Kevin Love To Kings?
- Thread starter rekehavoc123
- Start date
Gary
All-Star
I wasn't sold on McLemore at all last year. Way too inconsistent. But you're right about him needing others to create for him. He's had that knock on him since college.
Gary
All-Star
With those two we could get away with having a PG like Chalmers. Actually Chalmers would probably be the best fit. Good defender, and someone who knows their role but could produce when asked. We would just have to get them all on the same page and make them all want to play the passing game.
ockingsfan
Starter
You forgot to mention the brilliant trade for Tyreke that got us Brook Lopez.
Then PDA decided Lopez was not a good fit and he then gift wrapped him to Portland for a second round pick. He then used the money he saved with the trade and signed the great fit Carl Landry.
We are so much better off today with Carl Landry than Brook Lopez next to DMC!!!
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Kingster
Hall of Famer
http://portlandtribune.com/pt/12-sp...ves-shakeup-and-rick-adelman-kevin-love-exits
Interesting article in that Adelman talks about the need of a two-guard to make plays in the corner offense. It also talks about the Minni defensive deficiencies.
Interesting article in that Adelman talks about the need of a two-guard to make plays in the corner offense. It also talks about the Minni defensive deficiencies.
Big Cuz 15
All-Star
""Kevin can get his shot, but it's easier to take big guys out of the game. When you have a perimeter person who can break people down and help his teammates, that's a different story. We don't have anybody doing that on a consistent basis.""
i thought rubio was supposed to be that guy?
i thought rubio was supposed to be that guy?
ockingsfan
Starter
Robin.
this one:
And yes, that was maybe the most bizarre part of the whole thing.
Yes, Robin. Thanks.
Robin would actually have been a better fit next to DMC than Brook anyways.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I think what Adelman is getting at is that you need more than one guy on your team that can break down the defense and make plays, either at the 2 or the 3. That is why you're seeing more of the two-pg offense (e.g. Phoenix) in the league. Many two-guards can't make those kind of plays. (The Kings have talked quite a bit about getting McLemore up to the level where he will be making those plays). It's a lot easier for a defense to lock in on one one playmaker than two. If you can put one playmaker on one side of the floor and another playmaker on the opposite side it creates mucho problems for defenses. If the Kings got Love, and let's say they did retain IT, who other than IT would be making those plays? Not Gay, Love, or Cousins. It would be left to Mr X. And who would be cutting off the passes that Love is going to be making? Gay? Cousins? IT? Mr. X? Other than Mr. X, I don't see any of those guys being particularly great at cutting to the basket. And if IT isn't retained, then you've got Ray to be the playmaker and another Mr. X as a playmaker/pg?
King Baller
All-Star
Who guards Blake Griffin, Lamarcus Aldridge, Kevin Love, etc. when Robin and Cuz are on the floor? That is the issue of pairing Cuz with a slow footed 5.
I have no problem with us driving up the asking price for whoever eventually gets Kevin Love. But in basketball terms, I wouldn't pull the trigger on a trade to bring him here. Kevin is a great versatile offensive player who can do pretty much everything out there except defend at a high level. But if we're talking about putting together a core of Rudy Gay, Kevin Love, and DeMarcus Cousins we become the only team in the league with 3 top 20 usage players in the same lineup, much less the same front court. I'm not saying it's impossible to make that work, but I am saying that Coach Malone is not the right coach to make it work. You've completely negated his strengths as a coach and put his weaknesses front and center. That offense is going to be a complete mess and the defense is going to be a similar problem unless you play two super-athletes at the guard positions and run a million switches on every possession with them like Miami did in the first two years of the big 3. Adelman could work with a Cousins/Love/Gay featured trio and find a system that gets everyone good looks. I love Coach Malone, but offense is obviously not his forte.
