kings better resign thornton....

[Bricklayer]

What do you think about Kirilenko? A similar lanky defender SF. He's 30 though as well

Yeah, absolutely. Can pass too, which might help that lineup.

Assuming that Thornton can dial it back half a notch this lineup would be absolutely potent on BOTH ends of the floor:

C- Dalembert
PF- Cousins
SF- Kirilenko
SG- Thornton
PG- Reke

Huge, long, multiple excellent players on either end of the ball. Three 6'11" guys, 2 defensive specialsits/shotblockers. Its a sexy thought.

 

[SCKingsfan]

Yeah, absolutely. Can pass too, which might help that lineup.

Assuming that Thornton can dial it back half a notch this lineup would be absolutely potent on BOTH ends of the floor:

C- Dalembert
PF- Cousins
SF- Kirilenko
SG- Thornton
PG- Reke

Huge, long, multiple excellent players on either end of the ball. Three 6'11" guys, 2 defensive specialsits/shotblockers. Its a sexy thought.

Yeah, but beyond shock blocking and a little more length, Kirilenko doesn't give you more than Prince. Prince is much better at creating own shot, and posting smaller guys up. Also has very good length for the position and can shoot the 3 ball. Overall, seems to fill more of the various roles we need right way. Both can score without needing the ball all the time. prince also has ballhandling abilities when needed.

 

[sidney]

Yeah, but beyond shock blocking and a little more length, Kirilenko doesn't give you more than Prince. Prince is much better at creating own shot, and posting smaller guys up. Also has very good length for the position. Overall, seems to fill more of the various roles we need right way. Both can score without needing the ball all the time. prince also has ballhandling abilities when needed.

I think Petrie should prioritize Prince, Kirilenko, and Battier and then just see who he can sign for something reasonable. They all have their plusses and minuses.

Main point is that if we have a big time scorer in Thornton a vet SF strong defender who can score some and efficiently would make a big difference. No longer need the major scoring from that position which greatly decreases the amount we'd have to spend. We're fortunate that all 3 of those guys are FA this year at a time we need that type of player.

 

[Bricklayer]

Yeah, but beyond shock blocking and a little more length, Kirilenko doesn't give you more than Prince. Prince is much better at creating own shot, and posting smaller guys up. Also has very good length for the position and can shoot the 3 ball. Overall, seems to fill more of the various roles we need right way. Both can score without needing the ball all the time. prince also has ballhandling abilities when needed.

The extra Xs with Kirilenko are passing -- you can actually run offense through him, and Utah has in the past -- and youth.

I agree with Prince's plusses, but given the extreme amount of firepower you could be talking about with Cousins/Reke/Thronton in their priimes, they may actually be somewhat less important. But in any case, if Thornton is legit, and he certainly looks it, these are now the guys who fit into that spot. Still elite players, but elite in a different, and much needed, way than our offensive guys. You get one of them, and Dalembert together in the starting lineup, and more or less "buy" those defensive speicailists with the offensive firepower of Reke/Cousins/Thornton, it could revolutionalize the whole way the team plays on the defensive side of the ball. I've long contended that one of the real keys to why superstars win it all so often is because having them allows you to fill the other spots with elite defensive personnel rather than having to fill in with lesser offensive players to make up the points. Shaq and Kobe'd teams didn't actually score many more points than anybody else, but what those guys did was allow the rest of the roster to be filled with Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Horace Grant, Ron Harper etc. etc.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think Petrie should prioritize Prince, Kirilenko, and Battier and then just see who he can sign for something reasonable. They all have their plusses and minuses.

Main point is that if we have a big time scorer in Thornton a vet SF strong defender who can score some and efficiently would make a big difference. No longer need the major scoring from that position which greatly decreases the amount we'd have to spend. We're fortunate that all 3 of those guys are FA this year at a time we need that type of player.

Sign two of them, make the other a 6th man.

 

[Glenn]

Interesting converation. We have a team that is a little short on talent and very short on experience. We need experience. Then when we get to talking about guys smack dab in the middle of their prime, very good expreinced vets, they are either too expensive or too old. There needs to be some resolution in the thought processes.

Old is not bad. If it is, then young and old is bad. We are left with the need of a near all pro who will sign for $7 mil betwen the ages of 25 and 28. Otherwise forget it. What if such a person doesn't exist?

Any good player 28-32 can play now. He will probably never be any better. If we wait too long for that perfect player, we'll be whining about the money Cousins and Reke make AND they are getting old. I exageratte of course. There is a little reasonableness sprinkled in here and there.

Ah, never mind, it seems to have resolved well. I finally got to the end. Sorry.

