Josh Smith

[KingsFanSince85]

I've seen rumors suggesting the Hawks are dangling the names of Josh Smith and Marvin Williams as trade chips in an effort to move up in the draft. If true, would anybody find Josh Smith as an appealing fit for this team? He has one year left on his contract at around 13M. If he was willing to sign an extension before the trade, do you think it could be a good move? While Smith is by no means a perfect player, he does bring supreme athleticism, shot blocking and scoring to the table from the SF position. And he won't be 27 years old until December.

The Hawks have the 23rd pick in the upcoming draft. If the Kings could package the #5 and another player or two (not named Tyreke or DeMarcus) for a re-signed Josh Smith and the #23, would you do it?

http://www.foxsportsohio.com/06/19/...ay-10/landing.html?blockID=748790&feedID=3725

According to Sam Amico:

The Hawks are said to be one team placing calls to improve their draft position. They currently own the No. 23 pick. One GM said the Hawks floated the names of both Josh Smith and Marvin Williams as potential trade chips.

 

[Bricklayer]

You KNOW what Smart would do. You absolutely know it.

Josh Smith would be our PF.

Could we do better with that than the Hawks? Oh probably, for a few years until his hops starting not hopping quite so much. And the thing is he's a big gunner. So assuming my guess that he plays PF is correct, he would again trigger a cascade of other roster decisions. Thornton has no place. Now we are back to looking for a non-scoring SF, but maybe a 3pt specialist non-scorer. Who aslo defends? Sigh.

I would take him as our SF on the same theory as Deng, slightly different one than Iggy (who you can run offense through). But that's not the way this franchise/coaching staff is likely to play it.

 

[gunks]

Smoove at PF would be an upgrade over JT/Hayes.

Dude can board, blocks shots, and is a surprisingly good passer. The Hawks frontline issues have more to do with Horford at the 5 than Smith at the 4.

Josh Smith would be the weakside shotblocker we've all wanted here for awhile, and he'll throw in some other good stuff too.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

You KNOW what Smart would do. You absolutely know it.

Josh Smith would be our PF.

I would take him as our SF on the same theory as Deng, slightly different one than Iggy (who you can run offense through). But that's not the way this franchise/coaching staff is likely to play it.

Good point. I didn't consider the Smart factor. Damn, How I loathe Nellie small ball.

Under normal conditions, I would like to see Smith on this team as a SF. But I'd also like to see him accept a dimished offensive role, which he'd likely have a hard time doing.

Let's say he would AND Smart plays him at the correct position, who could the Kings land at #23 to fill another need? Terrence Jones? John Henson? Andrew Nicholson??

 

[The_Jamal]

You KNOW what Smart would do. You absolutely know it.

Josh Smith would be our PF.

Could we do better with that than the Hawks? Oh probably, for a few years until his hops starting not hopping quite so much. And the thing is he's a big gunner. So assuming my guess that he plays PF is correct, he would again trigger a cascade of other roster decisions. Thornton has no place. Now we are back to looking for a non-scoring SF, but maybe a 3pt specialist non-scorer. Who aslo defends? Sigh.

I would take him as our SF on the same theory as Deng, slightly different one than Iggy (who you can run offense through). But that's not the way this franchise/coaching staff is likely to play it.

Josh Smith is a PF and has been his entire career. He's a fantastic defender and the all-holy shotblocker. He's the best defensive PF out of all the all-star caliber PF's in this league.

So I'm not entirely sure why you'd play him at SF

 

[SacTownKid]

Said it years ago on this board, Josh Smith is a PF.

Thornton would probably be fine, Tyreke's the odd man out with Smith here. You can't have Smith and Evans trying to crash the paint and kill all space for Cousins down low.

 

[The_Jamal]

Good point. I didn't consider the Smart factor. Damn, How I loathe Nellie small ball.

Under normal conditions, I would like to see Smith on this team as a SF. But I'd also like to see him accept a dimished offensive role, which he'd likely have a hard time doing.

Let's say he would AND Smart plays him at the correct position, who could the Kings land at #23 to fill another hole?

Again, Josh Smith is a PF and is damn good at it; especially on the defensive end. Why would you move him to SF?

 

[The_Jamal]

#5+Salmons for Smith
Reke+36 for #2 (draft Beal)

IT
Beal
T-will
Smith
Cousins

Offensive spacing, crazy athleticism, defined offensive roles, 4 strong defenders in the lineup around Cousins, and Boogie getting to take control of this team as the dominant #1 option he's looking to be. Totally a pipe-dream, but one can dream right?