Even so, if the coach was my only concern that can be fixed. But I happen to think Coach Malone's system is a much more reliable way to win games. Throwing up names on a piece of paper is meaningless. Teaming up Karl Malone and Gary Payton with Shaq and Kobe results in the best team of all-time right? That's 4 hall-of-famers on the same team. They're never going to lose. All sorts of basketball experts believed this before that season started. Or maybe it's just 4 alpha dogs on the same team and they're going to completely implode in the middle of the regular season. What's the common thread in every move PDA has made so far? Vasquez, Landry, Williams, Gay -- all of these guys were brought in to take advantage of opportunities to acquire talent regardless of fit. Swapping out all of our young players for Kevin Love is more of the same. If games were won on paper using numbers and slide rules and abstract "rock-paper-scissors" algorithms, then this approach is the right one. I believe basketball games are won because of synergy. It's the reason team USA doesn't always dominate international competition. It's the reason why Cleveland drafts all kinds of talent at the top of the lottery every year and still can't put together a winning season.
If Vivek truly believes that Coach Malone is the right guy to lead this team (he's the one that hired him after all, not PDA), he's got to at least listen to what he has to say. And he has to put together a roster for him that's compatible with Malone's approach to basketball. That means loading up on athletic defenders not big-numbers superstars who dominate the ball and take plays off defensively. I really wanted us to pay through the nose for Larry Bird as the GM because he has a track record of building teams that win with role-players, defensive fundamentals, and balanced offense. He's the right kind of GM for a coach like Malone. I think Vivek really wants this to work and he's brought a lot of effort an enthusiasm to the team and his personnel choices. Unfortunately, his choice of conflicting coach and GM philosophies is probably going to have us spinning our wheels for a few years until one of them goes (and it will be Malone that goes first I fear) or they find a more balanced give and take.
Even so, if the coach was my only concern that can be fixed. But I happen to think Coach Malone's system is a much more reliable way to win games. Throwing up names on a piece of paper is meaningless. Teaming up Karl Malone and Gary Payton with Shaq and Kobe results in the best team of all-time right? That's 4 hall-of-famers on the same team. They're never going to lose. All sorts of basketball experts believed this before that season started. Or maybe it's just 4 alpha dogs on the same team and they're going to completely implode in the middle of the regular season. What's the common thread in every move PDA has made so far? Vasquez, Landry, Williams, Gay -- all of these guys were brought in to take advantage of opportunities to acquire talent regardless of fit. Swapping out all of our young players for Kevin Love is more of the same. If games were won on paper using numbers and slide rules and abstract "rock-paper-scissors" algorithms, then this approach is the right one. I believe basketball games are won because of synergy. It's the reason team USA doesn't always dominate international competition. It's the reason why Cleveland drafts all kinds of talent at the top of the lottery every year and still can't put together a winning season.
If Vivek truly believes that Coach Malone is the right guy to lead this team (he's the one that hired him after all, not PDA), he's got to at least listen to what he has to say. And he has to put together a roster for him that's compatible with Malone's approach to basketball. That means loading up on athletic defenders not big-numbers superstars who dominate the ball and take plays off defensively. I really wanted us to pay through the nose for Larry Bird as the GM because he has a track record of building teams that win with role-players, defensive fundamentals, and balanced offense. He's the right kind of GM for a coach like Malone. I think Vivek really wants this to work and he's brought a lot of effort an enthusiasm to the team and his personnel choices. Unfortunately, his choice of conflicting coach and GM philosophies is probably going to have us spinning our wheels for a few years until one of them goes (and it will be Malone that goes first I fear) or they find a more balanced give and take.
randymoss1881
Starter
I will always side with defense and what Malobe preaches.
And if the D-Day landing had been in the Netherlands we would have probably lost the war.
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
The other thing I like about Kevin Love, is that like Cousins, he doesn't seem to a be a guy who is concerned about making "buddies" around the league. Just in mentality, that could work well together. "Us against any and all." A throwback to how it was back in the day
thedofd
Bench
Isn't this the same team that signed Andre Iguodala as a free agent one day and then pulled the offer back the next because he didn't really want to be a King?
I don't object to the trade on principle: The Kings have proven that adding a middling lottery pick several years in a row doesn't buy you much, so giving up No. 8 and whatever pieces are needed to make the salary cap work for Love isn't a huge deal. At best, the Kings improve and maybe even make the playoffs, get fans excited as the new arena is being built, and Love decides like so many others before him that Sacramento ain't so bad after all. At worst, we get to watch Love in a Kings jersey for a year -- which may not be ideal from a basketball standpoint but would be exciting nonetheless -- we get a bunch of cap space when he leaves, and we're back to where we are now in a couple of seasons, only in a sparkling new arena. The only real risk is that the No. 8 pick becomes a star, and when was the last time that happened for the Kings?
