[Game] Kings @ Grizzlies - Friday, April 6 - 5 PT

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#91
It's reality because we've gone through dozens of players and a half a dozen coaches and still use the same excuses for why the team is bad. You would think at some point the players would stop losing games because they're tired or playing down to their competition. The reason why is because they aren't talented enough to win basketball games on a regular basis. It has nothing to do with any armchair psychology about myself and everything to do with people making excuses for the lack of talent we have.
Just to fill out the picture a little more, rhere is not a player on this team who is not a talented basketball player. Now tell me again why you don’t think much of the Kings.

I make no excuses for the Kings and their play. I like our layers, I like their play. I love seeing their improvement. I find that my views on all this stuff seems to allow me to enjoy the Kings more than a lot of others do.. I wish the best for you and I wish you could enjoy the Kings more.
 
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#92
Think it's time to move o
I feel like it takes a particularly strong persecution complex to feel like being asked not to harass other posters is anything like "over policing" but, whatever. I mean, if you want to accuse me of being too pedantic, I'll bee dat, but that's not really 'over policing,' either. I am not going to edit your posts to remove the word 'reality'. I am, however, going to ask you again to stop using it.

The truth is that you're not breaking news, nor are you revealing the secrets of the universe: you're not talking to a bunch of people who don't know that pro wrasslin' is staged, or that the Easter Bunny isn't real. You're not telling these people anything that they don't already know, and for some of them to be like, "Okay, cool; I'm going to cheer, anyway" is not a function of not living in reality. It's a conscious choice that some fans make of, "Alright, this is the reality we find ourselves in. Rather than dwell on the negatives, I'm going to look for things in this to feel good about, wherever I can find them, because the alternative is to be mad about **** that I can't change, anyhow."
I basically said that making up excuses that have no basis is not reality. The entire paragraph that you take exception to is about making up excuses. It's not me coming down on people for cheering for their team.

Your second paragraph is a straw man to make people think that I said that those who choose to cheer for and be happy for their team aren't based in reality and that's simply not true. I don't know who or what that paragraph is in response to but it's certainly not in response to what I said.

I call it like I see it. If Justin Jackson has a good game, I give him props. If he doesn't, I'll critique it. If a player has more bad than good games, they'll get more critique than they'll get compliments. Sometimes I do it just to add analysis to the board on a slow day just to give people something to read about. Sometimes I do it because I just really want to talk about it. Either way it's not fun anymore and it's not because the team sucks, because they've sucked for a long time and I knew they were going to be bad this year anyway so it's not as if it's a surprise. It's no fun because I'm tired of making posts here and having people to respond to me as if I have said something I have not. So I'm out.
 
#93
If someone still think if Kings won this game will move to 5, I can your guys it won't happen
let's suppose Kings won this game, the record will be 25-55, but the record of Orlando is 24-56,
and the rest of two games I can guess both teams will go to lose, so the pick position of Kings will change at the end.
 

hrdboild

Hall of Famer
#94
If someone still think if Kings won this game will move to 5, I can your guys it won't happen
let's suppose Kings won this game, the record will be 25-55, but the record of Orlando is 24-56,
and the rest of two games I can guess both teams will go to lose, so the pick position of Kings will change at the end.
If we'd lost that 1 point game in LA and this 1 point game in Memphis we'd be tied for third overall right now in the lottery seeding. Then it probably goes to a coin flip where we could end up anywhere from 3-6. It absolutely did matter both times though because now we have no chance at the third spot in the lottery or splitting a greater % of the ping pong balls from being tied for 3rd. There's nothing we can do about it. I get rooting for wins regardless if that's what you prefer as a fan. If that's your choice though you don't need to invent reasons to justify it. Winning those two games sucked for our draft positioning. Now we just have to hope we get lucky.
 

hrdboild

Hall of Famer
#95
Think it's time to move o

I basically said that making up excuses that have no basis is not reality. The entire paragraph that you take exception to is about making up excuses. It's not me coming down on people for cheering for their team.

Your second paragraph is a straw man to make people think that I said that those who choose to cheer for and be happy for their team aren't based in reality and that's simply not true. I don't know who or what that paragraph is in response to but it's certainly not in response to what I said.

I call it like I see it. If Justin Jackson has a good game, I give him props. If he doesn't, I'll critique it. If a player has more bad than good games, they'll get more critique than they'll get compliments. Sometimes I do it just to add analysis to the board on a slow day just to give people something to read about. Sometimes I do it because I just really want to talk about it. Either way it's not fun anymore and it's not because the team sucks, because they've sucked for a long time and I knew they were going to be bad this year anyway so it's not as if it's a surprise. It's no fun because I'm tired of making posts here and having people to respond to me as if I have said something I have not. So I'm out.
Don't leave over this ESP47 ... I agree with you. Nothing you said in this thread was unreasonable or insulting. Declaring a certain viewpoint to be "reality" and other people's version of the same to therefore be some version of fantasy might be taken as insulting, but it's not all that different than what's implied every time we express our opinion. It's understood I think that when you use the word "reality" you're implying "my reality" and at least intending to imply "the reality" but whether people agree with that second point or not is going to be up to them. It's rather stupid that this is even an argument in the first place.

After all the nonsense we've been through over the years as fans of this team, for anyone to get upset at you for daring to assert that we should probably have beaten a garbage team by 20 points if we had legitimate NBA talent and therefore winning by 1 point (hurting our own lottery odds in the process) isn't worth celebrating is pretty funny. I wish I could celebrate a win no matter the circumstances but I can't. I'm not even going to get into why I can't for risk of further insulting people inadvertently, but if you're the type of fan who can (speaking generally now) maybe you don't need to kick those of us who can't while we're already down?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#96
Don't leave over this ESP47 ... I agree with you. Nothing you said in this thread was unreasonable or insulting. Declaring a certain viewpoint to be "reality" and other people's version of the same to therefore be some version of fantasy might be taken as insulting, but it's not all that different than what's implied every time we express our opinion. It's understood I think that when you use the word "reality" you're implying "my reality" and at least intending to imply "the reality" but whether people agree with that second point or not is going to be up to them. It's rather stupid that this is even an argument in the first place.

