Kings discussing trade for Kanter?- Woj

#91
Bottom line is we need rebounding and we need post scoring outside of a rookie. Kanter would bring both. I cringe every time I see kosta at high post with the ball looking deer I head lights. Also when Willie puts his back to guy and tries to work the post. It’s horrible Willie can catch lobs at least but that’s it.
I don't think the positives Kanter brings from scoring and rebounding outweight the negatives he brings on the defensive end. I read up on some stats on another site and it seems like the Knicks are much better when any big man other than him is on the court.

I cringe when Kosta is at the high post as well but I don't blame Kosta for that because that's on the coach there.
 
#93
Forget Kanter with Dirk's farewell tour the Mavs have decided to sacrifice Maxi Kleber playing time the guy is a super defender (1.2bpg in 18 mins) and when not forced to shoot 3's in the Mav's offense can really finish well around the rim, he's excellent in switches as well.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#94
while Kanter is a traffic cone on defense, he would provide some toughness and much needed rebounding in his Kosta role. If the Kings were to trade for him it would be a trial run to see if he can help the team and if not, just let him walk in the off season.
 
#95
He is most effective in the high post. He is actually a prolific passer for center out of the high post. Low turnovers as well. Basically a good ball movers. From the high post, he also drives a lot to the basket, though with low FG% and decent foul drawing rate.
https://stats.nba.com/players/elbow...H_PASSES*G*1.5&sort=ELBOW_TOUCH_AST_PCT&dir=1

If there is an efficient low post finisher then WCS would stick to moving the ball and occasionally does everything else. Contrary to a the popular opinion, WCS offensive skill set is quite diverse. He can spot up a bit, work in the low post a bit, and of course very good roller. He can't be featured on offense because his touch is mediocre. Joerger's halfcourt offense needs an efficient low post finisher. Since Bagley is injured, every one is taking on more responsibility and out of the comfort zone much.

Here is a a very good link from some guy who took last year's data and comprised into a very impressive data base, "Defining Offensive Role By Play Type." Look for WCS. He is under "Bigs with Skilled Everywhere."
https://public.tableau.com/profile/...me/PlaytypeDatabyOffensiveRoles-2017-18/Roles

There is a reason why he has the highest offensive rating for the team. Not only he is great in transition offense, he is also perfectly functional in Joerger's halft court offense as a high post facilitator.

Man I forgot this is a Kanter thread.
Sorry but this is nonsense. It is easy misinterpret stats and go data mining for conclusions you seek. It is laughable to say Willie is a prolific passer. He is a cautious passer which has its merits and accounts for assist to turnover rate, same as the case with Jackson. Among other things to be a prolific passer you need to be able to throw baseball passes, to cup the ball and whip it through traffic. You need to be able to make quick precise reads. His mind-body connection does not process at an optimal rate. Do you see Willie throwing baseball passes, palming the ball like a grapefruit and threading the needle? C-Webb did this. Boogie did this (of course he was too careless too). Giles shows incredible potential in this regard. Willie is nowhere close. He will throw a nice interior bounce pass now and again and he will make the simple pass. That's not prolific. To be a prolific passer you have to draw attention and be an offensive threat. Why do you think D-Fox assists soared this year and Lonzo did not? One can attract defense and a second defender and one cannot . It is the same thing with Willie. He's not causing gravity to open up the floor for his teammates.

Your other statement that I bolded is inaccurate too. A diverse offense skill set would be reflected in scoring efficiency (TS%). His scoring efficiency is 53%. That is poor for a guy who gets so many baskets served on a platter. He is dared to score in iso situations and can't do it. 78% of his baskets are assisted. I estimate that he shoots about 20% FGs when he tries to take his man one-on-one. 4 out of 5 baskets are with the help of a teammate where he just needs to catch and dunk. Being a formidable lob target is a great weapon, it is underrated, but this is the extent of his "diverse offensive skill". He has good quickness but it is difficult to exploit his quickness advantage because he lacks touch. Quickness and power are a devastating combination (think LeBron). Quickness and touch are devastating too (think Kevin Durant). Willie has the quickness but he lacks the power and the touch.

