Kings discussing trade for Kanter?- Woj

#61
so Bigs min last 2 games:

WCS 17,31
Beli 21,16
Bags 20,0
Giles 17,16
Kosta 13,11
JJ-bal 8,22

96 per game

So if we trade Zbo for Enes, Where does he get his minutes?

With Bags back JJ min will go down

Even if you give Enes ALL of KK minutes, he will be so unhappy coming off the bench for 15 min?
You give him Giles Min? right when he is coming out of his shell?
That is why he wants out of NY to get meaningful starter min

With no WCS trade this is a big mistake
Agreed. If Kanter is coming, the Kings would be looking to move WCS.

There is no point of having 2 Centers as pending free agents competing for minutes and dollars. You would make both unhappy and probably lose both in the summer for no value.

If the Kings trade for Kanter, I would have to believe that Vlade has a WCS trade lined up somewhere, hopefully for a starting small forward.
 
#62
Agreed. If Kanter is coming, the Kings would be looking to move WCS.

There is no point of having 2 Centers as pending free agents competing for minutes and dollars. You would make both unhappy and probably lose both in the summer for no value.

If the Kings trade for Kanter, I would have to believe that Vlade has a WCS trade lined up somewhere, hopefully for a starting small forward.
Neither one of them is a starting C and Kanter makes our current big's looks like ELITE defenders. Luke Kornett would be a better fit on this squad.
 
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#63
The need is a defensive center.

Kanter is a better rebounder than WCS, but I always pictured the WCS replacement being more like Harrell, Holmes or Capela.

Kanter would feed off of Fox drives to the baskets by rebounding the misses. I just don't think offense is the problem for the team.
 
#64
so Bigs min last 2 games:

WCS 17,31
Beli 21,16
Bags 20,0
Giles 17,16
Kosta 13,11
JJ-bal 8,22

96 per game

So if we trade Zbo for Enes, Where does he get his minutes?

With Bags back JJ min will go down

Even if you give Enes ALL of KK minutes, he will be so unhappy coming off the bench for 15 min?
You give him Giles Min? right when he is coming out of his shell?
That is why he wants out of NY to get meaningful starter min

With no WCS trade this is a big mistake
When players don't get the playing time they want, they are unhappy. It is irrelevant. It is how most DNP-CD or limited role players feel. I would imagine Enes would get 15 minutes to start and more depending on his performance. Hypothetically if he was not happy with "all of KK minutes" then he should play some damn defense and earn more time on the floor. The guy is no position to dictate a trade where he would get "meaningful starter minutes". That destination doesn't even exist. Going from the Knicks to the Kings would be an opportunity to re-establish himself as a player and that is the most a player of his current status can ask for.
 
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#65
The need is a defensive center.

Kanter is a better rebounder than WCS, but I always pictured the WCS replacement being more like Harrell, Holmes or Capela.

Kanter would feed off of Fox drives to the baskets by rebounding the misses. I just don't think offense is the problem for the team.
If a defensive center is what the Kings are looking for, they shouldn't be kicking the tires on a Kanter trade.

From what I hear, Hassan Whiteside is on the trade block in Miami, as Pat Riley is looking to shed some salary on his going nowhere squad.

Maybe we can work a trade to relieve Miami of some salary and bring back Hassan Whiteside.
 
#66
I'm actually way cool with this.

He can rebound and score in the paint, two things we need! And if it doesn't work out, he's an expiring.

Only problem is, his defense is so bad he makes WCS look like prime Ben Wallace (although to be fair to Trill, he did have 3 blocks and 3 steals last night)!

I can imagine his minutes eating into Giles' time though. Kanter would play, unlike Z-bo.
 
#67
If a defensive center is what the Kings are looking for, they shouldn't be kicking the tires on a Kanter trade.

From what I hear, Hassan Whiteside is on the trade block in Miami, as Pat Riley is looking to shed some salary on his going nowhere squad.

Maybe we can work a trade to relieve Miami of some salary and bring back Hassan Whiteside.

Enas is not the defensive answer, but I wouldn't want Whiteside or his contract. Hassan is a half court player who will want 30 minutes a game while you've got Giles and Bagley waiting to play.
 

