Kawhi Leonard
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ElRey
Starter
Casspi has some value in a trade, whereas Greene is probably not going to net even a late first round pick. Trading casspi for a mid first round pick is not a bad idea if they can fill a need with that pick.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
I agree with the guy who said he doesn't like SF's who can't really shoot. By the looks of it, Hamilton would be able to help us spread the floor instantly since he is known for his shooting and that will only make things easier for Reke/Cuz/Thornton when all Hamilton has to do is stand at the three and cut to the basket as well. We really have nothing to lose here if we reach a little, so what? If he is the guy we are looking to draft then you draft him period.
Gary
All-Star
It's kind of true though.. Not saying I am like that but people can give off the wrong impression of themselves at job interviews, and in social situations by how they look.. sucks but true.
Please no. Besides, I think Kahn would like him in Minny's backcourt. I heard that somewhere from someone.
*crosses fingers in the hopes that someone passes this to Kahn and he thinks it's a good idea that he initially thought of himself*
Dr. Spaceman
Bench
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I would very much like to get back to basketball. A lot of the personal stuff could be handled via PMs but I suspect that isn't as much fun.
In any case, if we draft any SF, is he considered to be a starter immediately or a guy to come off the bench who might eventually become a starter? I have always seen it as the latter and have assumed a trade or free agency acquisition SF to be the starter. I presume there is no urgency to get this team into the elite category, assuming that is posible, but I think why not now? Is there a valid argument to NOT get the vet instead of developing yet another starter?
If we draft a guy to be a starter, that leaves us with 4 starters under 23/24. There would be the vaunted upside in such a team but do we continuously need a team with upside or can't we have a team with a mixture of old and young and simply have a team that is ready now. I prefer now. The upside team will save money but at some point you pull the trigger, spend more, and go for it.
I assume Reke won't be injured the majority of the season next year and that a team with him, Cuz, Thornton, Dally, and perhaps Iggy is a pretty darn good team. Substitute the name Leonard for Iggy and you have a team much like last year's team.
The Maloofs say they will spend money this summer and it has been said more than once. It seems they want to win now. Given the uncertain future of this team in Sacramento, I think the general public would like to see a great won/lost record to be on board with an arena. I don't think that issue can be ignored.
If we get the vet, does that change the qualities of what we want from a draft pick? My opinon is that it does although I would like to see the draft pick to show signs he can improve and become that ideal SF. I like Leonard because of his energy and desire to improve. To me, an energy guy is nice to have on the bench. It is not common to have a guy on the bench who in one way or another changes the game and I think Leonard could be that guy. I presume there are others.
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
Get out of my brain, baja!I think it's best to get the thread back on track, though. Certain posters have been badly exposed in here and I'll just leave it at that. Ignorance is bliss.
As for Leonard, he's been growing steadily on me. It's a shame I only got to see him a limited number of times during the season. His shooting is the only worry I have - he certainly has the work ethic to improve it substantially, though. Ideally you would like to have more than just one outside threat starting, and if we draft Leonard, Thornton will be our only deep shooter, at least in the immediate. I do like his tenacity, athleticism and work ethic. Seems like a nice guy. And does have some skills, he's a pretty decent passer for a wing.
OK, basketball! I like Leonard, and saw him quite a bit since I'm in the San Diego area, even if I'am in mexico. Mysteriously I just happen to get all the San Diego channels. Its magic! His shot looked pretty good in that workout video. But as you know, there's no replacement for real games. A lot of guys shots look good in practice, but it just never happens in a real game. Not saying thats true for Leonard. We'll see. If he can just develop a good mid-range game that would be enough for me. The kids got a great motor. I'm still more of a Hamilton fan, but I'll trust Petrie.
'89 Kings Fan
Bench
Quincy Douby Career FG% .390?
But to those in the know who is a better defender, Singleton or Leonard?
After watching about a bit of the Draft Combine (ESPN on XBOX is the coolest thing) I was really intrigued with Singleton. Would it be worth it to trade the #7 for Houston's two picks and draft Singleton at #14?
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Singleton is probably the best defender in the entire draft. In college he defended everyone from PG's through PF's. He's blessed with great lateral quickness, and at 6'9" has the height to guard bigs as well as little guys.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
His shooting stroke may be somewhat ugly, but he is a very good athlete. Its his athleticism that has people intrigued. Along with his motor, which never stops.