The link you referenced is not impressive. How many games has the author seen Willie play? Regrettably I have seen them all. :eek: . The main reason we are 10th in the playoffs and not 5th or 6th is because of Willie. We would have at least 5 more wins if he did not consistently let us down. He has led us to the 5th worst defense and 5th worst rebounding. The center is the anchor to your defense. He is not a good anchor minus a few flashes here and there. He could offset this to a degree if he was a dynamic offense player but he looks good primarily when his teammates make him look good. There is one way to settle the debate among the very small contingent of fans that support Willie. If Willie is the player a small minority contend there should be a rumor with his name in it. In other words a team makes an overture to acquiring him with the intent to re-sign him. If he has "all the tools" as I have heard some say 1 team out of 29 should express some interest that may get leaked. I don't think those rumors are forthcoming. I would love to be wrong and for example hear that the Pistons (Drummond) or Wizards (Porter) have interest in trading for Willie. There are dumb GMs out there but unfortunately for our sake I don't think they are that dumb.
 
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#96
Yeah I have a hard time believing any "sweetener" needs to be thrown in, it's just shuffling people neither team has a need for. I'm fine giving it a go, and I'm fine if it facilitates another move. Hell I'd even consider letting them throw in Hezonja to save even more money. But even if we gave them the 60th pick next year I'd get a little irked if Kanter was all we got back.
Hezonja and Kanter both lost their starting spots on one of the worst teams in the east. Yeah we better not throw in any sweeteners
 
#97
Yeah I have a hard time believing any "sweetener" needs to be thrown in, it's just shuffling people neither team has a need for.
The way I see it Kanter takes all of Koufos minutes. He's an upgrade that would get us that much closer to the 8th spot. The way you have to look at it too is that Kanter gets deep post position. What that does is creates space for our shooters because the wings and guard have to drop low to help and it just spaces out the floor better. Our shooters will get even more open!

Also, I think we have around 6 second round picks in the next 3 years. 2nd round picks are almost meaningless with where we are as a team. We don't necessarily want to get younger or add more rookies. We can definitely throw in a "sweetener" in this regard and not miss it. It is more important we send out Koufos with Z-Bo simultaneously to preserve our cap space for other trades.
 
#98
The way I see it Kanter takes all of Koufos minutes. He's an upgrade that would get us that much closer to the 8th spot. The way you have to look at it too is that Kanter gets deep post position. What that does is creates space for our shooters because the wings and guard have to drop low to help and it just spaces out the floor better. Our shooters will get even more open!

Also, I think we have around 6 second round picks in the next 3 years. 2nd round picks are almost meaningless with where we are as a team. We don't necessarily want to get younger or add more rookies. We can definitely throw in a "sweetener" in this regard and not miss it. It is more important we send out Koufos with Z-Bo simultaneously to preserve our cap space for other trades.
Regardless of who it makes better, we are doing the Knicks a favor if this trade goes through.
 
#99
Kanter won’t move the needle.
Get the Kings closer to a playoff spot?

Who are they catching? Hoping for a Lakers collapse. I can guarantee they aren’t catching the Top 7, barring injury.

Too many All Stars and Vet Coaching.

Instead of the Kings looking for a solid 3 and Rim protector. Kings are reaching here.

Thinking that adding Kanter gives them 4-5
More wins? I have seen Kanter play a lot .

NBA League Pass
He’s a stat hog. Besides the fact most of his offense comes when the game is already decided and second team.
 
Instead of the Kings looking for a solid 3 and Rim protector. Kings are reaching here.
If he comes for Z-Bo and nothing else, then it's not even anything but taking a flyer on a guy. But if he proves his worth, that would give us potential to include WCS in a trade for this 3. Who else are we going to move for this player? Willie is the only person of value we could move that wouldn't cause fans to have a conniption fit but we'd need a replacement.
 
The trade as we know it is essentially Randolph for Kanter. A guy who can't play for one who can. Both are expiring contracts. Not even sure what the debate is. We lose nothing. Biggest issue is that coach will have to figure out some minutes distribution. KK doesn't play. There. Problem solved.

Unless someone sees something I don't, NY fans are the ones who should be questioning this.
 
The trade as we know it is essentially Randolph for Kanter. A guy who can't play for one who can. Both are expiring contracts. Not even sure what the debate is. We lose nothing. Biggest issue is that coach will have to figure out some minutes distribution. KK doesn't play. There. Problem solved.

Unless someone sees something I don't, NY fans are the ones who should be questioning this.
The issue is Knicks want to save salary and kings want to save capspace. I think if both were ok with a straight zbo/Kanter trade it would have been done. But kings want to add another ender so we can keep close to $10 million in cap space and make another move, possibly for a non rental sf.
 