Entity

Hall of Famer
#68
The need is a defensive center.

Kanter is a better rebounder than WCS, but I always pictured the WCS replacement being more like Harrell, Holmes or Capela.

Kanter would feed off of Fox drives to the baskets by rebounding the misses. I just don't think offense is the problem for the team.
you may want to watch the last 4 min of each of the last 5 losses. no interior offense is killing us in crunch time. can't rely on 3's when teams are swarming and stepping up. Bagley would help there but he was injured during those 5 losses.
 
#70
We didn't make our run in the first half until WCS went to the bench. Our lead collapsed in the 3rd with WCS playing like crap. If we were not overly cautious with a healthy player "feeling great", Bagley would have replaced those minutes sooner and we would have won. Willie made some nice plays with a couple of blocks and a steal but it took him 46 minutes to play with some intensity and anticipation. Teams are getting smart in scouting us and game planning us. The Suns overplayed everybody except Willie and once Willie had the ball they tried to deny passes and turn him into a scorer. It worked and more teams are going to do it.
I disagree. this game was not lost because WCS played poorly or because Suns targeted him in some way. WCS missed 5 shots total and had 0 turnovers. what is the supposed value the Suns extracted from him then? Compared to lets say Fox with 5 missed shots and 8 turnovers. WCS also had 3 blocks and 3 steals and only 2 less assists than Fox. this game is not WCS fault.
 
#71
Trade for Kanter? WHY??
Makes no sense. Too many negatives. No defense. Personal issues.

Regarding the mention of Whiteside, while skeptical that idea also intrigues me. He certainly checks several boxes the KINGS desperately need -- rebounding and rim protection. But can he be 'encouraged' to run the floor like WCS does? He's certainly athletic enough to do it. But would his attitude allow him to do it? Could Vlade and Joerger get him to buy in?? If so, he could be a great fit. His 27M per salary is certainly a negative, but he only has 1 year left beyond this season. Don't know if he could be had beyond that for a reasonable price.
 
#72
Willie: "No one is worse at rim FG% allowed than me"
Kanter: "Hold my beer"
im feeling Kinda bipolar on this potential trade. lol! In my initial post this morning after waking up I didn't want Kanter coming here. then I remembered how much I can't stand WCS so then I considered it a bit of an upgrade rebounding and post scoring wise.

however now im back to being meh about this. Kanter has been totally unmotivated (rightfully so playing for the Knicks who are just an absolute joke of a franchise). So I do think that like when he was on OKC he could be more impactful if there was something to play for. BUT he's not much of an improvement as far as rim protection and im not sure he can run with this team either.

So I think unless we get Tim Hardaway jr. or Otto Porter with Kanter im gonna go ahead and pass here. as much as I hate WCS. We'd be better off trying to get a cheap/ motivated big WCS "like" ala Holmes phx or the clippers center Harrell ( I know he's not getting traded btw, someone like him)

we need a SF more than anything. throw in a rim running, screen setting, shot blocker this team makes the playoffs for sure.

(just writing down rim running, screen setting, shot blocker made me hate WCS even more. CAUSE THIS IDIOT CAN DO ALL OF THE ABOVE AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT!!!! freaking space cadet willie! has all the tools this team needs and no brains or ability to flip that switch for more than 2mins a game occasionally, and usually in the 4th quarter of games. which just leaves all of us wondering what if? what if?

now we Gotta think about Kanter cause you can't do your job!
 
#73
Enas is not the defensive answer, but I wouldn't want Whiteside or his contract. Hassan is a half court player who will want 30 minutes a game while you've got Giles and Bagley waiting to play.
A lot of the bad possessions we have in the halfcourt are when Willie gets the ball at the top of key and holds it and goes nowhere until he can hand it off to a teammate. It bogs down our attack when he can't make a play to advance the offense. Then we get a low percentage shot as the shot clock goes to zero. This is not reflected in his stats but burdens the team. Again, opponents are funneling the ball to the weakest link on the team and forcing him to make a play. This is not showing in the box score. I am not saying Willie is solely responsible for the L but it is not coincidence we went on a great run in the second quarter without him then collapsed in the third quarter with him. Bogs hurt us yesterday too. He is not playing well. Giles also struggled too. Willie's shot blocks at the end don't make up for it. I also don't blame him for missing those FTs, the coach never should have had a 50% FT shooter in the game over Bjelica when we needed a three.
 