After all the nonsense we've been through over the years as fans of this team, for anyone to get upset at you for daring to assert that we should probably have beaten a garbage team by 20 points if we had legitimate NBA talent and therefore winning by 1 point (hurting our own lottery odds in the process) isn't worth celebrating is pretty funny. I wish I could celebrate a win no matter the circumstances but I can't. I'm not even going to get into why I can't for risk of further insulting people inadvertently, but if you're the type of fan who can (speaking generally now) maybe you don't need to kick those of us who can't while we're already down?
1. That's the whole point in one succinct sentence. Everybody who has been here more than about 3 minutes can sense the tension and even hostility at times between various factions. When someone KNOWS what they say is going to ruffle feathers unnecessarily, why say it?

2. That's kind of a two-way street. Both sides think the other takes potshots and kicks us/them while we/they are down. Look at the number of threads related in one way or another to tanking. Now look at the number of threads positive people have tried to start to voice their outlook. Why do you think I made the game thread "tank discussion" free?

I will be incredibly glad when this is over.
 
#97
I agree, no one should leave the board. there seems to be an increasing number of people deciding to stop posting, not because of their dissapointment with the Kings themselves (ala Brick), but because of their disagrement with other members of the board.

I appreciate all contributions to the content including the ones I disagree with. There are too many important things to argue about to be leaving!

for example, I still think the Memphis win, taken by itself and not in combination with any win prior, will turn out to be inconsenquential to our lottery position. It all depends on dallas/phoenix and sac/houston games.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#98
I agree, no one should leave the board. there seems to be an increasing number of people deciding to stop posting, not because of their dissapointment with the Kings themselves (ala Brick), but because of their disagrement with other members of the board.

I appreciate all contributions to the content including the ones I disagree with. There are too many important things to argue about to be leaving!

for example, I still think the Memphis win, taken by itself and not in combination with any win prior, will turn out to be inconsenquential to our lottery position. It all depends on dallas/phoenix and sac/houston games.
I'm closing the thread, for the simple reason it's gone far astray from the original topic - and won't ever come back - and it was a game thread to begin with.

Hopefully everything will straighten itself out. This season has been more volatile than any I've ever seen before.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#99
I basically said that making up excuses that have no basis is not reality. The entire paragraph that you take exception to is about making up excuses. It's not me coming down on people for cheering for their team.
I think that, when you allege that someone's argument has no basis, you should do a better job of showing your work. You might not think that the "excuses" they're making are good enough, but if you're going to imply that they're fabricated (which I consider to be a subjectively reasonable interpretation of "have no basis," and is, without question, an objectively reasonable interpretation of "making up excuses"), then you should be able to back that up.

Your second paragraph is a straw man to make people think that I said that those who choose to cheer for and be happy for their team aren't based in reality and that's simply not true. I don't know who or what that paragraph is in response to but it's certainly not in response to what I said.
Yes, it is. What you said was:
If excuses like that help give you more hope for the future of the team, that's your prerogative. I'm going to stay firmly planted in reality.
What I wrote was a reasonable reaction to that. If that wasn't what you meant, you should have articulated your feelings better.

I call it like I see it.
Everybody calls it like they see it. The disconnect occurs when there are people on both sides of the issue simultaneously proclaiming that only the other side is being given unrestricted latitude to tell their version of the truth.


Either way it's not fun anymore and it's not because the team sucks, because they've sucked for a long time and I knew they were going to be bad this year anyway so it's not as if it's a surprise. It's no fun because I'm tired of making posts here and having people to respond to me as if I have said something I have not. So I'm out.
And there have been plenty of people who represent the other side of the aisle who have felt similar emotions, and have also left, except that they feel like people who represent your side of the aisle have taken over the board and shouted down and harassed them, instead of the other way around... They usually don't post manifestos about it, though.


EDIT - Looks like another mod closed the thread while I was typing this: I didn't know that before I hit send.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
Mea culpa. I broke an unwritten rule when I stepped on Mr. S£im's toes by closing a thread while he was posting in it. I am reopening the thread. What happens next is in the hands of fate, the Great God Naismith and whomever decides to post further. :)
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
I was going to let this alone, since I didn't see it until after I realized that the thread had been closed but, since it's been re-opened:

... I wish I could celebrate a win no matter the circumstances but I can't. I'm not even going to get into why I can't for risk of further insulting people inadvertently...
If you're legitimately concerned that you can't express your feelings without inadvertently insulting people, perhaps you should reconsider your choice of words?

... but if you're the type of fan who can (speaking generally now) maybe you don't need to kick those of us who can't while we're already down?
And speaking of straw men...
 
If we'd lost that 1 point game in LA and this 1 point game in Memphis we'd be tied for third overall right now in the lottery seeding. Then it probably goes to a coin flip where we could end up anywhere from 3-6. It absolutely did matter both times though because now we have no chance at the third spot in the lottery or splitting a greater % of the ping pong balls from being tied for 3rd. There's nothing we can do about it. I get rooting for wins regardless if that's what you prefer as a fan. If that's your choice though you don't need to invent reasons to justify it. Winning those two games sucked for our draft positioning. Now we just have to hope we get lucky.
"If" we can lose every game, then we will be the first pick position, there is no such "If"
 

hrdboild

Hall of Famer
I was going to let this alone, since I didn't see it until after I realized that the thread had been closed but, since it's been re-opened:

If you're legitimately concerned that you can't express your feelings without inadvertently insulting people, perhaps you should reconsider your choice of words?

And speaking of straw men...
I'm a little worried that what I say is going to be reinterpreted into an insult by somebody because that's just how the Internet works. I'm not worried that what I have to say is actually insulting though because I respect other people enough not to intentionally insult them. I have no control over how my words are interpreted by other people and unfortunately I find myself frustrated to the point of giving up as well after a dozen or so posts that amount to nothing more than my attempt to explain in 20 different ways a point that is just not getting across. I also don't think an unintentional insult is actually an insult. It's a misunderstanding. Ideally we would just address the source of the misunderstanding and move on.

As for the topic at hand, like most people here I'm tired of the tanking argument. It's the same every year in one variation or another. Pro-tank or anti-tank I don't care. It's all good. We can hopefully all share a beer or (non-alcoholic beverage of choice) regardless and laugh about it. I'm aware that most people are just speaking/writing from a position of frustration at this point so I don't take it personally. Whatever your point of view on the issue (speaking generally again) its valid and you have a right to your opinion without being insulted for it. Mostly I just don't think this is worth arguing about. If people want to write 100 threads dedicated to the art of tanking, I don't care. VF has asked to keep the game threads free of talk of tanking which I think is fair. I don't care to litigate the issue any further but I also don't see a lot else to talk about this time of year. And I'm aware that not everyone has been a part of this community as long as we have so the argument is still fresh to some people.

