in the league for his position.

So while I agree with the majority of what everyone is saying, where I think we disagree is with how good Thomas is, or more importantly how hard it would be to replace him.

And I stand by my overall point with Thomas and that is that there are only a handful of guys who I would take over him AND are realistically available.

Kyle Lowry and Rajon Rondo are the two guys on the top of that list for me. They are quite possibly the only two point guards in the league who fit both the criteria of being seemingly available, and being a definite upgrade over the guy we have now.

Not hard to replace. Prob 50 or more players could put up same offensive stats if given the green light like he has. He is not a modern day miracle. He just shoots a lot. Give Nate Robinson 26 shots a game he will do same thing. Heck (I know this will haunt me) but give jimmer 26 shots he will do same.

Isaiah is not doing anything special. He is just taking the ball out of special players hands

 

[Telemachus]

Well, Yahoo's box score shows how many times a player was blocked in that game, but it doesn't appear to be reflected in the player's profile... and I'll be damned if I'm going to go through all forty-six boxes to find out for you.

IT has had his shot blocked 43 times this season (prior to tonight).

 

[Npliam]

Surprised to see you tonight

To be honest I didn't watch much of the game. I did watch Ray play.

 

[Npliam]

Not hard to replace. Prob 50 or more players could put up same offensive stats if given the green light like he has. He is not a modern day miracle. He just shoots a lot. Give Nate Robinson 26 shots a game he will do same thing. Heck (I know this will haunt me) but give jimmer 26 shots he will do same.

Isaiah is not doing anything special. He is just taking the ball out of special players hands

Jimmer is a better gunner and a much better passer.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Where do you see this? I tried running fg% for pg's that have played at least 30 games and take at least 8 shots/game and found this:

Tony Parker 50.7
Goran Dragic 50.5
Chris Paul 46.4
Jeremy Lin 46.3
Mike Conley 45.8
Jose Calderon 45.6
Steph Curry 45.3
Rodney Stuckey 45
George Hill 44.7
Jrue Holiday 44.7
Then IT at 44
With 3 guys right behind at 43%

The bigger issue is that he's taking more shots than all of the guys above him except Curry (and that doesn't take into account him shooting more at a worse percentage starting).

In fact, he takes the 4th most shots/game of any pg (6th most of any guard-more than Harden even) beside Curry, Irving and Westbrook despite the fact that he is our 3rd option.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/b...ence=NBA&year=season_2013&sort=21&qualified=1

Maybe Yahoo sorts guards weird?

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Not hard to replace. Prob 50 or more players could put up same offensive stats if given the green light like he has. He is not a modern day miracle. He just shoots a lot. Give Nate Robinson 26 shots a game he will do same thing. Heck (I know this will haunt me) but give jimmer 26 shots he will do same.

Isaiah is not doing anything special. He is just taking the ball out of special players hands

Ok, see .. this is where perception gets out of hand. He doesn't take 26 shots, he takes 15.

 

[Entity]

Ok, see .. this is where perception gets out of hand. He doesn't take 26 shots, he takes 15.

He has averaged over 15 since becoming starter. That wasn't the point. Although I see where that would be your focus since you don't have a leg to stand on when I said there are 50+ players in the nba that could give you same offensive stats if given the opportunity IT has. Just look at backup pgs with same skillet to narrow the search. Nate Robinson. Patty mills.... IT is not doing anything that somebody else couldn't do.

Tell me what is so special? What makes him seem so good? The 20 ppg? Nate Robinson averages 10 pts on 8 shots. IT averages 20 pts on 15 with more trips to the line. Can you honestly tell me that Robinson couldn't give us same output with same attempts?

 

[HereWeBoogie]

i've actually seen Nate Robinson lead his team to playoff victories, so i can't listen to anyone that says Isaiah Thomas is clearly a better basketball player

 

[VF21]

IT has had his shot blocked 43 times this season (prior to tonight).

Is that high or low or average? I need more context...

 

[Bricklayer]

What would be ineresting is to look at IT's numbers as a starter and as a 6th man. I would be willing to bet that they are night and day different and his numbers as a starter give a much more accurate picture of who he is right now.

Reserv: 27.7min 17.8pts (.458 on 12.6FGA .403 .860) 2.3reb 4.9ast 1.4stl 0.0blk 2.6TO (per 36: 23.1pts 3.0reb 6.4ast 1.8stl on 16.4FGA)
Starter: 37.5min 21.3pts (.437 on 16.9FGA .366 .861) 3.1reb 7.1ast 1.2stl 0.1blk 2.8TO (per 36: 20.5pts 3.0reb 6.8ast 1.2stl on 16.2FGA)
Januar: 36.9min 21.2pts (.412 on 17.1FGA .327 .867) 2.9reb 6.7ast 1.2stl 0.1blk 2.9TO (per 36: 20.7pts 2.8reb 6.5ast 1.2stl on 16.7FGA)

I per36'd the splits off to the right. And here is the thing: Isaiah Thomas has shown little if any ability to change/improve his PG game. Look at the assists, look at the FGA per 36 -- its the same exact thing he was doing off the bench, except less efficient and now competing with better players. IT gonna IT.

P.S. TS% his first three years:
11-12: .574
12-13: .574
13-14: .570

IT is who and what he is. One of the consequences, good and bad, of drafting older rookies. They are more advanced, more set in their ways, more likely to hit the league running as just who they are going to be.

 

[Npliam]

Reserv: 27.7min 17.8pts (.458 on 12.6FGA .403 .860) 2.3reb 4.9ast 1.4stl 0.0blk 2.6TO (per 36: 23.1pts 3.0reb 6.4ast 1.8stl on 16.4FGA)
Starter: 37.5min 21.3pts (.437 on 16.9FGA .366 .861) 3.1reb 7.1ast 1.2stl 0.1blk 2.8TO (per 36: 20.5pts 3.0reb 6.8ast 1.2stl on 16.2FGA)
Januar: 36.9min 21.2pts (.412 on 17.1FGA .327 .867) 2.9reb 6.7ast 1.2stl 0.1blk 2.9TO (per 36: 20.7pts 2.8reb 6.5ast 1.2stl on 16.7FGA)

I per36'd the splits off to the right. And here is the thing: Isaiah Thomas has shown little if any ability to change/improve his PG game. Look at the assists, look at the FGA per 36 -- its the same exact thing he was doing off the bench, except less efficient and now competing with better players. IT gonna IT.

P.S. TS% his first three years:
11-12: .574
12-13: .574
13-14: .570

IT is who and what he is. One of the consequences, good and bad, of drafting older rookies. They are more advanced, more set in their ways, more likely to hit the league running as just who they are going to be.

So as a starter he shoots 4-5 shots more a game and averages 3 more points......that is a problem.

 

[Bricklayer]

So as a starter he shoots 4-5 shots more a game and averages 3 more points......that is a problem.

Well I don't know what to say about that. As I've mentioned elsewhere IT's season FG% (and yes TS%) is right back almost spot on career averages now. So is it going to continue to fall as he chucks himself right into the doghouse? Or is it going to stabilize at about the career numbers? Don't know. But do know if he keeps forcing up so much crap its more likely to be the former.