Sorry but this is nonsense. It is easy misinterpret stats and go data mining for conclusions you seek. It is laughable to say Willie is a prolific passer. He is a cautious passer which has its merits and accounts for assist to turnover rate, same as the case with Jackson. Among other things to be a prolific passer you need to be able to throw baseball passes, to cup the ball and whip it through traffic. You need to be able to make quick precise reads. His mind-body connection does not process at an optimal rate. Do you see Willie throwing baseball passes, palming the ball like a grapefruit and threading the needle? C-Webb did this. Boogie did this (of course he was too careless too). Giles shows incredible potential in this regard. Willie is nowhere close. He will throw a nice interior bounce pass now and again and he will make the simple pass. That's not prolific. To be a prolific passer you have to draw attention and be an offensive threat. Why do you think D-Fox assists soared this year and Lonzo did not? One can attract defense and a second defender and one cannot . It is the same thing with Willie. He's not causing gravity to open up the floor for his teammates.

Your other statement that I bolded is inaccurate too. A diverse offense skill set would be reflected in scoring efficiency (TS%). His scoring efficiency is 53%. That is poor for a guy who gets so many baskets served on a platter. He is dared to score in iso situations and can't do it. 78% of his baskets are assisted. I estimate that he shoots about 20% FGs when he tries to take his man one-on-one. 4 out of 5 baskets are with the help of a teammate where he just needs to catch and dunk. Being a formidable lob target is a great weapon, it is underrated, but this is the extent of his "diverse offensive skill". He has good quickness but it is difficult to exploit his quickness advantage because he lacks touch. Quickness and power are a devastating combination (think LeBron). Quickness and touch are devastating too (think Kevin Durant). Willie has the quickness but he lacks the power and the touch.

The link you referenced is not impressive. How many games has the author seen Willie play? Regrettably I have seen them all. :eek: . The main reason we are 10th in the playoffs and not 5th or 6th is because of Willie. We would have at least 5 more wins if he did not consistently let us down. He has led us to the 5th worst defense and 5th worst rebounding. The center is the anchor to your defense. He is not a good anchor minus a few flashes here and there. He could offset this to a degree if he was a dynamic offense player but he looks good primarily when his teammates make him look good. There is one way to settle the debate among the very small contingent of fans that support Willie. If Willie is the player a small minority contend there should be a rumor with his name in it. In other words a team makes an overture to acquiring him with the intent to re-sign him. If he has "all the tools" as I have heard some say 1 team out of 29 should express some interest that may get leaked. I don't think those rumors are forthcoming. I would love to be wrong and for example hear that the Pistons (Drummond) or Wizards (Porter) have interest in trading for Willie. There are dumb GMs out there but unfortunately for our sake I don't think they are that dumb.
Lol. You can't compare WCS to Jackson, or Fox or Ball. These guys are not centers and they don't operate out of the high post.

Almost every team has a big guy working in the high post in some kind of capacity, screening, scoring, passing or a combination of those. Out of the high post, WCS makes 3.6 passed per game, that ranks 6th among centers. The prodigious Jokic makes the same 3.6 passes. And while Jokic has 28% assist rate, WCS is not too shabby at 22%. Giles has potential there; he makes 1.9 passes with a 19% assist rate. Not as good as WCS but Giles' potential is more; he maybe better in the future but right now he is not. WCS and Jokic are the only 2 centers in the top 10 regarding passes made as well as assist rate out of the high post, so that qualifies WCS as prolific passer out of the high post.

Ok watching every Kings game is not impressive. I'm sure there is a good number of people here do that. Besides, the mind is biased; it can't process information fast enough during games so it selectively remember according to its prejudice. Unless you have photographic memory and you can process every single play right away, otherwise just watching is not good enough.

Now if you tell me you have watched a game 30 times then I'll be very impressed. Because then I'll know that you really know what you talk about.
 
It would be very anticlimatic if we used our valuable cap space to get Kanter instead of a real asset.

Kanter probably isnt an answer to anything, his defense is horrible at a position where defense is the most valuable skill. That makes him a net negative player. Instead of Kanter we should rather just shop Willy to get even something for him (part of a Porter trade?) and just play Bagley as our center. Bagley is our center of the future and that means Willy wont get or shouldnt get any significant contract extension from us.
 
Are we even going to use are cap space this season? I want to use it in a trade to try and make the playoffs and maybe even get up side down on it.
We have not been in this situation for awhile and I have hope that a really good free agent would come here in the off season but I kinda doubt it.