 

[AleksandarN]

whats sad is outside of a 31 year old Prince and a 33 year old Battier. We can't think of 1 SF in the league that plays great D and isn't a liability on offense. Well of course you always have Ron Artest lol.

What about gerald wallace? If we could somehow get him i think he would be ideal.

 

[Gary]

Considering that he's making around 800 thousand right now, 3 or 4 mil would probably look good to him. As an aside, I don't understand why people have any fear about Tyreke and Thornton playing together. Their styles, while similar in some ways, are also quite different. The bottom line is that who ever puts the ball in the basket the most times wins. So having another good shooter on the floor isn't a detriment. There's nothing wrong with having five players on the floor that can score the ball. The key is getting them all to play team basketball. Move the ball and not care who ends up with the most points as long as the team wins.

Cousins made the statement that he doesn't care if he scores any points, as long as the team wins. Now I don't totally believe that, but I do think he's a team player, and very unselfish. So the question is, if Tyreke only scores 14 or 15 points instead of 20 or 25 pts, but has 8 or 9 assists a game, will he be happy with that as long as the team is winning? The truth is, on a good team, if you get hot, your teammates will keep feeding you the ball until you cool off. Much like last night when they kept setting up Thornton. He just never cooled off.

While I believe Cousins can be that type of player, I don't think Evans will ever be an 8-9 assist per game guy. He's not a pass first PG. Has never been one..

What I can't wait to see though is how well Thorton and Evans play together. Hope it works better than Martin/Evans

 

[SacTownKid]

The only thing with AK47 is that it appears as if he'll never really truly be the type of player that teams will respect out on the perimeter offensively. That would make it very tough offensively for the Kings unless Tyreke really improves his own ability to create a mid range jumper. If he does I wouldn't be so worried about it. A lot of one on one when motion through AK47 or Cousins didn't work but with Cousins, Thornton, and Reke that might not be such a bad thing.

 

[sackings]

This thread prove how many fans in Sacramento are bandwagon fans. More than half of this board didn't approve this trade because the trade included Carl Landry.

 

[Arkitect]

I am excited to see Thornton/Healthy Reke before this season is over. If things go as well as I think they will, we are going to go on a run to finish this year. We have all the components we need going forward besides an elite defender at SF. Getting the components is the hardest part of building a team. Obviously Reke/Thornton/Cousins are only going to get better. So the only real question is how well they can exist together.

 

[Glenn]

???

Thanks. Very helpful. If you want to say something, say it and don't go through my notes and see if you can catch me in an inconsistency with words taken out of context. If you don't understand me, put me on "ignore."

 

[bajaden]

At least for me, it boils down to seeing them play together for a reasonable time (around 20 games or so at least), to decide. We have been playing Reke with Beno a lot this year. Call Reke PG, or combo guard or whatever. Point is, we have not had him as the primary ball handler.

I don't know all the motivations behind trading Kevin, but I guess, in part at least, it was driven by adding more ball handling, and pure PG play, to the back court. If so, we shall have similar issues with Thornton, unless we feel that Reke can be the primary PG (where he shall have a huge size advantage over virtually anyone).

And then finally, our decision shall be driven by whom we draft. If we get, say Irving, we shall have a crowded back court with Reke, Beno, Thornton, Irving as the primary guys, along with Cisco (I think he is better at 2 than 3), and if we decide to keep any of Taylor, Jeter (hoping and fairly sure that Head won't be back).

We have to see which guys can we keep, and at what price. If we do get Irving, we shall probably want to trade one of Beno, Cisco and Thornton. Given the contracts and production, I think Thornton shall get us the most value.

There's no doubt that who we draft can have some affect on our decision making during freeagency. If we were to draft Irving, I don't see him starting, and there's no immediate reason he has to. That's probably his eventual role, but were no longer in that desperate area where we have to throw young players into the middle of the fray. We can afford to let him come off the bench for year, unless of course he just wow's us we can't afford to keep him on the bench.

I'm not sure why you would want to trade Thornton. Guys that can score 20 plus points and on occasion score 40, don't grow on tree's. Beno and Cisco are nice players, but they can't do what Thornton can do. Sorry, I've got Thornton on my untouchable side of the ledger.

 

[Bricklayer]

This thread prove how many fans in Sacramento are bandwagon fans. More than half of this board didn't approve this trade because the trade included Carl Landry.

?