This game more than any other had a particularly polarizing outcome for those who feel passionately about the topic. If I didn't want to hear people bemoaning a close win I wouldn't even read the post game comments in this one. If it bothers people that someone else feels a need to express dissatisfaction I would just ask them why? Do you expect people to pretend they're happy? Do you expect everyone to share the same point of view on everything? Do you expect people to change their mood to a healthier one? If so, the solution there starts with empathy not argument lawyering. People are going to express whatever they want to express. Maybe I'm old-fashioned in this way but I think it's much more productive to let people air their opinion and duke it out so to speak in an intellectual way rather than trying to tiptoe around feelings and stay in the safe arena of "socially acceptable discourse". Especially in this setting. What people say is really just a signifier of what they are thinking. The former has no significance in itself so policing what is and is not acceptable to say is actually counterproductive. It's preventing a healthy and productive exchange of ideas from actually taking place. That exchange of ideas might produce the best possible outcome of any human interaction... Two people with opposing points of view coming to an understanding.

And the real shame is that there's so much effort made to get our own views across and so little effort made to understand other people's views. I don't have a solution or anything and I'm as guilty of this kind of rhetorical myopia as anyone. I just think it's healthy to take a step back and acknowledge when it's happening. I studied philosophy at a University but I don't think it's fair to wield rhetorical skills as a weapon. The end goal is harmony, or at least it should be if we're all coming from a place of mutual respect, and that's really more about listening than speaking.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
I'm a little worried that what I say is going to be reinterpreted into an insult by somebody because that's just how the Internet works. I'm not worried that what I have to say is actually insulting though because I respect other people enough not to intentionally insult them. I have no control over how my words are interpreted by other people and unfortunately I find myself frustrated to the point of giving up as well after a dozen or so posts that amount to nothing more than my attempt to explain in 20 different ways a point that is just not getting across. I also don't think an unintentional insult is actually an insult. It's a misunderstanding. Ideally we would just address the source of the misunderstanding and move on.
And I think that the person who says something that insults another person doesn't get to be the arbiter of whether or not it was an insult, but reasonable people can probably disagree about that. Where I would make the distinction is, if you said something that inadvertently insults someone else, and you didn't intend to be insulting, you should feel comfortable clarifying, without getting defensive. And people who make such a clarification should have a reasonable expectation to be taken at face value, unless their reputation stipulates otherwise. But what seems to happen more often is that someone might inadvertently offend someone else and, rather than make that clarification, they instead double down and insist that the other person is just 'taking it wrong', or whatever, which strikes me as a sub-optimal way to conduct interpersonal relationships.

This game more than any other had a particularly polarizing outcome for those who feel passionately about the topic. If I didn't want to hear people bemoaning a close win I wouldn't even read the post game comments in this one. If it bothers people that someone else feels a need to express dissatisfaction I would just ask them why?
This seems easy enough to explain: like we used to say in the Navy, "It only takes one 'Aw, ****!' to erase one hundred 'Attaboys!'" It's way easier for one or two negative comments to ruin a positive experience than the other way around. That's why @VF21 fights so hard to keep the [Game] threads negativity-free: so that people who want to see the glass as half-full have someplace where they can post and people aren't trying to kill their buzz.

I don't really feel like the opposite concern is an equal and opposite concern, because I don't think that there is a shortage of threads for people to vent their frustrations in, but if enough people want there to also be game-specific threads where they can do that, maybe we can work out a compromise for next season.

Do you expect people to pretend they're happy?
I don't expect anybody to pretend to be something they're not. I just expect posters to let other posters have a good time, if that's what they're doing.

Maybe I'm old-fashioned in this way but I think it's much more productive to let people air their opinion and duke it out so to speak in an intellectual way rather than trying to tiptoe around feelings and stay in the safe arena of "socially acceptable discourse". Especially in this setting. What people say is really just a signifier of what they are thinking. The former has no significance in itself so policing what is and is not acceptable to say is actually counterproductive. It's preventing a healthy and productive exchange of ideas from actually taking place. That exchange of ideas might produce the best possible outcome of any human interaction... Two people with opposing points of view coming to an understanding.
This seems, superficially, like a reasonable position, except that where it breaks down is that the two sides can't agree on what the standard is for a "healthy and productive exchange of ideas," which is why policing what is and is not acceptable is necessary.
 

hrdboild

Hall of Famer
And I think that the person who says something that insults another person doesn't get to be the arbiter of whether or not it was an insult, but reasonable people can probably disagree about that. Where I would make the distinction is, if you said something that inadvertently insults someone else, and you didn't intend to be insulting, you should feel comfortable clarifying, without getting defensive. And people who make such a clarification should have a reasonable expectation to be taken at face value, unless their reputation stipulates otherwise. But what seems to happen more often is that someone might inadvertently offend someone else and, rather than make that clarification, they instead double down and insist that the other person is just 'taking it wrong', or whatever, which strikes me as a sub-optimal way to conduct interpersonal relationships.

This seems easy enough to explain: like we used to say in the Navy, "It only takes one 'Aw, ****!' to erase one hundred 'Attaboys!'" It's way easier for one or two negative comments to ruin a positive experience than the other way around. That's why @VF21 fights so hard to keep the [Game] threads negativity-free: so that people who want to see the glass as half-full have someplace where they can post and people aren't trying to kill their buzz.

I don't really feel like the opposite concern is an equal and opposite concern, because I don't think that there is a shortage of threads for people to vent their frustrations in, but if enough people want there to also be game-specific threads where they can do that, maybe we can work out a compromise for next season.

I don't expect anybody to pretend to be something they're not. I just expect posters to let other posters have a good time, if that's what they're doing.

This seems, superficially, like a reasonable position, except that where it breaks down is that the two sides can't agree on what the standard is for a "healthy and productive exchange of ideas," which is why policing what is and is not acceptable is necessary.
I totally agree with the first part. I try to be mindful that I'm not stepping on other people's toes but I get a little carried away sometimes trying to make a point and forget about that. I'm sure I'm not the only one. The first instinct is often to respond to snark with snark but I find if I read people's comments a second time the meaning shifts slightly and almost always in a way that's less offensive than how I originally read it. Which is why I alluded to heightened emotions. I don't blame people for overreacting in the moment after a particularly frustrating game and letting their emotions seep into their comments. Often it's the close losses that are infuriating but in Bizaro Tank-Land the rules are a little different.