 

[mac]

#5+Salmons for Smith
Reke+36 for #2 (draft Beal)

IT
Beal
T-will
Smith
Cousins

Offensive spacing, crazy athleticism, defined offensive roles, 4 strong defenders in the lineup around Cousins, and Boogie getting to take control of this team as the dominant #1 option he's looking to be. Totally a pipe-dream, but one can dream right?

you lost me at Reke + 36 for #2. You must think Beal is the next coming of Jordan to give up Tyreke for just a draft pick. That or you think Tyreke is garbage.

 

[The_Jamal]

you lost me at Reke + 36 for #2. You must think Beal is the next coming of Jordan to give up Tyreke for just a draft pick. That or you think Tyreke is garbage.

Na, I think Beal is the next coming of the Manu/Ray Allen/Harden breed. He's going to be a big star in this league and I absolutely love how he fits as a #2 option to Cuz. Beal is one of the few guys in this draft i'd be willing to deal Reke for

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Again, Josh Smith is a PF and is damn good at it; especially on the defensive end. Why would you move him to SF?

Well, while I'm fully aware that the Hawks play him at the PF position, I've always seen Smith more as a SF. Not only that, it's easier to get away with playing Smith at the PF position in the Eastern Conference than it is in the West. At only 225 pounds, he'd have some of the same issues people are criticizing John Henson about.

Could he hold his ground and guard Blake Griffin, Pau Gasol, Kevin Love, Al Jefferson, Dirk Nowitzki, Luis Scola, Zach Randolph, and LaMarcus Aldridge? Most of those guys are 240+ pounds. That'd be my concern. And considering that he's been in the league 7 years now, I don't think he'll bulk up or fill out too much more

Besides, his defensive skills still translate to the SF position. He's guarded LBJ, Pierce, Carmelo and the like on many occassions.

 

[mac]

Na, I think Beal is the next coming of the Manu/Ray Allen/Harden breed. He's going to be a big star in this league and I absolutely love how he fits as a #2 option to Cuz. Beal is one of the few guys in this draft i'd be willing to deal Reke for

Alright. And I suppose you're just not confident that Tyreke will improve? In which case it'd make sense if you're dead sure Beal will be good but Tyreke won't.

Quick question, how is Allen anything like the other two??

 

[The_Jamal]

Well, while I'm fully aware that the Hawks play him at the PF position, I've always seen Smith more as a SF. Not only that, it's easier to get away with playing Smith at the PF position in the Eastern Conference than it is in the West. At only 225 pounds, he'd have some of the same issues people are criticizing John Henson about.

Could he hold his ground and guard Blake Griffin, Pau Gasol, Kevin Love, Al Jefferson, Dirk Nowitzki, Luis Scola, Zach Randolph, and LaMarcus Aldridge? Most of those guys are 240+ pounds. That'd be my concern. And considering that he's been in the league 7 years now, I don't think he'll bulk up or fill out too much more

Besides, his defensive skills still translate to the SF position. He's guarded LBJ, Pierce, Carmelo and the like on many occassions.

Yes. He can. He's a proven elite PF defender who can block shots, rebound, play the passing lanes, and score. That's not to say he CAN'T switch over to SF during the game and we decide to go big at times. But he's an atrocious outside shooter (worse than Reke) and would only compound or shooting woes by being a full time starting SF.

 

[The_Jamal]

Alright. And I suppose you're just not confident that Tyreke will improve? In which case it'd make sense if you're dead sure Beal will be good but Tyreke won't.

Quick question, how is Allen anything like the other two??

Playmaker in the mold of Manu/Harden with an outside shot in the realm of Ray Allen. And I never said Reke wouldn't improve. I'm just a lot more confident in Beal's game as a whole and as being a much better compliment to Cuz as a #2 option.

 

[mac]

Playmaker in the mold of Manu/Harden with an outside shot in the realm of Ray Allen. And I never said Reke wouldn't improve. I'm just a lot more confident in Beal's game as a whole and as being a much better compliment to Cuz as a #2 option.

Ah I finally understand. See that's like me saying Cuz is a Shaq/Cwebb/Udonis Haslem breed of player. Yiu may want to separate the Harden/Ginobili and Allen shooting, makes far more sense.

 

[Bricklayer]

Josh Smith is a PF and has been his entire career. He's a fantastic defender and the all-holy shotblocker. He's the best defensive PF out of all the all-star caliber PF's in this league.

So I'm not entirely sure why you'd play him at SF

Sigh. You do love your midget ball don't you? You're like the patron saint of anybody too small to play their position.