I don't know where that line of argumet has sprung from, but there were VERY few Landry supporters left by the time fo the trade. Everybody wanted him traded. I think the biggest resistances were to who he was traded for. And on that front I think the loudest dissenters were the "we need a pure PG!!!" peeps who wanted a PG added at all costs. The clear subtext of acquiring a Marcus Thornotn is that Reke and Beno are deemed sufficient to run the point, in particualr with Cousins passing, and Thornton becomes the SG. The PG peeps were hoping that we would pick up a PG, so Beno/new PG wiould be the PGs, and Reke the SG.

 

[bajaden]

No, I think that if this season has proven anything its that we are not likely to get that guy out of the guys we have. And certainly not in time to make some noise in the near future. We have a hole. We can't just sit idle and keep the same team that is going to win 20 games.

As for Cisco -- I generally agree about him as a glue guy. Contract aside, I think he could have value...as a bencher going forward. Of course if you add him to the keeps, the light begins to shine mighty hard on the young guys there.

He's too old and that whole player revolt thiing is a giant stinkbomb over there, but if you had Tayshaun Prince as your starter there next year, backed up by Cisco, it would be a huge step toward stability, championship experience, and defensive competence. For a few years of course until Prince got old.

I'd love either Prince or Battier while knowing that either's days are numbered. I think Greene has worn out his welcome and belive he'll be traded in the offseason. There's always someone that will take chance on a young player on a short cheap contract. Right now I'd trade him for a mid to late 1st round pick. Cisco is a great guy to have on your team, but he's a borderline starter on a good team. Casspi's defense has improved over the year, but he's still inconsistent with his shot and you just never know what your going to get from him one night to the next.

Everything about being a good team comes down to being consistent. When you know what your going to get out of your starting five night after night, then you have a good competitive team going forward. Inconsistency drives coaches to pulling out their hair. One of the most impressive things about Tyreke last year, was you knew what your were going to get. Now your starting to see the same think, at least on a limited basis from Thornton. On the whole, your seeing more consistency from Cousins and Dalembert. All we have to do now is fill in the holes.

 

[Boogie-havoc]

Btw guys.

If we end up landing Irving.. and say Reke doesn't really change his style of play after a period of time that we test the Irving-Reke-Cousins trio.

Assuming Irving is what we all project him to be, do you see a situation where we trade Reke to address other needs? could you see it as a reasonable thing to do?

Was just a thought I had yesterday, wondered what you think about .t

 

[rainmaker]

While I believe Cousins can be that type of player, I don't think Evans will ever be an 8-9 assist per game guy. He's not a pass first PG. Has never been one..

What I can't wait to see though is how well Thorton and Evans play together. Hope it works better than Martin/Evans

Yet, as a rookie with barely any shooters, and this year, injured, with even less shooters around him, he averaged 5.8 and 5.3 asts respectively. I know you, as well as everyone else, has seen Tyreke penetrate, draw defenders, and kick to wide open shooters, who miss, and miss, and miss some more. And this is happening while Tyreke is still learning the NBA game, and will continue his education for a least a few more years, like all young players.

So let me ask you, if during that span, rookie and this year, if he was kicking out to a wide open Thornton, instead of the countless guys we have who can't hit open shots even semi-consistently, do you think he'd get another ast or two per game? That would already put him between 7-8 asts per. Now, he's played how many game with Cousins? You don't think after playing another 100 or so games with him, Cousins wouldn't be on the other end of an extra pass or two which he'll convert in the paint?

As we use our cap space to surround Tyreke and Cousins with better shooters, and we're no longer the worst shooting team in the league, you don't think that will effect Tyreke's ast numbers as well?

I just gave three reasons as to why his asts should go up, so unless you can tell me all three are wrong, his asts will go up. And in order for that to be true, Thornton shooting % will need to drop over 10%, the chemistry between he and Cousins would have to get worse, and well as Cousins all the sudden not being able to finish in the paint, Omri doesn't become a better shooter, and, we don't use any of our cap space or upcoming pick on someone who can shoot.

I say with full confidence, that it's highly likely, you're completely wrong.

 

[hrdboild]

Btw guys.

If we end up landing Irving.. and say Reke doesn't really change his style of play after a period of time that we test the Irving-Reke-Cousins trio.

Assuming Irving is what we all project him to be, do you see a situation where we trade Reke to address other needs? could you see it as a reasonable thing to do?

Was just a thought I had yesterday, wondered what you think about .t

Of course not. Irving has played all of 8 games in college so far. Even if he turns out to be Chris Paul 2.0 you still need a second guard in your starting lineup and another 3 on the bench. It'll change the way Tyreke has to play of course, but there's plenty of time to get that figured out. Not to mention, who are you actually going to trade Tyreke for that would be considered fair value? Guys of that caliber are usually untouchable, for obvious reasons. It's possible that combination of players won't work out, but even if one of them has to be traded -- right now Irving looks like a guy I would trade before I traded Tyreke, even if he is as good as I expect him to be. Irving might get there, Tyreke is already there.