The only part I have a slight disagreement on is that I don't see how people posting "omg this 1 point win is ruining my life" or some variation thereof is preventing anyone else from having a good time. If I'm at a Kings-Lakers game down here at Staples and the Kings win I'm surrounded by a lot of pissed off Laker fans (HA!) but I can confirm that their unhappiness does not ruin my ability to enjoy the win one bit, in fact quite the opposite. I suppose the consistent and pervasive nature of the negativity is kindof a drag but so is losing. If we can't blow off some steam here where we're likely to find comrades in commiseration than where else can we do it? Once tanking season begins it's almost as if this fanboard has merged with the fan board of every other team we're playing. Every win is going to leave half the people unsatisfied and vice versa. This is why I think the draft itself needs to change. Failing that, it's just an unfortunate situation that we're stuck with every year until we become a playoff team.

Maybe there are some that think the negativity is a problem. I just think it's a reflection of how the community is feeling. It will transform into positivity organically as the team situation changes for the better. I got some negative reactions from people earlier in the year because I'm really upset at some of Vlade's decisions as the General Manager and wanted to express that. Is it "overly negative" to express something unflattering about the team? I felt like the reaction to my comments was more negative than anything I had to say. My comments were 100% directed at the basketball situation not the people involved or the fans. The reaction was a lot of unflattering comments about who I am as a person. If this is going to become a place where we have to toe the party line so to speak or risk drawing the ire of the moderators I'd just as soon move on too. I'm not saying that I have ever felt that to be the case but your exchange here with ESP47 is bordering on censorship from my point of view. If using the word "reality" to frame an argument is going to become a no-go zone I have lost perspective on what is or isn't reasonably offensive.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
The only part I have a slight disagreement on is that I don't see how people posting "omg this 1 point win is ruining my life" or some variation thereof is preventing anyone else from having a good time. If I'm at a Kings-Lakers game down here at Staples and the Kings win I'm surrounded by a lot of pissed off Laker fans (HA!) but I can confirm that their unhappiness does not ruin my ability to enjoy the win one bit, in fact quite the opposite.
This, however, fails to take into account the Schadenfreude factor. When you go to a Kings/lakers game, and the Kings win, part of the reason why being surrounded by a bunch of unhappy laker fans does not detract from your unhappiness is because unhappy laker fans actively contribute to the reason why you're happy. That doesn't really apply when you're talking about a message board, where all the people are ostensibly rooting for the same team. I certainly hope that nobody comes here to get their life to other people being unhappy.

Every win is going to leave half the people unsatisfied and vice versa. This is why I think the draft itself needs to change. Failing that, it's just an unfortunate situation that we're stuck with every year until we become a playoff team.
I'm not convinced that it's 50/50, or even necessarily close to that. I think that one side is just louder than the other. But that's neither here nor there, I suppose.

Maybe there are some that think the negativity is a problem.
Maybe? If this were just a 'maybe,' we wouldn't be talking about this.

... I just think it's a reflection of how the community is feeling. It will transform into positivity organically as the team situation changes for the better. I got some negative reactions from people earlier in the year because I'm really upset at some of Vlade's decisions as the General Manager and wanted to express that. Is it "overly negative" to express something unflattering about the team? I felt like the reaction to my comments was more negative than anything I had to say. My comments were 100% directed at the basketball situation not the people involved or the fans. The reaction was a lot of unflattering comments about who I am as a person.
The most fascinating thing to me about moderating this message board for the last year and change, since I abandoned any emotional attachment to the Kings, is how stridently both sides believe that they're the only ones being treated unfairly, how they're the only ones being 'over policed.' I've long been aware that both sides are certain that they're the ones who are right, but it's interesting to take a step back and realize, "Wait, hold up... so both of y'all think y'all are the victims here?"

If this is going to become a place where we have to toe the party line so to speak or risk drawing the ire of the moderators I'd just as soon move on too. I'm not saying that I have ever felt that to be the case but your exchange here with ESP47 is bordering on censorship from my point of view. If using the word "reality" to frame an argument is going to become a no-go zone I have lost perspective on what is or isn't reasonably offensive.
There is a little bit of not seeing the forest for the trees happening here: in the first place, nobody was censored, despite accusations or insinuations to the contrary. He wasn't even warned, he was just asked. Asking somebody to consider a less problematic choice of words is not censorship, nor is it bordering on censorship; that's facile. And, in the second place, to say that people who "make excuses" for why the team might have struggled against supposedly inferior competition are not living in reality (which he actually said, his attempts to walk it back after the fact notwithstanding) is walking right up to the edge of the "don't be a jerk" rule, and waving your hand in front of its face, going "I'm not touching you!" I don't know why you think we should let that slide?

I think that there are some people who feel like, as long as you're not 'yelling' or cursing at other posters, then anything you say ought to be allowed. And yeah, if that's how you feel, this probably isn't the place for you; this board has never been that.
 

hrdboild

Hall of Famer
This, however, fails to take into account the Schadenfreude factor. When you go to a Kings/lakers game, and the Kings win, part of the reason why being surrounded by a bunch of unhappy laker fans does not detract from your unhappiness is because unhappy laker fans actively contribute to the reason why you're happy. That doesn't really apply when you're talking about a message board, where all the people are ostensibly rooting for the same team. I certainly hope that nobody comes here to get their life to other people being unhappy.

I'm not convinced that it's 50/50, or even necessarily close to that. I think that one side is just louder than the other. But that's neither here nor there, I suppose.

Maybe? If this were just a 'maybe,' we wouldn't be talking about this.

The most fascinating thing to me about moderating this message board for the last year and change, since I abandoned any emotional attachment to the Kings, is how stridently both sides believe that they're the only ones being treated unfairly, how they're the only ones being 'over policed.' I've long been aware that both sides are certain that they're the ones who are right, but it's interesting to take a step back and realize, "Wait, hold up... so both of y'all think y'all are the victims here?"

There is a little bit of not seeing the forest for the trees happening here: in the first place, nobody was censored, despite accusations or insinuations to the contrary. He wasn't even warned, he was just asked. Asking somebody to consider a less problematic choice of words is not censorship, nor is it bordering on censorship; that's facile. And, in the second place, to say that people who "make excuses" for why the team might have struggled against supposedly inferior competition are not living in reality (which he actually said, his attempts to walk it back after the fact notwithstanding) is walking right up to the edge of the "don't be a jerk" rule, and waving your hand in front of its face, going "I'm not touching you!" I don't know why you think we should let that slide?