SacKings7
Starter
I'll admit to being a little ignorant about Kawhi Leonard thus far. I watched some highlights of his, and while I wasn't upset with what I saw, I wasn't really "wowed" either. But I just noticed that he's 6'7", and has a 7'3" wingspan? That's amazing. That'll surely help him at the next level.
ElRey
Starter
I'm of the same sentiment about him. but Maybe he's really what we need, if he's the athletic lockdown defender that people say he is. He sure does have ugly shot though. I'm more excited about Chris Singleton, who can reportedly guard everything except centers.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Hamilton, who isn't susposed to be as athletic as Leonard also posted a 32" vertical. Which isn't really that bad. I'd call it about average for SF's. Also not unusual for a guard to post a higher vertical than a SF. In most cases, year after year, its usually a PG, or a SG that posts the highest mark. Lets face it, there is a point of diminishing return. The basket is only 10 feet high, and Leonard has a max reach of 11'6", which if more than adequate. So is Hamilton at 11'4".
ElRey
Starter
Problem is I haven't seen too many successful NBA players who are just average athletes AND can't shoot.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Shane Battier/Thabo Sefalosha/Bruce Bowen/Mie Udoka etc.
But that is what you begin to talk about if both those things are true. Then a guy almost has to be a defensive stud because he's not going to be terribly potent on the other end. Wondering what if any gap there is betwen Leonard and Singleton.
ElRey
Starter
Brick, aren't most of those guys decent shooters? in particularly i remember Battier, and Bowen being good spot up 3 point shooters.
I agree if you can't shoot and average athlete, then you do need be a defensive stud. so Do you think Leonard is defensive stud?
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MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
Chad Ford mentined something about Leonard taking the vert test completely cold .. no stretching or working out or anything to prepare. Just basically got his shoes on and jumped. Could explain those numbers .. hard to indentify how much better it would be if he was warmed up, but its easy to see how that would effect your vert.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I tend to agree with this, at least on the game part. I don't think you should ignore the fact that someone put up good numbers at the combine, but at the same time, I do think your eye's don't lie. To use James Harden as an example. There were many on this fourm that said he didn't look athletic when he played at Arizona St. I tried to point out that he was a very good athlete, and if you watched enough games, you would see him use his athleticism at times. But most of the time he simply played within himself and only did what he needed to do.
When he went to the combine, he put up great numbers, which confirmed what I believed. So in his case, the numbers meant something. In Leonard's case, I certainly saw him play enough to believe he's a good athlete. I don't think he's in the same catagory as Singleton, but he's a better athlete than Hamilton. I think I should also point out that were talking about NBA athlete's. Not average everyday Joe american athlete's. An average athlete in the NBA is really a superior athlete. He's only average when compared to his peers.
And to answer a question in another post. Leonard didn't take part in any of the shooting drills leading up to physical testing drills. But prior to taking the testing, of which the first test appeared to be the standing vertical, he was over on the side with, I believe Kemba Walker doing exercises to loosen up. How effective that was is anyone's guess.
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
Singleton, while not being an offensive juggernaut, is at the moment a much better outside shooter than Leonard, who seldom took a shot more than 12 feet away from the basket. He's also 2 inches taller, stronger, judging from the bench press, and is more experienced guarding players on the perimiter. I think Singleton is the better athlete, but I think Leonard is the smoother athlete, if that makes any sense. Leonard is younger than Singleton. So its sort of pick your poison. Remember, Leonard is changing positions. He was basicly a PF at SDSU, and played predominatly near the basket. While Singleton has played a little PF on occassion, he mostly played SF at Florida St.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
Based on what I've been reading on these forums up to this point, would it be too much of a reach to take a defensive stud like Singleton? I can't say that I've seen him play or anything like that. Hell, I've been trying to find highlights of the guy on youtube and I can't find much of anything so I really can't speak on if I like his game for this team or not. I just have to base it all upon reading what people say about him. However, I do like the fact that he is supposed to be the best defender in this draft, he's a legit 6'9 and plus he's athletic with a decent shot? I mean wow....if that isn't the ideal SF for our team, I don't know what is.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
OR you can look at Love and tell that his athletic measurements were definitely misleading.