Honestly, though, this smells a bit like a marketing ploy. If the Kings had landed a top-three pick, it would be much easier to sell season tickets, I'd wager. Most of us are rather ho-hum about how things turned out in the lottery ("We're number eight! We're number eight!"). Time to think about baseball and other summer pursuits. But the mention of pursuing Kevin Love certainly has created a buzz...
I don't object to the trade on principle: The Kings have proven that adding a middling lottery pick several years in a row doesn't buy you much, so giving up No. 8 and whatever pieces are needed to make the salary cap work for Love isn't a huge deal. At best, the Kings improve and maybe even make the playoffs, get fans excited as the new arena is being built, and Love decides like so many others before him that Sacramento ain't so bad after all. At worst, we get to watch Love in a Kings jersey for a year -- which may not be ideal from a basketball standpoint but would be exciting nonetheless -- we get a bunch of cap space when he leaves, and we're back to where we are now in a couple of seasons, only in a sparkling new arena. The only real risk is that the No. 8 pick becomes a star, and when was the last time that happened for the Kings?
Honestly, though, this smells a bit like a marketing ploy. If the Kings had landed a top-three pick, it would be much easier to sell season tickets, I'd wager. Most of us are rather ho-hum about how things turned out in the lottery ("We're number eight! We're number eight!"). Time to think about baseball and other summer pursuits. But the mention of pursuing Kevin Love certainly has created a buzz...
Dime Dropper
All-Star
I'd say there's a solid chance of Vonleh being there at 8 and an outside chance of Randle being there. In which case, make the trade and figure the rest out later.
Livinthedream
All-Star
Its more about marketing to players. Staying active and going after big names could be in attempts to show Gay, IT and DMC just how hard the front office is working to get better. You do want to eventually connect on a big name, but showing effort is important too.
Bringing a big name in and treating him well, regardless of if he stays, allows Sacramento to rebuild their reputation and erase some of the horror stories of the past. Sac is in full rebranding mode. If someone were to ask me what the PDA strategy was, that is where I would start. Hopefully he can build a winning team in the midst of this.
miltonap
Starter
Honestly, I'd rather Trade down and get Capela and Payton/LaVine. The thought of having absolutely no rim protection or defense (the result of getting Kevin Love) and also a bunch of iso players scares me. I feel like PDA and Malone are not on the same page. All signs have pointed to PDA valuing offense a lot more than defense since thats all he talks about, but that's not what wins playoff games. I think Malone is a great coach, but he needs pieces to work with, pieces that fit his philosophy for basketball.
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I wouldn't look at it this way. Whoever Minnesota picks at #8 would be their pick, it wouldn't be our pick. The question would be, looking back, could we have improved our team more by using that #8 pick in a different trade or by picking anybody else available on the board at that time? Should we have kept the players we throw into the Love deal and seen how much they improved? (For instance -- would you rather have Andrew Bynum (All-Star, second team All-NBA center) or Andre Igoudala, Nikola Vucevic, Moe Harkless, and a future pick? That's what Philly gave up for their one year rental.)
Building off what I said before, Love is only on the radar at all because it looks like an opportunity to grab a highly regarded player who seems to currently be available. This might be a good opportunity for us to use our assets to trade up into a different talent level (like we did with Rudy Gay) but if Love is gone in a year, we've wasted a bunch of assets on a pointless detour instead of once and for all settling on what kind of team we think can win in the league and then seeking out players who fit that style of play. The difference this time is we didn't use any future assets in the Gay deal, only spare parts and unwanted contracts. In this case we'd be giving up any real shot of developing our way out of lottery hell. If this gambit doesn't work, we're worse than before -- we have no young talent and less time to figure it out before Cousins starts exploring his options.