I think that there are some people who feel like, as long as you're not 'yelling' or cursing at other posters, then anything you say ought to be allowed. And yeah, if that's how you feel, this probably isn't the place for you; this board has never been that.
I don't think saying "this is reality" is in any way equivalent to yelling or cursing though. To me that's polite discourse. If you're clever enough to even interpret that as an underhanded insult than you should also be clever enough to see it as a fairly innocuous one. In basketball terms, interpreting ESP47 's comments as violating the board rules is the equivalent of calling a phantom foul on a James Harden drive where the defender doesn't even make contact. And if you're not accusing him of violating board rules, why the "informal request" that he stop? I think if you're weilding moderator privileges you should at least be clear when you're disagreeing as a fan and when you're policing comments for violating the rules.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
I don't think saying "this is reality" is in any way equivalent to yelling or cursing though. To me that's polite discourse. If you're clever enough to even interpret that as an underhanded insult than you should also be clever enough to see it as a fairly innocuous one. In basketball terms, interpreting ESP47 's comments as violating the board rules is the equivalent of calling a phantom foul on a James Harden drive where the defender doesn't even make contact. And if you're not accusing him of violating board rules, why the "informal request" that he stop? I think if you're weilding moderator privileges you should at least be clear when you're disagreeing as a fan and when you're policing comments for violating the rules.
Okay, I'm jumping back in here for a minute.

If he had said "this is reality" once that might be fine. But he - and others - have used it all year as a passive-aggressive way to diminish the feelings of those who felt differently. Whether it was innocuous or not, it was still uncalled for IMHO as a board member who just happens to also be a moderator.

I'll leave it to S£im to respond to the rest of your post, should he choose to do so. Personally though? I'm a bit offended. It's real easy for those who haven't had to do the job to criticize how it's done. We moderators do this without any kind of compensation. We do it because this is a great board with some incredible people that are fans of a team that makes us crazy. This year has been particularly vexing. Imagine trying to herd about 100 cats in the middle of a earthquake while juggling chainsaws and you might get a idea of what it's been like.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
I don't think saying "this is reality" is in any way equivalent to yelling or cursing though. To me that's polite discourse. If you're clever enough to even interpret that as an underhanded insult than you should also be clever enough to see it as a fairly innocuous one. In basketball terms, interpreting ESP47 's comments as violating the board rules is the equivalent of calling a phantom foul on a James Harden drive where the defender doesn't even make contact. And if you're not accusing him of violating board rules, why the "informal request" that he stop? I think if you're weilding moderator privileges you should at least be clear when you're disagreeing as a fan and when you're policing comments for violating the rules.
The thing that you seem to missing and/or refusing to see is that there is a way to be pro-tank without actively insulting people who aren't actively in your camp. In my case, I recognize that losing more games this season could mean more in the long run but I am absolutely glad that the Kings have at least attempted to put a watchable product out on the court while someone of the more cynical teams in the post-Process era trot out absolutely untenable slop for their poor fans to watch. Does that make me unrealistic or detached from "reality"? I'd like to think not but according to some of the rhetoric here, I'd be better served selling off all my cutlery and supergluing a helmet to my head because I'm a stupid dumdum.

We live in a time of loaded rhetoric and absolutism. Everything has to be either THE BEST THING EVER or the WORST THING EVER and anyone ambivalently in the middle is obviously a spineless coward. Speaking as a dude who has been in the semi-public eye at varying points in my life, people of the modern age are quick to shoot verbal arrows without taking a step back to consider the possible effects of their actions beyond the quick burst of catharsis that calling someone you don't agree with a nimrod provides. The moderators of this forum are here both for the sake of the targets and the attackers.
 

hrdboild

Hall of Famer
Okay, I'm jumping back in here for a minute.

If he had said "this is reality" once that might be fine. But he - and others - have used it all year as a passive-aggressive way to diminish the feelings of those who felt differently. Whether it was innocuous or not, it was still uncalled for IMHO as a board member who just happens to also be a moderator.

I'll leave it to S£im to respond to the rest of your post, should he choose to do so. Personally though? I'm a bit offended. It's real easy for those who haven't had to do the job to criticize how it's done. We moderators do this without any kind of compensation. We do it because this is a great board with some incredible people that are fans of a team that makes us crazy. This year has been particularly vexing. Imagine trying to herd about 100 cats in the middle of a earthquake while juggling chainsaws and you might get a idea of what it's been like.
He even offered to take back the "reality" part of the comment though, effectively extending an olive branch and that somehow wasn't enough to just leave it alone. I get the impression that being Pro-tank has become equated to being a malcontent when its really just an attempt to make lemonade out of lemons. Okay we suck, let's draft a superstar and not suck anymore. That's the argument in a nutshell. I think it's a fun way to deal with the stress of losing myself.. Let's make it a game: lose even more. Let's be the best at something! It doesn't need to be cynical, it can also be playful. I draw the line at piling on players. Yeah these guys are young and they make mistakes but they play hard and they're getting better. That's all you can ask for. It's up to management to put together a roster capable of winning more than 30 odd games out of 82.

I get that you're donating your time and its a thankless job. I wouldn't even know how to begin to moderate a message board. Actually that's not entirely true, I've been a moderator before at a different forum quite some time ago. I stumbled into it when I was 19 or 20 and did it for about 5 years though it feels almost like a past life now. My attitude is very "live and let live" though. Unless someone is actually getting personal and actively ignoring warnings to stop I wouldn't intervene. I may want the conversation to go in a particular way and I try to lobby for the big picture as best I can but people still have to choose that perspective for themselves. We're all coming from a similar place in the end even if we he have very different ways of expressing ourselves. I believe that. Can you imagine a world where everyone agrees on everything all the time? To me that's a total nightmare! I'll take the disagreement. It's at least human. Disagreement is healthy. The whole point of democracy is supposed to be that all viewpoints get a voice, a chance to lobby for their side and may the truth win out! If someone is making a poor argument or attempting to substitute for a lack of cognitive vigor with bullying and threats then their punishment is tepid support for their position.