Being a shotblocker, as you have mentioned, is not the same thing as being a great defender. Smith is undersized as a defender at PF. It hurts him on occasion and I don't even know what to make of best PF defender amongst the All Star caliber ones. Is he All Star caliber? Is he the best amogst all the All Star caliber PFs? Wouldn't say much about the current PFs. He's also not the shotblocker he once was, and that bears watching, because Josh Smith sans hops can't even pretend to be a PF anymore. He's played his entire career there (or most of the last 5 years at least) for a franchise that has flat out failed to find a better answer. But his height (6'7" sans shoes, 6'8.25" with), weight (225-230ish), offensive game (face up jumpshooter), and athleticism have always screamed SF. He basically measures out the same as Rudy Gay except Gay had 3 more inches of wingspan. And his shotblocking, impressive as it has been for an off the ball SF type, is less valuable as a lane clogger because he doesn't pose much of a barrier until he leaves his feet. He can give you the nice help block, certianly once gave you a ton of great help blocks, but he can't clog your lane the way a big shotblocker can.

On the flipside of course his ballhandling and lateral mobility may not be up to snuff for a SF, which is how he ended up a tweener. but I'll take having great length at SF over having not enough at PF any day. Course if you do do that, his shaky 3pt shot does not help our shooting situation and...

P.S. after running over them in my mind, I think you might be right about the All Star caliber PFs.. Which says a lot more about what a one dimensional bunch the current crop has become than it does about Smith. Tim Duncan was a great defensive PF, Keving Garnett was a great defensive PF. Josh Smith...gives you an effort.

 

[Boogie-havoc]

Are we working under the assumption that Josh Smith will resign with us?

If so, I disagree with that assumption.

And Josh Smith is a PF(Aslong as that shot of his remains as bad, very possible scenario). Can he give you spot minutes at SF? yes. Can/Should he be a fulltime SF? absolutely not.

His offensive game is that of a PF, and while in a perfect world where he works hard on his game and improve his weakeness he would be a fantastic SF(though I have my doubts with him against the quick 3's - a huge advantage he has playing the 4, where I think he also excels more on defense) - people need to understand that's just not gonna happen.

 

[DesertFox]

Yeah, Josh Smith is a PF. Playing him there is not exactly "midget ball," he's just a slightly undersized 4 who can play the 3 in some situations. Marvin Williams is usually the guy who defends the other team's top player. Smith has trouble keeping up with quicker wings, and his biggest strength is nullified at the 3 if he leaves SF's open to provide help D.
Size sounds good on paper and works when you have guys with a legit advantage, but you can't just plug guys in and play them there, as with playing small ball and hoping to just outrun the other team. Doesn't work.

 

[roasthawg]

If Josh Smith is available and would sign with us (not gonna happen) then you make a play for him. Good players are good players and he's far from old. Look how KG and Ray Allen worked out for the Celts. Neither of them had won anything before and both were older than Smith when the Celts traded for them. The Celtics weren't any good either.

 

[The_Jamal]

Sigh. You do love your midget ball don't you? You're like the patron saint of anybody too small to play their position.

Being a shotblocker, as you have mentioned, is not the same thing as being a great defender. Smith is undersized as a defender at PF. It hurts him on occasion and I don't even know what to make of best PF defender amongst the All Star caliber ones. Is he All Star caliber? Is he the best amogst all the All Star caliber PFs? Wouldn't say much about the current PFs. He's also not the shotblocker he once was, and that bears watching, because Josh Smith sans hops can't even pretend to be a PF anymore. He's played his entire career there (or most of the last 5 years at least) for a franchise that has flat out failed to find a better answer. But his height (6'7" sans shoes, 6'8.25" with), weight (225-230ish), offensive game (face up jumpshooter), and athleticism have always screamed SF. He basically measures out the same as Rudy Gay except Gay had 3 more inches of wingspan. And his shotblocking, impressive as it has been for an off the ball SF type, is less valuable as a lane clogger because he doesn't pose much of a barrier until he leaves his feet. He can give you the nice help block, certianly once gave you a ton of great help blocks, but he can't clog your lane the way a big shotblocker can.

On the flipside of course his ballhandling and lateral mobility may not be up to snuff for a SF, which is how he ended up a tweener. but I'll take having great length at SF over having not enough at PF any day. Course if you do do that, his shaky 3pt shot does not help our shooting situation and...