We have cap space next year. We add another young talent in the draft right now, look for ways to add more, then start to look at specific targets. Not just guys who are available and have big numbers, but good fit talents we can use to build a winning team. Give Malone a year to work with a team not a revolving door of trade assets. Why get impatient now? I'm all for taking advantage of opportunities while you can, but it looks like we don't even have a plan right now. Just scoop up whatever we can get. Evans/McLemore/Igoudala/Cousins looked like a plan that might work. A good balance of scoring, play making, and defense. For one brief instance it looked like all the waiting might be paying off and then they did a complete 180 and started heading in the opposite direction. I'm still confused.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
You can still work around the Love/Boogie defensive issues. Get some real defensive backcourt options at both PG and SG to limit penetration and a 3rd big who's defensive minded and can pair with either, such as a Robin Lopez, and we're much farther ahead than if we moved down in the draft for unproven talent.
A Love/Boogie pairing simply has too high a ceiling to pass on. It's also much easier to surround those two with 3&D role players than it is to get the stars in the first place.
While on paper it's a poor defensive pairing, it's an outstanding rebounding pairing which is a part of defense. With that in mind, get perimeter defenders to cut down on penetration and force more long/contested jumpers and we'll clean up the glass. There's more than one route to good defense. A shot blocker is one of them, strong perimeter defense and cleaning the glass is another.
I like it! It's a bold move and just what the Kings need to do. They need help now and anyone drafted in the number 8 spot is unlikely to provide that. I can see a huge turn around if it happens. The Kings were better than a 28 win team last year in my opinion. They went through a lot of players and ended up with a pretty good core of IT, Gay and Cousins. If they land Kevin Love I see them making the playoffs and being competitive. Maybe that, a new arena and the rabid fan base will entice Love to sign with the Kings next year. I'm not sure it will happen but it's worth pursuing and I love the fact that Pete is out there and aggressive.
Chupacabra
Starter
We're not going to get Kevin Love. It's not going to happen. You may all stop now.
miltonap
Starter
assuming that McLemore gets traded also, what outstanding perimeter defenders do you suggest we pick up? Obviously we have McCallum, but he's just entering his second year. Who could we realistically get at the these positions? They would have to be really cheap (assuming Gay stays). I get you're thinking and I see how it could work (Miami style ball) but I'm really scared that PDA will not look at it like this. He probably wants to build an offensive powerhouse, which would be a huge fail. Obviously this is just an assumption but has he really done anything (besides getting Mbah a Moute) that shows he cares about defense?
Padrino
All-Star
and, pray tell, what kings-related news should we talk about as the conference finals churn on without us? there are already a number of exhausted threads dedicated to the upcoming draft, as well as a couple of exhausted threads dedicated to the fates of isaiah thomas and rudy gay. the kevin love rumor, while an undeniable longshot in terms of overall probability, is still substantial, and is certainly worthy of discussion in the dead zone before the draft and before the free agency period begins...
thedofd
Bench
But isn't what you're suggesting essentially staying the course? Sure, it's a legitimate strategy, just not all that exciting. Even with consistent lottery picks the Kings have had mixed results. It's true that you can't really evaluate either trades or the draft until some time has passed, but I'm not sure that Bynum example is all that fair, all the red flags there. And the statement about wasting "a bunch of assets on a pointless detour" is only valid in the context of knowing what the final detail would be. The Kings once moved Chris Weber for "movable parts;" this could be a similar case, depending on how it goes down. If it's Thompson, Outlaw, Terry and No. 8 for Love (works on Real GM tradechecker), I wouldn't shed a tear.
Honestly, I don't follow college basketball enough to know whether one of the players who's reportedly going to be available at No. 8 is a difference-maker for them. I assume the Kings' personnel folks looked at all potential outcomes before the lottery was held, and the fact that they've announced to the world that their pick is available leads me to believe that they don't see enough help at No. 8. History certainly could prove them wrong, but as I said in my initial post, I don't object on principle to moving the pick for a proven player. Maybe Love isn't the right guy. I think some people have suggested Al Horford, and that probably makes more sense if he's healthy.
By the way, I think Livinthedream made a good point above. This isn't just about the Kings' ownership showing the fan base that they're trying to make strides but also about showing their own players.
