[Game] Kings @ Hornets, 12/10/21 4pm Pacific 7pm Eastern

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hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#331
#331
BillyStrings said:
All this talk about statistics with free throws…at the end of the day, no matter what happened prior to those shots, an NBA point guard on a max contract has to make one of those shots. Some people have the clutch gene, and Fox doesn’t.
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This is such BS. The first of those last two attempts popped in and out. He basically missed the mark by an inch. If it goes in he's a hero. Some people already made their mind up weeks ago (years ago?) that Fox needs to go and they're just waiting for a chance to pounce on a mistake. If you're going to ignore that he went 11 for 17 in this game, got to the line 10 times, scored 14 points in the fourth quarter to even give us a chance to win and tapped the ball away from Bridges and Hayward three times in the last few minutes and then say that he's not clutch because of two missed free throws then you deserve a last place team. And of course we have to bring up that max contract now every time he makes a mistake, right? We're the Sacramento Kings. 16 years without a playoff game but we're too good for scrubs like Fox. :rolleyes:
 
L

Livinthedream

All-Star
#332
#332
Just browsing through the comments, but for those defending Fox.....he's gotta hit those free throws. Yes, Charlotte is missing players, but they're the top scoring team in the league, so one could expect a high scoring game. Regardless of anything else, there was an opportunity to win the game and he Fox blew it. There is no defense of that.
 
Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#333
#333
hrdboild said:
This is such BS. The first of those last two attempts popped in and out. He basically missed the mark by an inch. If it goes in he's a hero. Some people already made their mind up weeks ago (years ago?) that Fox needs to go and they're just waiting for a chance to pounce on a mistake. If you're going to ignore that he went 11 for 17 in this game, got to the line 10 times, scored 14 points in the fourth quarter to even give us a chance to win and tapped the ball away from Bridges and Hayward three times in the last few minutes and then say that he's not clutch because of two missed free throws then you deserve a last place team. And of course we have to bring up that max contract now every time he makes a mistake, right? We're the Sacramento Kings. 16 years without a playoff game but we're too good for scrubs like Fox. :rolleyes:
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Look not towards Buddy having played 31 minutes despite pretty much sucking after his first eight minutes in the game or the fact that pretty much any King not named Fox or Davis refused to Show up in the 4th quarter (Once again, I reiterate, Fox had 14 of our 24 points in the quarter and TD added six while TT and Buddy each had two a piece and everyone else nothing), it is De’Aaron Fox who singlehandedly lost us this game!
 
Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#334
#334
Livinthedream said:
Just browsing through the comments, but for those defending Fox.....he's gotta hit those free throws. Yes, Charlotte is missing players, but they're the top scoring team in the league, so one could expect a high scoring game. Regardless of anything else, there was an opportunity to win the game and he Fox blew it. There is no defense of that.
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If Marvin Bagley had missed those, you’d probably be singing a different tune.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#335
#335
Livinthedream said:
Just browsing through the comments, but for those defending Fox.....he's gotta hit those free throws. Yes, Charlotte is missing players, but they're the top scoring team in the league, so one could expect a high scoring game. Regardless of anything else, there was an opportunity to win the game and he Fox blew it. There is no defense of that.
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No, you're right. He's our best player, we need him to at the very least send it to OT in that scenario. He blew that opportunity.

What I (and the "Fox defenders (lol) ) are getting pissed at is people using those 2 free throws to further their own preconceived bias that Fox isn't a star, isn't a leader, isn't clutch, blah blah blah. When the reality is the Kings aren't in that position without Fox's performance in the first place. Both things can be true and using the two missed free throws to make sweeping judgements about how bad he is as a franchise player is just flat out dumb and simple-minded.

-Fox had another amazing game

-Fox has to come up clutch and hit those free throws. Blown opportunity as the star player.