Kanter why not I say as unless something changes in the deal you get a player who will play for someone who’s not going to. I look at it like having Zebo (I really like him) and our cap space as the same thing.

The teams out there know we are going to try and do something so if we just wait a couple of more weeks we may get what we want before their opportunity ends at the trade deadline.
 
Lol. You can't compare WCS to Jackson, or Fox or Ball. These guys are not centers and they don't operate out of the high post.

Almost every team has a big guy working in the high post in some kind of capacity, screening, scoring, passing or a combination of those. Out of the high post, WCS makes 3.6 passed per game, that ranks 6th among centers. The prodigious Jokic makes the same 3.6 passes. And while Jokic has 28% assist rate, WCS is not too shabby at 22%. Giles has potential there; he makes 1.9 passes with a 19% assist rate. Not as good as WCS but Giles' potential is more; he maybe better in the future but right now he is not. WCS and Jokic are the only 2 centers in the top 10 regarding passes made as well as assist rate out of the high post, so that qualifies WCS as prolific passer out of the high post.

Ok watching every Kings game is not impressive. I'm sure there is a good number of people here do that. Besides, the mind is biased; it can't process information fast enough during games so it selectively remember according to its prejudice. Unless you have photographic memory and you can process every single play right away, otherwise just watching is not good enough.

Now if you tell me you have watched a game 30 times then I'll be very impressed. Because then I'll know that you really know what you talk about.
I’ve watched all games (I have league pass and can watch the replays at any time), and WCS is a mediocre passer. I’m not sure what stat you pulled there for WCS and Jokic, but it’s not telling and very misleading. Jokic averages 7.5 assists and WCS less than 3. So other than the assist rate stat you pulled which doesn’t reconcile with the actual assists, WCS and Jokic are not similar at all. Jokic is an elite passer and the best passing centers since Divac/Sabonis. So please, let’s not even compare the 2.

Giles is a much better passer than WCS, that should be no debate.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
It seems that usually these rumored trades never happen. It's the non-rumored trades that do seem to happen. I'm just wondering if NY is trying to get Kanter's trade value up and that's why the publicity.

There's such a large group of teams vying for the playoffs in the West that it would seem to generate a lot of trades. Also, there are the dumpster fire tank teams that will get into the action, but there always seems to be that group. With the emergence of Jackson, it's going to help the Kings in negotiating any trades for the 3 position because they'll be negotiating more from a position of strength. The Kings are holding their water, just like in FA where they picked up some bargains. It wouldn't surprise if they do something at the 11th hour prior to the deadline. I really think they'll go with whatever gives them the most value. If they can get a legit player or two for a reasonable value without sacrificing their core, they'll do it. But if that's not available, they'll go for 1st round pick in 2019.
 
It seems that usually these rumored trades never happen. It's the non-rumored trades that do seem to happen. I'm just wondering if NY is trying to get Kanter's trade value up and that's why the publicity.
This trade rumor also helps the Kings increase their value for their cap space. ;)

If a team like Washington is just waiting around thinking that the Kings cap space will be around until the deadline, this may force them to speed up their timetable to blow up the team.

If the Kings make this trade Kanter-ZBo trade straight up, Washington and every team in the Luxury Tax is pretty much stuck and has no where to go to get under the Luxury Tax.
 
If we can get him for Z-Bo and either Ben or KK... It's a no brainer. We'd end up with the best player in the trade and our cap space would be a wash. Our terrible rebounding has cost us many games this season and this dude gets after it. Also, to those bringing up his defense, keep in mind... if he could defend as good as he can rebound, he'd cost us a hell of a lot more.
 
Who would you play in tandem with Kanter to improve defense? Ok he might suck as an iso defender, but there's 4 other players to help him out
 
I say NO to this deal and fortunately I don't think it's going to happen anyways.

The Kings need to just stay the course and continue building and developing their young core of Fox, Bagley, Giles (and Buddy + Bogi who are not quite so young). If they make the playoffs this year great, but if they don't no big deal. The goal for this season has already been accomplished in that the team got a lot better and the young players are developing.

If Willie needs traded because they don't plan on resigning him then maybe you can afford to bring Kanter in.

However if Willie stays and Kanter comes in too......... he's absolutely taking minutes away from Bagley and Giles. Giles will not see the court in meaningful minutes if Willie, Kanter, Bagley are all on the team.