#74
A lot of the bad possessions we have in the halfcourt are when Willie gets the ball at the top of key and holds it and goes nowhere until he can hand it off to a teammate. It bogs down our attack when he can't make a play to advance the offense. Then we get a low percentage shot as the shot clock goes to zero. This is not reflected in his stats but burdens the team. Again, opponents are funneling the ball to the weakest link on the team and forcing him to make a play. This is not showing in the box score. I am not saying Willie is solely responsible for the L but it is not coincidence we went on a great run in the second quarter without him then collapsed in the third quarter with him. Bogs hurt us yesterday too. He is not playing well. Giles also struggled too. Willie's shot blocks at the end don't make up for it. I also don't blame him for missing those FTs, the coach never should have had a 50% FT shooter in the game over Bjelica when we needed a three.
To be fair, that seems to be partly scheme. It's something they overused like hell last year with Zbo and WCS, and although they revamped their offense they still occasionally revert back to the high post junk. They funnel it in to Koufos too sometimes which is equally ineffective. Giles too but he's obviously more proficient at it. Bagley is the only big here who doesn't seem to play from the high post often.

Now I haven't watched Kanter extensively so I'm not sure if he can do something differently than WCS and Koufos in those situations.
 
#75
he is not a bad passer out of the high post, but since he is a bad shooter they can sag and cover all the movement, but he should not be put into that position too much other than to handoff the ball and cause some movement in the defense as lets say Buddy is curling off of him. he should be put more into the pick and roll
 
#76
Kanter is a Koufos upgrade. Not to take Harry or bagley mins. Also, dont be surprised to see Bjelica moved.

Kanter is a good insurance policy as well as change of pace with wcs if we trade him
 
#77
The more I think about it the more I really like this trade.

I totally agree with you. If we can still land a starting caliber small forward. I’m all for this deal.
Kanter would be a great fit. He would double up the team’s toughness overnight, play role of enforcer esp with all the BS contact Fox has been getting, actually be a mid range threat, and be one of our best FT shooters.
 
#78
To be fair, that seems to be partly scheme. It's something they overused like hell last year with Zbo and WCS, and although they revamped their offense they still occasionally revert back to the high post junk. They funnel it in to Koufos too sometimes which is equally ineffective. Giles too but he's obviously more proficient at it. Bagley is the only big here who doesn't seem to play from the high post often.

Now I haven't watched Kanter extensively so I'm not sure if he can do something differently than WCS and Koufos in those situations.
Where do you propose we put Willie on offense then? You don't want him in the low post, do you? He is best in the pick and roll and rolling to the rim but you are not going to get this every possession. In fact the Suns did a good job taking away the roll when they made their comeback. The problem is Willie never developed that face up shot so defenders don't honor him. They back off him and take away his driving and passing angles. He's equally ineffective out of the low post. I would contend we are running the "scheme" to try to get the most out of Willie. It is his skill set that is the limiting variable not the scheme.
 
#79
I will defer to the cap gurus around here because I really don’t understand all the rules, but the ESPN trade machine has zbo making 11.692 this year and kanter making 18.622. So that would be an additional 7 million in cap space next year?
 
#80
I will defer to the cap gurus around here because I really don’t understand all the rules, but the ESPN trade machine has zbo making 11.692 this year and kanter making 18.622. So that would be an additional 7 million in cap space next year?
Both players expire so there really is no net-effect other than change of scenery. We can absorb the difference although there are (legitimately) questions if we want to without other moves as well.
 

Entity

Hall of Famer
#84
Bottom line is we need rebounding and we need post scoring outside of a rookie. Kanter would bring both. I cringe every time I see kosta at high post with the ball looking deer I head lights. Also when Willie puts his back to guy and tries to work the post. It’s horrible Willie can catch lobs at least but that’s it.
 