Anyone saying that both of these statements aren't true is wrong. Flat out.
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#336
#336
Livinthedream said:
Just browsing through the comments, but for those defending Fox.....he's gotta hit those free throws. Yes, Charlotte is missing players, but they're the top scoring team in the league, so one could expect a high scoring game. Regardless of anything else, there was an opportunity to win the game and he Fox blew it. There is no defense of that.
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Sure there is, it's one game. It happens. The great ones shrug it off.

 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#338
#338
And can't leave out Gentry who:

https://twitter.com/statuses/1469503673193566208


Like what? It'd be one thing if Buddy was nailing 9 3's, but he was playing bad and getting overworked to where it would be pretty hard for him to play good if he wanted to. It's generally not a good idea to overextend a player in the midst of a cold streak.

And I know TD was in some foul trouble, but 22 minutes with short wing depth after Barnes went out is just dumb with how well he's been playing
 
M

mac

All-Star
#340
#340
The_Jamal said:
YEAH BUT DID YOU SEE FOX MISS THOSE 2 FREE THROWS?!?!?!?!??! HUH!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
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Yeah reading the guy's twitter feed I wouldn't put too much stock into any "insight" he offers. Not that it's factually wrong, but pinning poor team defense on Buddy THIS SEASON is very very lazy analysis.

Offensively though, Buddy has been really bad lately.
 
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T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#342
#342
mac said:
Yeah reading the guy's twitter feed I wouldn't put too much stock into any "insight" he offers. Not that it's factually wrong, but pinning poor team defense on Buddy THIS SEASON is very very lazy analysis.

Offensively though, Buddy has been really bad lately.
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Yeah outside of Holmes and Davion, pretty much everyone else has been bad-really suck on defense. Buddy was playing passable defense for sure the first 16-17 games, but his defensive miscues get highlighted right now with Fox and Hali starting to get rolling on the offensive end. Whatever it is, he just hasn't clicked at all with Gentry at the helm after him carrying the offense with Holmes and Barnes the first month of the season.
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#343
#343
I love how people are pointing to the offensive stats of the Kings players and saying how certain players had a good game. These two teams give up the most points in the league, so getting offensive stats was a given. Fox had a 31, 5, 2, 4 line. The numbers look great. But so did Bouknight, who had a 24, 1, 6, 1 line. Problem is Bouknight, who I think will end up being a very good player, rarely plays and is Charlotte's fourth guard.

It's one thing to play an all offense, no defense, 1,000 mile per hour pace if the end result is wins. It's another to do so and end up treadmilling to a back of the lottery spot like the Kings have done over the last few years. Playing a style that leads to more losses than wins is just dumb, bad hoops. Turn the page, Monte.

But TLDR. The post below is more succint:

Rob Perez on Twitter: "neither team celebrating after the final buzzer. nobody know what the hell is going on. some of the dumbest basketball ive seen in a minute." / Twitter
 
B

BillyStrings

G-League
#344
#344
hrdboild said:
This is such BS. The first of those last two attempts popped in and out. He basically missed the mark by an inch. If it goes in he's a hero. Some people already made their mind up weeks ago (years ago?) that Fox needs to go and they're just waiting for a chance to pounce on a mistake. If you're going to ignore that he went 11 for 17 in this game, got to the line 10 times, scored 14 points in the fourth quarter to even give us a chance to win and tapped the ball away from Bridges and Hayward three times in the last few minutes and then say that he's not clutch because of two missed free throws then you deserve a last place team. And of course we have to bring up that max contract now every time he makes a mistake, right? We're the Sacramento Kings. 16 years without a playoff game but we're too good for scrubs like Fox. :rolleyes:
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Other than those free throws, I agree he had a great offensive game. And I’m thrilled that he seems to be getting back to his old ways. But, I’ll say it again, a teams star cannot miss both of those free throws when the game is on the line. Insert any one of the all star guards names in this situation and it doesn’t happen.
To challenge my own bias, I did a little research on clutch. Using Fox’s best season (20/21) he is about league average in clutch and well above league average in garbage time. Haliburton and Barnes far exceed Fox in clutch.
Stop with the nonsense about looking for reasons for him to go. I’ve been rooting this kid on at every step of the way since he was with Kentucky. And I will continue to do so.