As for the big picture, the entire league is still grappling with this tanking issue and a lot of people getting paid more money than I'll probably make in my lifetime haven't figured it out. I doubt we're going to figure it out here. There's as many different ways to "fan" as there are different people. We've both been members of this community long enough that I consider you a friend. I would never want to intentionally hurt your feelings. At the same time, I think as friends we should be able to have differing viewpoints on an issue without splintering into factions and building a fortress around them so that we never have to change. I don't think it's wrong to root for the team to win and I don't think it's wrong to root for the team to lose. Either way the players get paid the same amount. I'm all for people selecting whichever course of action is going to bring them the most enjoyment. All I'm trying to say here is that bemoaning a close loss/win with somewhat inflammatory language is standard operating procedure for sports fandom. A lot of the behavior that is encouraged in sports stadiums/arenas would be considered obnoxious almost anywhere else. Verbal jabs are actively encouraged as long as they don't cross the line into being mean-spirited. It helps if they're funny. Perhaps ESP47 could have picked a funnier insult. I honestly don't think he/she was intending to insult anyone though, just express an opinion forcefully. In any case were someone to say to me "your version of what is happening on this basketball court is the opposite of reality" I would simply take that as an invitation for a conversation. Actually people do say that to me here all the time! including, probably, all 3 of you at some point or another. Maybe this is getting too metaphysical for a sports related conversation but I think reality is something we construct in our head out of sensory data and inferences and past experience. It's not only understandable that everyone's is a little different, it's inherent to the way our brains work. The truth is an unknowable abstract we can only approach and build a map around by measuring the negative space it displaces. Absolutely my reality is different from everyone else's. That's what makes communication so fascinating! Even words themselves are little approximations of concepts that are often insufficient to express exactly what we mean. Maybe what looks like cynicism and bitterness and in-fighting is really just a group of consciousnesses probing all sides of this unknowable object 'truth' in order to build a more accurate mental map of its contents?
 
Well last game of the year. This season was exhausting for me and may have killed my King fandom. They told us to expect a rebuilding year so I bought in and expected a tough year with the excitement of a top 3 pick. The Kings were well on their way to such a finish at the half way point. However, again they were passed in the last couple months by teams with a longer view of winning.

If Hinkie had the longest view in the room the Kings have the shortest.
 
The last thing I'm going to say is this.

There is an underlying hypocrisy that's been around this board for as long as I can remember. If you want to call me an ass for this you can go right ahead but this is what I see and how I feel about the situation. Anyway, the scenario goes as follows.

Two board members get into a disagreement and Slim enters the fray acting as if he's on a higher moral authority than the poster he disagrees with. He then throws jabs at the poster, gives them an armchair pseudo analysis of their personality faults and then tries his best to make them look stupid while attempting to make himself look like an intellect. It's been going on for years and quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of it. It's not that I can't handle the disagreement, it's the fact that the board and other moderators tolerate this kind of behavior while deeming similar behaviors from other members to be stopped. It's hypocrisy.

VF21 doesn't moderate this way. She basically just says "enough" and that's the end of it. I don't recall Capt. Fact or Warhawk or whoever else ever doing this. There is just one mod here who does this routinely. Did I maybe go a little far with the reality comment? Maybe I did and if I did, then I apologize to John for it. My underlying thought about it was that if teams were so tired late in the year, that teams that needed wins would just bench most of their starters and play fresh G League scrubs because that would be the winning basketball move. Since that doesn't happen, I deemed the excuse not being reality. That is all and if I offended anyone, then I apologize.

With that said, don't sit here and chastise me if you think I'm taking jabs at people and then turn around and "Like" a post from a mod where he is doing the exact same thing. A mod who doesn't even post any Kings content but sure is quick to swoop in and try to make people look stupid whenever he thinks the situation presents itself. Saying that I'm playing the "I'm not touching you game", acting as if I'm telling people that pro rasslin is staged and that the Easter bunny isn't real. Oh and that most people don't post "manifestos" on here. If we wan't to talk about the "I'm not touching you game", holy **** we've got some hypocrisy on our hands here because that's how his posts in this thread are perfectly designed. He's going to want to counteract this by picking things apart sentence by sentence but the gist of most of his responses to me in this thread are designed to try and make me look stupid while still trying to toe the company line. In essence, it's the "I'm not touching you" game.

This type of self serving behavior should not be allowed from a moderator on here. I've seen it gone on for way too long and he has ran off some great posters on here in the past because they didn't toe the company line. I have a lot of respect for the moderators on this board but there isn't a person who has ever graced this board that I have less respect for than Slim. If he just moderated like VF and said "Don't do that", I'd have respect for him. It's his incessant need to try and step on others and talk disrespectfully to them under the guise of "moderating" that I cannot and never will respect. The other posters here shouldn't have to put up with it either.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
I don't think saying "this is reality" is in any way equivalent to yelling or cursing though. To me that's polite discourse. If you're clever enough to even interpret that as an underhanded insult than you should also be clever enough to see it as a fairly innocuous one. In basketball terms, interpreting ESP47 's comments as violating the board rules is the equivalent of calling a phantom foul on a James Harden drive where the defender doesn't even make contact. And if you're not accusing him of violating board rules, why the "informal request" that he stop? I think if you're weilding moderator privileges you should at least be clear when you're disagreeing as a fan and when you're policing comments for violating the rules.
It probably isn't, but the disconnect here is that that's where you appear to believe the line should be. We disagree on that point.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
He even offered to take back the "reality" part of the comment though, effectively extending an olive branch...
No, he didn't. He didn't "offer to take it back," what he said was closer to, "You can remove it, if you want to." The former is a sincere offer to make good, while the latter is just a passive-aggressive way to manipulate us into allowing him to claim that he was censored.