#85
Where do you propose we put Willie on offense then? You don't want him in the low post, do you? He is best in the pick and roll and rolling to the rim but you are not going to get this every possession. In fact the Suns did a good job taking away the roll when they made their comeback. The problem is Willie never developed that face up shot so defenders don't honor him. They back off him and take away his driving and passing angles. He's equally ineffective out of the low post. I would contend we are running the "scheme" to try to get the most out of Willie. It is his skill set that is the limiting variable not the scheme.
He is most effective in the high post. He is actually a prolific passer for center out of the high post. Low turnovers as well. Basically a good ball movers. From the high post, he also drives a lot to the basket, though with low FG% and decent foul drawing rate.
https://stats.nba.com/players/elbow...H_PASSES*G*1.5&sort=ELBOW_TOUCH_AST_PCT&dir=1

If there is an efficient low post finisher then WCS would stick to moving the ball and occasionally does everything else. Contrary to a the popular opinion, WCS offensive skill set is quite diverse. He can spot up a bit, work in the low post a bit, and of course very good roller. He can't be featured on offense because his touch is mediocre. Joerger's halfcourt offense needs an efficient low post finisher. Since Bagley is injured, every one is taking on more responsibility and out of the comfort zone much.

Here is a a very good link from some guy who took last year's data and comprised into a very impressive data base, "Defining Offensive Role By Play Type." Look for WCS. He is under "Bigs with Skilled Everywhere."
https://public.tableau.com/profile/...me/PlaytypeDatabyOffensiveRoles-2017-18/Roles

There is a reason why he has the highest offensive rating for the team. Not only he is great in transition offense, he is also perfectly functional in Joerger's halft court offense as a high post facilitator.

Man I forgot this is a Kanter thread.
 
#86
Isn't Kanters defense horrible? I read players were calling him out on Twitter and old coaches kept running pick n roll on him cuz he just can’t defend them. Just wanted to throw out some objective criticism but overall I guess his offense + rebounding - defense > KK this year.
I always remember a story from when Richard Jefferson played with Enes on the Jazz, he said I think during exit interveiws that Kanter doesn't really believe in playing defense and believes games are solely won and lost on the offensive end.

Also when Utah flipped from Kanter to Gobert that initial season, they went from the worst defense in the league to the best..

He's had his job taken by Vonleh who was on a non-guaranteed deal this season...

It's safe to say his defense is no good. Sometimes he'll get a block or make a play with his chest defensively but his feet are slowww..
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
#87
Don't know if this has been posted yet or not, but its an update on the proposed Kanter trade, and a little insight to his situation from a New York writer.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/...anter-zach-randolph-trade-20190109-story.html
So according to this article, the Knicks are looking for some "sweetener" to send off Kanter, despite the fact that he's the more expensive player and they want to get rid of him. ...OK.

I just don't really see the upside. If we trade for Kanter we get, presumably, somewhat elevated rebounding off the bench in the place of Koufos. I don't think that's worth burning our cap space, and it's definitely not worth sending "sweetener" to do it. We should be trying to work our cap space to get a player under a longer contract that we actually want (for instance the pie-in-the-sky Porter thoughts) or trading it to get a pick. Paying extra money and losing our valuable cap space to get some good rebounding and bad D off the bench just doesn't move the needle for me.
 
#88
Yeah I have a hard time believing any "sweetener" needs to be thrown in, it's just shuffling people neither team has a need for. I'm fine giving it a go, and I'm fine if it facilitates another move. Hell I'd even consider letting them throw in Hezonja to save even more money. But even if we gave them the 60th pick next year I'd get a little irked if Kanter was all we got back.
 
#90
I totally forgot Hezonja, It will be nice if we get him and Kanter.
Jackson prior to this recent outburst was better than Mario and that's when Troy Williams was taking his time. The only two players (assuming you don't move the core of Bags/fox/Buddy/giles/Bogs that are tradable right now that will get us value are WCS/Bjelica (maybe Jackson) otherwise you are trading trash for trash.