http://stats.inpredictable.com/nba/...2021-10-19&todt=2021-12-09&shot=both&dst=plyr
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#345
#345
BillyStrings said:
Other than those free throws, I agree he had a great offensive game. And I’m thrilled that he seems to be getting back to his old ways. But, I’ll say it again, a teams star cannot miss both of those free throws when the game is on the line. Insert any one of the all star guards names in this situation and it doesn’t happen.
To challenge my own bias, I did a little research on clutch. Using Fox’s best season (20/21) he is about league average in clutch and well above league average in garbage time. Haliburton and Barnes far exceed Fox in clutch.
Stop with the nonsense about looking for reasons for him to go. I’ve been rooting this kid on at every step of the way since he was with Kentucky. And I will continue to do so.

http://stats.inpredictable.com/nba/...2021-10-19&todt=2021-12-09&shot=both&dst=plyr
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This is good data. Wasn't aware of it. Thanks for the link.

I believe the data set that proves your point most is in the clutch^2 rankings. Here's Fox's from last year--his best year thus far and the year where some would say he was an elite, top 4 ISO crunch time scorer:

http://stats.inpredictable.com/nba/PlayerClutch.php?pid=1628368&season=2020&team=ALL&po=0&shot=both

In the 20 to 21 season, Fox had 16 opportunities with the game on the line. His eFG was 37.5%. The league average was 40%. Not elite, not even average.

For perspective, here's Hali's 2 opps at a 50% eFG: http://stats.inpredictable.com/nba/PlayerClutch.php?pid=1630169&season=2020&team=ALL&po=0&shot=both

And here's Barnes 9 opps at a 72.2% eFG: http://stats.inpredictable.com/nba/PlayerClutch.php?pid=203084&season=2020&team=ALL&po=0&shot=both
 
steelevt

steelevt

All-Star
#346
#346
kb02 said:
This is good data. Wasn't aware of it. Thanks for the link.

I believe the data set that proves your point most is in the clutch^2 rankings. Here's Fox's from last year--his best year thus far and the year where some would say he was an elite, top 4 ISO crunch time scorer:

http://stats.inpredictable.com/nba/PlayerClutch.php?pid=1628368&season=2020&team=ALL&po=0&shot=both

In the 20 to 21 season, Fox had 16 opportunities with the game on the line. His eFG was 37.5%. The league average was 40%. Not elite, not even average.

For perspective, here's Hali's 2 opps at a 50% eFG: http://stats.inpredictable.com/nba/PlayerClutch.php?pid=1630169&season=2020&team=ALL&po=0&shot=both

And here's Barnes 9 opps at a 72.2% eFG: http://stats.inpredictable.com/nba/PlayerClutch.php?pid=203084&season=2020&team=ALL&po=0&shot=both
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Yet his avg is better than booker, Trae and steph curry at 25%, 25% and 35.7% respectively. Seems like great data to me. Let’s show it to the warriors and trade fox for steph since he ain’t clutch.
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#348
#348
steelevt said:
Yet his avg is better than booker, Trae and steph curry at 25%, 25% and 35.7% respectively. Seems like great data to me. Let’s show it to the warriors and trade fox for steph since he ain’t clutch.
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Have you heard people saying Curry, Trae, and Booker were/are elite, crunch time top 4, ISO players?
 