I'm not opposed to trading the pick, but I don't think Love is the right target for us. If we can get Love for Thompson, Outlaw, Terry, and #8 that's completely different. We're still giving up one significant asset for a year of Love with no guarantees, but at that point it's worth the trade-off. It makes this year interesting while we wait for cap space to build with. But I think there's already too many teams in the mix for that kind of a deal to land him.
My main criticism isn't that the front office is making some kind of move (or at least announcing their intention to). It's that I don't see one consistent train of thought which connects all of our front office's moves. I don't think you build a team that way. While we can get marginally better simply by upgrading our talent level, eventually these pieces do have to fit together and play as a team. Rudy Gay is a talented player, but I don't know that he's an ideal fit for this team and I feel the same way about Love. You want to give him to me for free, that's one thing. You want me to give you every 21 and 22 year old I have and that question mark about fit now has significant implications for the future of the team.
There are people who think a #8 pick is worthless and should be thrown into any trade which will get us a moderately effective player so we can stop waiting and get better now. Don't listen to these people. We might not get an All-Star with our pick this year, but a good scouting crew can come up with a solid starter. The fanbase wants the team to win. I don't think the majority of us are naive enough to think that a short-term payoff trumps long-term development. If the possibility of failure (Love leaves or isn't a good match) exceeds the possibility of success (Love stays and thrives next to Cousins) I think it's a bad deal. And if you throw all of your future assets into the bargain, it becomes that much harder to convince Love to stay.
PS - On the Bynum thing, I didn't want him either because his attitude was obviously already a problem and he was injured. But he was just 25, a starter that year on the All-Star team, and second team All-NBA. Now it looks like a disaster of course, but Philadelphia wasn't panned at the time. Some people even praised them for making a bold move to nab a franchise center. We wouldn't be openly panned for nabbing an MVP runner up like Love, but as I pointed out, there are concerns here as well. Questionable fit, no guarantee of re-signing. There's a chance it turns out equally bad for us if the players we give up turn into solid players and Love chooses another city to call home.
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Gary
All-Star
Oh come on..... There is a chance it could happen, but I would think it would be a 3 team deal rather than just the kings and wolves.
Padrino
All-Star
i think the front office is waiting for a "consistent train of thought" to reveal itself to them. that is, i think they're being opportunistic now so that the path forward is made clearer by virtue of what pieces remain when the dust settles from whatever talent upgrades they've managed to achieve. for example, cousins/gay/thomas necessitates a particular "train of thought" about where to go next in building the roster. likewise, cousins/love/gay/thomas or cousins/love/gay or cousins/love/thomas each necessitate a different "train of thought" about where to go next...
if the kings somehow manage to land kevin love, then they have to craft an extremely urgent plan for building a winner as quickly as possible if they are to have any hope of re-signing love next year. but if the kings whiff on the kevin love sweepstakes, then they can be a bit more patient and a bit more deliberate, as they convene on how to proceed with their draft, and whether they intend to keep or trade their pick, as well as how to proceed with rudy gay and isaiah thomas, and whether either or both are to be considered primary cogs going forward...
there's also the possibility that broadcasting what can be had in a potential trade for kevin love is simply an announcement to all front offices around the league that the kings are prepared to deal all available assets outside of demarcus cousins in advance of the draft. it's an aggressive "strategy," but as most suspect, it's unlikely that the package the kings could put together in a trade for kevin love would be enough to seal the deal. however, that package may very well net a different talent via trade, potentially one whose contract status isn't quite as precarious as love's. it could be a rather shrewd move; the kings have set the market price for kevin love, and while many teams are distracted with putting together competing packages for love, the kings can position themselves to deal for a more realistic and viable target...
honestly, there are just too many balls up in the air right now, too many hypotheticals to consider, and too much speculation for the kings' front office to own a "consistent train of thought," because demarcus cousins is literally the only core component in place (among player personnel, that is). all of that said, i agree wholeheartedly with you in that i don't think this is the best way to build a team. after assuming control of the kings, the new regime got steps one and two right: they brought in a coach who stood a chance to get through to demarcus cousins, and then they signed big cuz to a max extension. after that, i've been impressed with their aggression, but not so much with their results, as they've adopted a "wherever the seas of change will take us" kind of attitude to reconstructing the roster around cousins...
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