I get that you're donating your time and its a thankless job. I wouldn't even know how to begin to moderate a message board. Actually that's not entirely true, I've been a moderator before at a different forum quite some time ago. I stumbled into it when I was 19 or 20 and did it for about 5 years though it feels almost like a past life now. My attitude is very "live and let live" though. Unless someone is actually getting personal and actively ignoring warnings to stop I wouldn't intervene. I may want the conversation to go in a particular way and I try to lobby for the big picture as best I can but people still have to choose that perspective for themselves. We're all coming from a similar place in the end even if we he have very different ways of expressing ourselves. I believe that. Can you imagine a world where everyone agrees on everything all the time? To me that's a total nightmare! I'll take the disagreement. It's at least human. Disagreement is healthy. The whole point of democracy is supposed to be that all viewpoints get a voice, a chance to lobby for their side and may the truth win out! If someone is making a poor argument or attempting to substitute for a lack of cognitive vigor with bullying and threats then their punishment is tepid support for their position.
That's very idyllic, but it doesn't usually work out that way, in practice. As a thought exercise, sure. In a controlled, sterile environment like a classroom, maybe. When you're dealing with other peoples' real emotions? Not really. Where you want the line to be drawn becomes problematic because it favors people who prefer an unregulated style of debate, which we have found to be antithetical to the silent majority of posters who come here. I don't think it's a coincidence that, the more a vocal minority have tried to steer this place towards being like other online communities, the fewer people have been willing offer their voices.

You think that we're all coming from a similar place, but we're really not. Like I said a couple months ago, there's nothing rational about sports fandom, nothing whatsoever. Every single one of us comes into this enterprise living in houses that are built on unstable foundations. And none of those foundations are unstable in quite the same way. Just like when it comes to things outside of sports, we all come into this with different experiences which inform how we consume sports-as-entertainment: we aren't all coming from the same place, and we aren't all in this to get the same thing out of it.

And you're creating something of a false dilemma when saying 'disagreement is healthy.' Again, in a vacuum, sure, but stepping away from sports and looking around at how disagreements tend to be transacted about issues that actually affect people's lives should prove to you that that's not true; Disagreement isn't a sterile, value-free concept, so trying to frame this as "You guys don't want to allow dissenting opinions here" is reductive and specious. I don't think that you're being deliberately disingenuous; I think that you're being sincere about what you've been communicating here, and I can see where you're coming from. I just don't think that we're going to be able to come to a compromise that you find satisfactory.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
The last thing I'm going to say is this.

There is an underlying hypocrisy that's been around this board for as long as I can remember. If you want to call me an ass for this you can go right ahead but this is what I see and how I feel about the situation. Anyway, the scenario goes as follows.

Two board members get into a disagreement and Slim enters the fray acting as if he's on a higher moral authority than the poster he disagrees with. He then throws jabs at the poster, gives them an armchair pseudo analysis of their personality faults and then tries his best to make them look stupid while attempting to make himself look like an intellect. It's been going on for years and quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of it. It's not that I can't handle the disagreement, it's the fact that the board and other moderators tolerate this kind of behavior while deeming similar behaviors from other members to be stopped. It's hypocrisy.

VF21 doesn't moderate this way. She basically just says "enough" and that's the end of it. I don't recall Capt. Fact or Warhawk or whoever else ever doing this. There is just one mod here who does this routinely. Did I maybe go a little far with the reality comment? Maybe I did and if I did, then I apologize to John for it. My underlying thought about it was that if teams were so tired late in the year, that teams that needed wins would just bench most of their starters and play fresh G League scrubs because that would be the winning basketball move. Since that doesn't happen, I deemed the excuse not being reality. That is all and if I offended anyone, then I apologize.

With that said, don't sit here and chastise me if you think I'm taking jabs at people and then turn around and "Like" a post from a mod where he is doing the exact same thing. A mod who doesn't even post any Kings content but sure is quick to swoop in and try to make people look stupid whenever he thinks the situation presents itself. Saying that I'm playing the "I'm not touching you game", acting as if I'm telling people that pro rasslin is staged and that the Easter bunny isn't real. Oh and that most people don't post "manifestos" on here. If we wan't to talk about the "I'm not touching you game", holy **** we've got some hypocrisy on our hands here because that's how his posts in this thread are perfectly designed. He's going to want to counteract this by picking things apart sentence by sentence but the gist of most of his responses to me in this thread are designed to try and make me look stupid while still trying to toe the company line. In essence, it's the "I'm not touching you" game.

This type of self serving behavior should not be allowed from a moderator on here. I've seen it gone on for way too long and he has ran off some great posters on here in the past because they didn't toe the company line. I have a lot of respect for the moderators on this board but there isn't a person who has ever graced this board that I have less respect for than Slim. If he just moderated like VF and said "Don't do that", I'd have respect for him. It's his incessant need to try and step on others and talk disrespectfully to them under the guise of "moderating" that I cannot and never will respect. The other posters here shouldn't have to put up with it either.
I'm just going to say this in response, and then you can have the last word, if you want it: the only popular moderator is an inactive one. There isn't a moderator on this message board that isn't on somebody's **** list and, if you're actively doing your job, you're usually on multiple people's **** list.
 
I'm just going to say this in response, and then you can have the last word, if you want it: the only popular moderator is an inactive one. There isn't a moderator on this message board that isn't on somebody's **** list and, if you're actively doing your job, you're usually on multiple people's **** list.
Hate to tell you how to mod but why don't you PM ESP47 instead of letting it all play out on this thread
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
Hate to tell you how to mod but why don't you PM ESP47 instead of letting it all play out on this thread
Well, for one thing, because I'm not modding right now, I'm just posting: I haven't taken any moderator action at any point in this thread. For another, I generally prefer to address things publicly that were started in public, unless I have to take moderator action.
 

hrdboild

Hall of Famer
No, he didn't. He didn't "offer to take it back," what he said was closer to, "You can remove it, if you want to." The former is a sincere offer to make good, while the latter is just a passive-aggressive way to manipulate us into allowing him to claim that he was censored.

That's very idyllic, but it doesn't usually work out that way, in practice. As a thought exercise, sure. In a controlled, sterile environment like a classroom, maybe. When you're dealing with other peoples' real emotions? Not really. Where you want the line to be drawn becomes problematic because it favors people who prefer an unregulated style of debate, which we have found to be antithetical to the silent majority of posters who come here. I don't think it's a coincidence that, the more a vocal minority have tried to steer this place towards being like other online communities, the fewer people have been willing offer their voices.

You think that we're all coming from a similar place, but we're really not. Like I said a couple months ago, there's nothing rational about sports fandom, nothing whatsoever. Every single one of us comes into this enterprise living in houses that are built on unstable foundations. And none of those foundations are unstable in quite the same way. Just like when it comes to things outside of sports, we all come into this with different experiences which inform how we consume sports-as-entertainment: we aren't all coming from the same place, and we aren't all in this to get the same thing out of it.