Even if they accurately measure what they're supposed to, there is still so much more athletic traits that they're not testing, and perhaps cannot test. It'd be nice if we can sum up all the different athletic traits into a few numbers, but it's not that simple.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
What Love has is something I understand from personal experience. It was the thing I said about him from the first time I saw him -- he just has a brute strength about him that goes beyond testing. He's a lousy athlete, but every time a ball touches his hands, its just his. When he establishes positoon in the post, he's not moving. And its not something you can necessarily test. Certainly not something that always shows up visually. Chris Bosh or Amare have considerably more defined muscles, but if they ever fought Love he would dismember them and use one of the feet as a backscratcher.
If you've ever seen a world's strongest man competition some of those tests might be the way to ferrret that out, rather than something simple and limited like bench reps. Have these guys all try to pull a car with their teeth or something, you'd separate the men from the boys pretty quick
I've always taken issue with the NFL combine drastically changing a player's stock one way or another but I think the NBA combine is even less relevant. I actually agree with your whole post Bajaden but there's a bit of irony here as you are using the bench press numbers to try and compare strength.
Not that the bench press numbers are useless, but one issue is that guys with really long arms (like Leonard) have a harder time with it. The guys that can really put up weight are barrel chested guys with T-Rex arms. Again, just my issue with giving undue weight to combine numbers vs game tape, especially in the NBA.
That said, I've never got why Leonard has been compared to Marion or Gerald Wallace. He's not that kind of explosive leaper or that quick twitch movement that makes him look like he's playing at a different speed than everyone else. What he does have is an unending motor and tenacity. I'd agree he's a better than average athlete and a smooth one but he's not as explosive as people want him to be. Somewhere between Artest and Marion is a good way to look at it.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
What Love has is something I understand from personal experience. It was the thing I said about him from the first time I saw him -- he just has a brute strength about him that goes beyond testing. He's a lousy athlete, but every time a ball touches his hands, its just his. When he establishes positoon in the post, he's not moving. And its not something you can necessarily test. Certainly not something that always shows up visually. Chris Bosh or Amare have considerably more defined muscles, but if they ever fought Love he would dismember them and use one of the feet as a backscratcher.
If you've ever seen a world's strongest man competition some of those tests might be the way to ferrret that out, rather than something simple and limited like bench reps. Have these guys all try to pull a car with their teeth or something, you'd separate the men from the boys pretty quick
This is the part where I have a conflict with myself. We want people who are "cut" like Howard but Kanter, for instance, against guys his age mind you, just wades through the opposition. If he wants a position, he's got it. I presume it won't be as easy against NBA talent but he has put on a lot of muscle in the last year - what else does he have to do? I am not abdicating anything for Kanter but he seems a bit like that strong bull that can't be moved.
This "Love factor" is what makes Kanter the big unknown with the accent on big. I had heard very little about Love before the draft but knew the name. I didn't hear that he was an unstoppable force. Was anyone surprised at what he became in the NBA? I suspect many except the people who REALLY watched and could translate that properly to the NBA. Not easy. We know less about Kanter.
You also can't test Rodman's nose for rebounding or anyone's for that matter. In an interview, Dennis said he could see where the ball would rebound from when the shot was taken. That makes sense to me as it is physics but how do you measure what made his rebounding different than others? How do you know who can make the instantaneous mental calcualtions and know where the ball will go after it hits the rim AND get there?
The Combine adds extra data to be used with what one sees. That's all. The more we know, the better. The great analysts know how that translates to the court in the NBA.
David Thompson nicknamed Skywalker for his 44" vertical had a brief career destroyed by alcohol and drugs. Maybe now it could have been predicted but back then, no way. He could jump though. Rather remarkable. It didn't define his career.
If we use the 7th pick, and I mean IF and that it isn't used in a trade, we have many options and although there is no guaranteed star available at that position, we don't need a star and as to offense, maybe don't want an offensive machine as a starter. There are enough options that I am sure I will be happy with who we get. They will contribute in one way or another. Just a final paragraph to indicate I am very happy where the Kings are and only Dime Dropper knows that this is a HUGE change in attitude.
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