As for Tyreke's assist numbers, it occurred to me when we played the Thunder a couple times last month that Russell Westbrook gets two or three assists every game that are designed plays where he just has to toss the ball to Durant off a screen. Durant gets his shot off in a split-second, it's unguardable, and he's damn near automatic half the time. That's the easiest assist in the league. If you adjust Westbrook's numbers for the "Durant-effect", they're almost a mirror image of Tyreke's. Westbrook was an All-Star this year in his third year. He's practically a franchise player already. Wouldn't you want to keep a bigger, stronger Russell Westbrook on your team if you had him?

 

[est.1999]

This team is gonna be extremely fun to watch next year.

 

[kingsfan101]

There's no doubt that who we draft can have some affect on our decision making during freeagency. If we were to draft Irving, I don't see him starting, and there's no immediate reason he has to. That's probably his eventual role, but were no longer in that desperate area where we have to throw young players into the middle of the fray. We can afford to let him come off the bench for year, unless of course he just wow's us we can't afford to keep him on the bench.

I'm not sure why you would want to trade Thornton. Guys that can score 20 plus points and on occasion score 40, don't grow on tree's. Beno and Cisco are nice players, but they can't do what Thornton can do. Sorry, I've got Thornton on my untouchable side of the ledger.

No. I'm not saying we start Irving if we draft him. Just saying that long term, the back court shall be too crowded with all these players, and there shall not be minutes for everyone. Even next year, if he is there, we shall expect him to see some time, even if not as a starter.

I understand the love for Thornton. I too feel he's playing great, and don't WANT to trade him. The only point I am trying to raise is if a Reke/Thornton back court can exist. If so, yes, we should keep him, and try to trade Beno/Cisco. Else, we try and see what we can get for him.

And no, I'm not comparing Beno/Cisco to him. Just saying that Beno in particular fills a different role than Marcus in the team. Cisco too, we often play at 3.

I like Cisco, but if it comes down to choosing between him and Thornton, based on recent performance, I would pick Thornton of course. But I come back to my original point again. If he can put up similar (or even slightly lower numbers, as long as efficiency remains largely same), once Reke comes back, he is obviously a keeper, and we try to trade Beno/Cisco instead, even if the returns are much lower. If we insist on playing both Reke and Thornton at the 2 though, how do we divide the minutes?

 

[kingsfan101]

There's no doubt that who we draft can have some affect on our decision making during freeagency. If we were to draft Irving, I don't see him starting, and there's no immediate reason he has to. That's probably his eventual role, but were no longer in that desperate area where we have to throw young players into the middle of the fray. We can afford to let him come off the bench for year, unless of course he just wow's us we can't afford to keep him on the bench.

I'm not sure why you would want to trade Thornton. Guys that can score 20 plus points and on occasion score 40, don't grow on tree's. Beno and Cisco are nice players, but they can't do what Thornton can do. Sorry, I've got Thornton on my untouchable side of the ledger.

No. I'm not saying we start Irving if we draft him. Just saying that long term, the back court shall be too crowded with all these players, and there shall not be minutes for everyone. Even next year, if he is there, we shall expect him to see some time, even if not as a starter.

I understand the love for Thornton. I too feel he's playing great, and don't WANT to trade him. The only point I am trying to raise is if a Reke/Thornton back court can exist. If so, yes, we should keep him, and try to trade Beno/Cisco. Else, we try and see what we can get for him.

And no, I'm not comparing Beno/Cisco to him. Just saying that Beno in particular fills a different role than Marcus in the team. Cisco too, we often play at 3.

I like Cisco, but if it comes down to choosing between him and Thornton, based on recent performance, I would pick Thornton of course. But I come back to my original point again. If he can put up similar (or even slightly lower numbers, as long as efficiency remains largely same), once Reke comes back, he is obviously a keeper, and we try to trade Beno/Cisco instead, even if the returns are much lower. If we insist on playing both Reke and Thornton at the 2 though, how do we divide the minutes?

 

[steelevt]

What I can't wait to see though is how well Thorton and Evans play together. Hope it works better than Martin/Evans

i also want to see what this pairing can do. i was one of the few that thought the martin/evans pairing would work, but needed the time it was never given. for those who believed martin/evans wouldnt work, how do you feel about thornton/evans. what's different about these two comparisons. the numbers of martin this season vs the games thornton played in sac are similar. the main difference i've noticed is thornton plays a little better def. if he keeps up this pace, he's a 20+ ppg guard...can he coexist with evans, our other 20+ ppg guard?