P.S. after running over them in my mind, I think you might be right about the All Star caliber PFs.. Which says a lot more about what a one dimensional bunch the current crop has become than it does about Smith. Tim Duncan was a great defensive PF, Keving Garnett was a great defensive PF. Josh Smith...gives you an effort.

I shouldn't be surprised. I figured you might be willing to add one of the elite defensive PF's in the game next to Cousins, but you're obsession with height wins outagain. He's not just the best defender amongst All-star caliber PF's....Outside of Ibaka, there isn't a better PF defender in the game today. What proof do you have that he shouldn't be a PF other than your stupid obsession with height?


KG and Duncan are both C's now, which is a big reason they both were able to have great seasons. They can't hang with the speed of the PF position anymore.

 

[The_Jamal]

Are we working under the assumption that Josh Smith will resign with us?

If so, I disagree with that assumption.

And Josh Smith is a PF(Aslong as that shot of his remains as bad, very possible scenario). Can he give you spot minutes at SF? yes. Can/Should he be a fulltime SF? absolutely not.

His offensive game is that of a PF, and while in a perfect world where he works hard on his game and improve his weakeness he would be a fantastic SF(though I have my doubts with him against the quick 3's - a huge advantage he has playing the 4, where I think he also excels more on defense) - people need to understand that's just not gonna happen.

Well, that's why this is mostly a pipe-dream. I wouldn't take a chance on this deal without an extension, and I would be a bit skeptical having to pay him 12 mil+ (which is what he'd command). He's worth it, but the Maloofs would never spend the money, and we got to think about extending Cousins in the very near future

 

[Bricklayer]

I shouldn't be surprised. I figured you might be willing to add one of the elite defensive PF's in the game next to Cousins, but you're obsession with height wins outagain. He's not just the best defender amongst All-star caliber PF's....Outside of Ibaka, there isn't a better PF defender in the game today. What proof do you have that he shouldn't be a PF other than your stupid obsession with height?


KG and Duncan are both C's now, which is a big reason they both were able to have great seasons. They can't hang with the speed of the PF position anymore.

You wouldn't know an elite defensive PF if it came up and bit you apparently. Your fascination with smallballers really is kind of ridiculous. Duncan and KG got old BTW. And KG was still a PF until injuries forced him on over. If you don't think that in their prime they'd dominate defensively at PF with today's watered down crop of PFs...its kind of hopeless.

Height, weight and game, other than that Smith's a perfect PF. I mean who doesn't want to give up 2-3 inches and 20-30 lbs at PF for a guy with no post game?

Now here are points in both directions, both backed by numbers:

1) Josh Smith is NOT a great man defender. How can that be. Well hate to say it, but he's too small. And when he switches onto a center, it gets ugly. Same problem as IT, only at a larger positon. No flexibility upward. Except since Smith is a midsized player, he can at least provide coverage/flexibility downward to SF. Evidence for this, other than watching games without a Napoleon complex, is in a stat I don't entirely trust. Opponent PER. In the last 4 years this is what Smith's opponent PFs have done (they only list Opp PER for the last 4 years):
Opponent's PER (average NBA PER = 15)
08-09: 19.7
09-10: 19.9
10-11: 17.2
11-12: 15.7

hey, its trending right, but not once has he even held his opponents to NBA average PER. Please don't bore me with what a stopper he is. He's not. And yes, its mostly due to his size. Guys can get position on him, and they can go over him when they have him pinned to the ground with body contact. Until this year his size also hindered him on the glass, making him a below average per minute guy.

2) okay, now for the flipside, and one of the reasons why I don't like Opp PER. In all 4 of those years Smith had a positive +/- for his team, and more importantly in all 4 years his team was better defensively with on the floor than off. That BTW, for those who continue to be in denial, is the power of the shotblocker. His own men can get their numbers, but Smith's help defense makes all his teammates better defensively. This is similar to the Henson predicament. Henson will make your team defense beter, but can he stop his own guy? The difference with Smith is that we have years of numbers saying that on balance the help defense outweighs his man defense, at least for the Hawks.

P.S. if Smith could continue rebounding at the pace he did this year with Horford out, that would cover a major hole in his game.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Are we working under the assumption that Josh Smith will resign with us?

If so, I disagree with that assumption.

In the initial post of this thread, I mentioned the contingentcy of Smith re-signing prior to the deal being made. Without that occurring, it's much ado about nothing. However, if the Hawks are serious about trading Smith in order to move up in the draft, they must believe they can get him to re-sign. I have no inside info, but I'd still venture to guess that if he's offered a contract in the neighborhood of what he's making now, he'll sign it.