And you're creating something of a false dilemma when saying 'disagreement is healthy.' Again, in a vacuum, sure, but stepping away from sports and looking around at how disagreements tend to be transacted about issues that actually affect people's lives should prove to you that that's not true; Disagreement isn't a sterile, value-free concept, so trying to frame this as "You guys don't want to allow dissenting opinions here" is reductive and specious. I don't think that you're being deliberately disingenuous; I think that you're being sincere about what you've been communicating here, and I can see where you're coming from. I just don't think that we're going to be able to come to a compromise that you find satisfactory.
I think I'm looking at this from a more distant viewpoint than you are. We might not be coming to this message board from the same place but as human beings we all have more or less the same basic interests. We have biological needs that need to be met, we have emotional needs some of which are similar and some of which are very different. We have goals for ourselves and opinions about other people. The frustrations and preoccupations in our lives are almost certainly very different but we all have them in some form. Obviously we have different backgrounds and experiences which inform who we are but I think there's a lot more overlap there than there might superficially appear to be.

This thread alone I think is evidence that disagreement can be productive. I could have remained in the "silent majority" on this one and ignored some comments that had nothing to do with me and my disagreement with the way that discussion occurred would have gone unaccounted for. You wouldn't have had an opportunity to clarify your perspective and ESP47 wouldn't have gotten a chance to answer back with his feedback. I only responded in the first place because I think ESP47 has been a positive contributor in this community and I didn't want him to simply leave because he felt like his viewpoint wasn't welcome here. I also don't know if you're aware that as an authority figure on this board, whether you are actively moderating or not, sometimes your comments come across with the authority of an implied ultimatum and that can stifle productive conversation too. I appreciate you, VF21, and Tetsujin taking the time to clarify your perspective on trying to moderate this board though. I'm sure you all see much more of the overall situation here than I do. And I do hear a lot of what you're saying and it's made me rethink a bit how I frame my comments and whether my attempts to "clarify" are more about clarity or being argumentative. So look at all the good that came out of this particular disagreement!

I'll go further than that though... Pain is a healthy and normal part of life. It's difficult for me to consider examples without getting into arenas that I know aren't really appropriate for this context. But my point is avoiding pain or disagreement or conflict can be more harmful than just addressing it and finding out what it means. Tetsujin brought up a good point about rhetorical absolutism eroding our ability to communicate as the kind of instant "analysis" facilitated via social media platforms has become the norm. It's easy when you can hide behind a user name and an avatar to forget that we're addressing other people with our comments not just a jumble of pixels. There's an instinct culture-wide right now to remove and marginalize offending points of view or treat them as unwelcome in other ways (the ever popular group chastisement for instance). I'd much rather we talk about what we disagree on then see those things settled in other ways.

Maybe this is all a little outside the scope of this board. It's not even about the tanking argument anymore as I've adopted a position of agnosticism on that issue. I fully support fans at all points on the spectrum with that one. It's hard enough to remain a Kings fan when we've been adopted as the default punchline in every NBA related joke (At the bottom of this article for example, to cite just one of many). My feeling is that anyone who wants to call themselves a Kings fan should be welcome to express themselves here. I think that's what you're after too in your own way.

ESP47, I hope you feel welcome to stick around and continue contributing your insights about the draft and the young players on this team. Whether we agree on everything or nothing, we're all still Kings fans somehow. That should count for something.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
... I also don't know if you're aware that as an authority figure on this board, whether you are actively moderating or not, sometimes your comments come across with the authority of an implied ultimatum and that can stifle productive conversation too.
I am aware that some people feel this way, and I recognize those feelings as valid, but that they feel that way is largely out of my control. For the people who feel that way, virtually anything that I post about anything would be seen as me posting with the authority of a mod: if I say I like pineapple on pizza, I'm saying it with the authority of a mod. But the thing is, all I'm doing is being my authentic self: I have (or had, before the crash) counterfactual evidence proving that I'm the same poster now that I was before I became a mod. I am, indeed, acutely aware of how some people perceive the people who do this job: that's why, the first time it was offered to me, I turned it down. When the Site Owner asked me again, a year later, after another mod stepped down, I told him that I would only accept on the condition that I didn't have to change who I was.

I get that some people are hardwired to not be able to separate the person from the authority they wield. And, again, I recognize those feelings as valid. But, since I don't have separate accounts for "Slim the guy," and "Slim the mod," and since there's no way to toggle my Staff Member status on and off when I'm not actively fulfilling my role as a mod, that leaves me with the options of stop being my authentic self, or stop posting. I don't find either of those options to be tenable. The best solution that I've been able to come up with is color-coding when I'm doing mod stuff, so people have a visible sight indicator to tell the difference.

I'll go further than that though... Pain is a healthy and normal part of life. It's difficult for me to consider examples without getting into arenas that I know aren't really appropriate for this context. But my point is avoiding pain or disagreement or conflict can be more harmful than just addressing it and finding out what it means. Tetsujin brought up a good point about rhetorical absolutism eroding our ability to communicate as the kind of instant "analysis" facilitated via social media platforms has become the norm.
Again, I see where you're coming from with this perspective, and I don't entirely disagree, but I think that it's reductive to a level that we don't really have the luxury of being. I would consider the notion that we're trying to legislate pain away from the message board to be a gross mischaracterization but, other than that, we don't really disagree on principle. The rest of the Staff and I also want to encourage healthy and productive discussion, which allows room for disagreement. Unfortunately, the disconnect continues to be over where some posters think the line should be drawn, in terms of what the standard for discourse should be. And, at some point, peace is going to have to be made, because the line is where it is.

This message board has soldiered on when every other Kings-centered message board that started at or around the same time has withered and died (That's not even hyperbole. Literally every one: KingsTalk is dead. Bleacher Mob is dead. Graffiti Board is dead. RealGM I don't count as a Kings board, since their Kings forum is just a subset of a much larger network of forums. All others came much later). We've persisted because (we believe) the Site Owner carved out his corner of the internet and declared, "This is the kind of message board that we're going to be, and we want to encourage open debate and discussion, but within these parameters," and has remained true to that ethos for nearly twenty years. So it's not that we discourage dissenting opinions; you just might not be able to frame your dissent in the same way that you would on Reddit, or STR, or CDT, or RealGM. We're not like those places; we tend to consider that to be a net positive.

In any case, I too have appreciated the mature exchange of ideas throughout this discussion. It's been refreshing to break up the ennui, and it's not like there's been anything going on with the Kings more interesting to talk about lately.
 
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