MizzouKing

MizzouKing

Starter
#349
#349
hrdboild said:
This is such BS. The first of those last two attempts popped in and out. He basically missed the mark by an inch. If it goes in he's a hero. Some people already made their mind up weeks ago (years ago?) that Fox needs to go and they're just waiting for a chance to pounce on a mistake. If you're going to ignore that he went 11 for 17 in this game, got to the line 10 times, scored 14 points in the fourth quarter to even give us a chance to win and tapped the ball away from Bridges and Hayward three times in the last few minutes and then say that he's not clutch because of two missed free throws then you deserve a last place team. And of course we have to bring up that max contract now every time he makes a mistake, right? We're the Sacramento Kings. 16 years without a playoff game but we're too good for scrubs like Fox. :rolleyes:
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PERFECTLY SAID. I'm generally Mr. Congenial, but the level of selective perception around here is staggering. If most of the the dagger throwers knew a quarter of what they pretend to know about basketball and the NBA their posts would look a whole lot different. Easier to yell "Scrub!" and Google a few selected statistics to make their would-be point.
 
B

BillyStrings

G-League
#350
#350
I’ll let you point out where the word “scrub” was used….or anything close to it. Please look back at the totality of the posts. And I’ll have to disagree that the eye test from our message board should be counted on more than data.
 
Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#351
#351
I mean, we're spending all our time arguing about a couple of missed free throws as opposed to the circumstances leading to the free throws, that is to say, the team coughing up a double digit lead mid-way through the third quarter and only managing to get back into the game when two of our players played absolutely out of their minds for the last six minutes while the rest of the team pretty much just stood around and watched.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#352
#352
Tetsujin said:
I mean, we're spending all our time arguing about a couple of missed free throws as opposed to the circumstances leading to the free throws, that is to say, the team coughing up a double digit lead mid-way through the third quarter and only managing to get back into the game when two of our players played absolutely out of their minds for the last six minutes while the rest of the team pretty much just stood around and watched.
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I didn't get to see the 4th quarter. Who played well other than Fox at the end?
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#353
#353
Tetsujin said:
I mean, we're spending all our time arguing about a couple of missed free throws as opposed to the circumstances leading to the free throws, that is to say, the team coughing up a double digit lead mid-way through the third quarter and only managing to get back into the game when two of our players played absolutely out of their minds for the last six minutes while the rest of the team pretty much just stood around and watched.
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Not just the 4th. That’s been the case during the entire duration of the Vlade core. On both sides of the ball.
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#356
#356
BillyStrings said:
I’ll let you point out where the word “scrub” was used….or anything close to it. Please look back at the totality of the posts. And I’ll have to disagree that the eye test from our message board should be counted on more than data.
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The immediate reaction from a lot of people was that Fox can't miss those potentially game-winning free throws because superstars always deliver in the clutch, without exception. It's verifiably not true. If you want to go down a rabbit hole of proving "clutchness" with statistical data, that's your business. I don't feel like a regular season road game against the Hornets is the make-or-break point for Fox's NBA career. I wish we'd won but I'm not any more upset about this loss than any other loss. And I still think the game was truly lost in the first half when we showed no urgency whatsoever and let Charlotte score whenever and from wherever they wanted to. There were other factors but we're not good enough to play defense selectively, it needs to be the whole game and it needs to be everyone not just 2 or 3 players.
 
fansinceday1

fansinceday1

Starter
#359
#359
Reading posts at this site, its pretty well settled that the large majority think Fox is the best player on the kings. Am I wrong there?
Listening to sports radio around sacramento and online, seems most people also consider Fox the best player on the kings.
Regardless of what happened prior to Fox being at the free-throw line, Fox had the chance to put the kings ahead and probably win the game. He went to the line and the highest paid player and the best player on the kings missed both free throws. Couldn't even make 1 to tie and go to overtime. Your best player can't hit free throws to win or tie the game. Personally, I would consider that a pretty big problem. I don't have a dog in this fight. Im just trying to understand the state of talent on the sacramento kings. Personally I would rather have halliburton on my favorite team rather than fox. Fox is decent but he's not a dog. He's got no passion. Give me halliburton everyday of the week. Just my opinion.
 
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