One of the mistakes that starved franchises often make when they start to sniff the playoffs is they begin making moves solely for the present that hurt their future. The long term success of the Kings depends on the growth of Bagley and Giles. Anything right now that stifles their growth is being short-sighted and impatient.
 
The trade as we know it is essentially Randolph for Kanter. A guy who can't play for one who can. Both are expiring contracts. Not even sure what the debate is. We lose nothing. Biggest issue is that coach will have to figure out some minutes distribution. KK doesn't play. There. Problem solved.

Unless someone sees something I don't, NY fans are the ones who should be questioning this.
A lot of the analytics say Kanter plays losing basketball so if that's the case, you'd be a lot better off paying ZBo because at least he is guaranteed not to lose you any games in his current situation.

Sometimes the best move to make is no move and this may be one of those cases. If you replace him with Kosta, he brings more scoring and just slightly better rebounding but he brings in way worse defense. We all know the problem with the Kings isn't with their scoring, it's their defense and rebounding. Kosta grabs about 13 rebounds per36 and Kanter about 15. I don't think that plus the added scoring punch he brings is enough to make up for the fact that he's about the worst defensive center in the league. Remember.....PapaG put up a double double against this guy.
 
Who would you play in tandem with Kanter to improve defense? Ok he might suck as an iso defender, but there's 4 other players to help him out
He sucks as a pick'n roll defender, thats the bigger problem.

And Centers job basically is to be the one that helps others on defense. He is the last line of defense. The way the game is played right now, centers also have to be able to defend pick n roll, since its the most common way to attack defenses. If your center cant defend pick'n rolls, your whole defense suffers a lot. In addition to that, the way the league is going smaller requires more and more perimeter defense skills from your center. Thats why defense is a lot more important for centers than it is for guards and forwards.

Kanter might be a servicable regular season backup but I'm doubtful for even that. Him being such a liability on defense will most likely (like this season) make him a net negative when he is on the court.
 
I used to like Kanter. He used to play hard and always rebounded well. I like his attitude even if it rubs people the wrong way. However, he's coming with A LOT of baggage, mostly internationally, and I am not sure I would want the rest of the players and organization around something like that. I am not sure if it really even makes us any better, seems like a lateral move/favor to the Knicks. We could use Z-Bo's expiring for something better.
 
We made a deal last year and I was glad to open space up so Fox could get more playing time.
WCS is our center at least for awhile however long of time that is. And having said that most of us agree we have a problem at small forward and the center position.

Is anyone really seriously considering Giles as our starter if WCS is shipped out soon as he’s not ready. Saying Kanter has no defense well maybe not but we have WCS who does not score or rebound and at least he can do that.
I have see WCS not rotate to stop a drive, continue to let opponents conduct lay up drills, continue to let opposing players rack up carrier rebounding games , let opponents continue to keep drives alive by tipping it out or put backs.

Is Kanter the answer? But we have a problem and if we have a opportunity to improve those two positions why not give something else a try.
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He sucks as a pick'n roll defender, thats the bigger problem.

And Centers job basically is to be the one that helps others on defense. He is the last line of defense. The way the game is played right now, centers also have to be able to defend pick n roll, since its the most common way to attack defenses. If your center cant defend pick'n rolls, your whole defense suffers a lot. In addition to that, the way the league is going smaller requires more and more perimeter defense skills from your center. Thats why defense is a lot more important for centers than it is for guards and forwards.

Kanter might be a servicable regular season backup but I'm doubtful for even that. Him being such a liability on defense will most likely (like this season) make him a net negative when he is on the court.
I think he's an absolutely stellar 20 MPG back-up against other teams benches. That mitigates a lot of his struggles on the defensive end where he has to be the "rim protector" against starter-level offensive players and he can just dominate usage and rebounds against back-ups. Basically, OKC had his role perfect where he was a 20 MPG guy behind Adams and was the offensive punch when Westbrook and Durant were resting.

Looks like the deal is done though.
 
I think he's an absolutely stellar 20 MPG back-up against other teams benches. That mitigates a lot of his struggles on the defensive end where he has to be the "rim protector" against starter-level offensive players and he can just dominate usage and rebounds against back-ups. Basically, OKC had his role perfect where he was a 20 MPG guy behind Adams and was the offensive punch when Westbrook and Durant were resting.

Looks like the deal is done though.
Done as in they made the deal or done as in it's not going to happen?