 

[est.1999]

Thornon>Martin

 

[ParniValjak]

i also want to see what this pairing can do. i was one of the few that thought the martin/evans pairing would work, but needed the time it was never given. for those who believed martin/evans wouldnt work, how do you feel about thornton/evans. what's different about these two comparisons. the numbers of martin this season vs the games thornton played in sac are similar. the main difference i've noticed is thornton plays a little better def. if he keeps up this pace, he's a 20+ ppg guard...can he coexist with evans, our other 20+ ppg guard?

They are very different. Thornton can handle the ball and he can create his own shot. He doesn't need other people setting up screens for him to get open and take the shot. The whole team offence was geared around getting Martin opened and in a position to score where as Thornton was different in that he doesn't need screens to get his shot off. He can score off of a broken play. He is a more complete player offensively than Martin and this is a major difference and we haven't even started looking at the defensive side of the ball.

 

[swisshh]

I'm going to play reality here and point out that this team has been one of the worst teams in the league for three years and one of the most irrelevant teams for about five years, but these threads are just too much kool-aid for me. For two of those horrible three years, Reke has been the guy. For this year, we've had Reke and Boogie. Thornton isn't going to magically change things. There is a bigger gap between the team's reality and the team's dreams than people want to admit. Reke or Boogie would have to make a drastic leap ahead to see a winning team, and for an exciting winning team, Thornton would be the sixth man. Not the vital third cog.

 

[Bricklayer]

Swisshh Quote Circa 2008:

I'm going to play reality here and point out that this team has been one of the worst teams in the league for three years and one of the most irrelevant teams for about five years, but these threads are just too much kool-aid for me. For two of those horrible three years, Durant has been the guy. For this year, we've had Durant and Westbrook. There is a bigger gap between the team's reality and the team's dreams than people want to admit. Durant or Westbrook would have to make a drastic leap ahead to see a winning team, and for an exciting winning team, Green would be the sixth man. Not the vital third cog.

All it takes is time. Young team with top talents = winning is almost an inevtability. And this one has been very close to winning already. The things it has lacked are defense and discipline, not talent.

 

[est.1999]

Lol nice one brick.

 

[kingsboi]

I'm sure they will look into that right away.

 

[Gary]

Yet, as a rookie with barely any shooters, and this year, injured, with even less shooters around him, he averaged 5.8 and 5.3 asts respectively. I know you, as well as everyone else, has seen Tyreke penetrate, draw defenders, and kick to wide open shooters, who miss, and miss, and miss some more. And this is happening while Tyreke is still learning the NBA game, and will continue his education for a least a few more years, like all young players.

So let me ask you, if during that span, rookie and this year, if he was kicking out to a wide open Thornton, instead of the countless guys we have who can't hit open shots even semi-consistently, do you think he'd get another ast or two per game? That would already put him between 7-8 asts per. Now, he's played how many game with Cousins? You don't think after playing another 100 or so games with him, Cousins wouldn't be on the other end of an extra pass or two which he'll convert in the paint?

As we use our cap space to surround Tyreke and Cousins with better shooters, and we're no longer the worst shooting team in the league, you don't think that will effect Tyreke's ast numbers as well?

I just gave three reasons as to why his asts should go up, so unless you can tell me all three are wrong, his asts will go up. And in order for that to be true, Thornton shooting % will need to drop over 10%, the chemistry between he and Cousins would have to get worse, and well as Cousins all the sudden not being able to finish in the paint, Omri doesn't become a better shooter, and, we don't use any of our cap space or upcoming pick on someone who can shoot.

I say with full confidence, that it's highly likely, you're completely wrong.

That would be awesome if I am wrong, but he hasn't really changed much since College. He's not the most effective w/o the ball, and when he has it he's not as much of a pass first PG as I would like him to be. He's more of a Dwane Wade type player. A guy that can handle the ball and dish out about 6-7 assists per game while scoring more than 20, but he wont ever be the traditional PG that people like to see always passing the ball before shooting it.

I hope he proves me wrong, but he is playing pretty much liek he has in college since coming into the NBA. Just at a better pace.

 

[Gary]

This thread prove how many fans in Sacramento are bandwagon fans. More than half of this board didn't approve this trade because the trade included Carl Landry.

Where did this come from?

Landry was always talked about here as a 6th man at best.. Nobody ever called him the next best thing or said this was a horrible trade from what I remember.