Jason Thompson's foul issues

Catalyst

G-League
Jason Thompson lead the league in fouls last year.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/playe...d=Y&yearsExp=-1&sortOrder=2&splitDD=All Teams

The Kings do not have a lot of depth with their front court, and Jason's fouls have already limited his playing time this year on multiple occasions. If you've watched a few games this season, you've probably seen the guy pick up a number of dumb fouls.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Thompson, but what exactly is wrong with him? I can't imagine the coaching staff didn't touch on this multiple times, so why does this continue to be such a prominent problem?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but is it THAT difficult to avoid picking up fouls as a PF in the NBA, or does Jason just absolutely no clue how to play defense without fouling?
 
I just don't think he's that good. Looking at his post moves on offense, and his tendency to be foul prone, as well as his inability to finish around the rim, I just don't think he's got it in him to be a great PF. He will be a role player, potentially a good role player, but he won't ever be a great PF.
 
He's really not that athletic and lacks explosion to be a great PF(Has many shots blocked and mostly dunks 2 handed).

However, defensively. Even if you have average athletism, if you're 6-11, you can most certain play decent defense. I think the dude just forgets he's 6-11 and doesn't use position and his size as well as he should. Maybe he's still transitioning mentally from the guard to PF growth spurt thing.
 
I think the more important aspect is blocks/foul ratio--normally when you hack at such a high level that's accompanied by some blocks, but JT was averaging less than 1 last year through 82 games. If you get big minutes in your rookie season and you put up that sort of ratio, that ratio doesn't really change significantly for the rest of your career. Cut through the foul clutter and it you can see that he's an NBA-caliber rebounder, at the minimum, but that also reveals his defense--still needs major work, both in terms of individual and team defense. His problem is really at two levels--he needs to reign himself in and not operate as a hustle type all the time, thus reducing the fouls, and if he even rectifies that problem he'll need to start showing real fundamentals on defense, which might be an even longer road to reach. He technically has the mobility and good enough athleticism to compete defensively, but it's all mentality.

This high energy play extends to the rest of his game--he gets tons of setup passes and actively looks to dunk, and his pursuit of offensive rebounds leads to tons of tip-ins. But normally, if you dunk that much, you normally finish around the basket at 60%--Thompson hit only about 54%, which really shows how much his dunking is masking his true finishing ability. He's only a poor to average finisher (46%) around the basket taking away his dunks and tip-ins, gets quite a few of his inside shots blocked, and also shows surprisingly poor touch in tip-ins; his dunking indicates that he has some level of athleticism, but his other finishing abilities seem to indicate a lack of length/playing too fast for his own good. What's truly amazing is how often he got his mid-rangers blocked--he was the league leader in 2-pt jumpers blocked last year. He's actually a very good 15-20 foot mid-range jump shooter, so imagine if he actually slowed down the game in his mind he could be far better in this area.

Thompson's actually an interesting player--there's masking involved on both ends of the court. Masking bad defense through foul trouble. Masking real finishing ability through the amount of dunks he accumulates. But even through that masking, he's capable--as noted, he's a NBA rebounder, he's probably one of the better players in the league in accumulating dunks and tip-ins through his hustle play, he's got a pretty nice long mid-range jumper, and from what I've seen this year, he's actually showed some passing ability (would be a nice little wrinkle to his game too). It seems like so much is based upon his hustle play on both ends of the court that I can't really see him deviating from it too much, however--it's almost like a bad habit in that it sort of lowers a considerable upside because he's not going to play enough to warrant star minutes at his fouling rate, and he's largely confining himself to bouncing around the basket. Based on the hurdles he has to overcome if he wants to be that level of special, I can't see him being anything more than a fine 4th/5th man hustle player on a good team. It would really take radical changes of certain elements of his game to become more than that.
 
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Moves too much. Mean that seriously. All that bouncing around -- never in full control and attracts all kinds of ref attention. Now bit of a bad example because obviously all time great and all that, but watch Tim Duncan play defense. Is he bouncing around like an idiot? No. He's big, he's stronger than he looks, and he knows how to position himself. Jason seems to confuse hyperactivity with good defense, and ofttimes the harder he tries the less effective he gets. Rarely has a player wanted to be good so bad with such poor results.

Two side issues BTW are that he's not long, and he needs to do some more work in the weight room because he's not rock strong either. Both play into things a bit by forcing him to move around all the time trying to get better position to challenge a shot or recover his defensive post position. But he's hardly the first player to have those types of issues, and most of them didn't threaten to lead the league in fouls two years in a row.
 
His problem is really at two levels--he needs to reign himself in and not operate as a hustle type all the time, thus reducing the fouls, and if he even rectifies that problem he'll need to start showing real fundamentals on defense, which might be an even longer road to reach. He technically has the mobility and good enough athleticism to compete defensively, but it's all mentality.

Interesting take here, what you said makes sense. Big hustle players usually pick up a lot of fouls because of their style of play and being so young he probably wouldn't have good fundamentals on defense, so he'll pick up a lot of dumb fouls by being out of position.

Now I'm curious if this will be a large problem for his whole career, or if it's something he can temper.
 
I believe Thompson would be a decent roleplayer down the road, but his whining and foul problems away from the ball are just killing this team right now... Kind of tired of his antics already, and wouldn't mind packaging him with an expiring to get a prospect, or a draft pick. It's really annoying seeing him in the refs face on every call.
 
Moves too much. Mean that seriously. All that bouncing around -- never in full control and attracts all kinds of ref attention. Now bit of a bad example because obviously all time great and all that, but watch Tim Duncan play defense. Is he bouncing around like an idiot? No. He's big, he's stronger than he looks, and he knows how to position himself. Jason seems to confuse hyperactivity with good defense, and ofttimes the harder he tries the less effective he gets. Rarely has a player wanted to be good so bad with such poor results.

Two side issues BTW are that he's not long, and he needs to do some more work in the weight room because he's not rock strong either. Both play into things a bit by forcing him to move around all the time trying to get better position to challenge a shot or recover his defensive post position. But he's hardly the first player to have those types of issues, and most of them didn't threaten to lead the league in fouls two years in a row.

I think this hyper-activity also explains his problems on offense as well. He tries to make the moves so fast that he loses control of himself and is off just enough that his shot bounces off the rim. I could live with his foul problems more if he were more efficient at putting the ball in the basket.
 
I think this hyper-activity also explains his problems on offense as well. He tries to make the moves so fast that he loses control of himself and is off just enough that his shot bounces off the rim. I could live with his foul problems more if he were more efficient at putting the ball in the basket.

Yup. Surprisingly gets tons of jumpers blocked, gets but misses tons of tip-ins, and his finishing ability in what is anything other than a dunk is pretty poor. Ties back to the "playing too fast for his own good" issue, because he does have the athleticism to finish.
 
Thompson fouls too often, there's no question. But one of the reasons that Thompson led the league in fouls last year is that he got a reasonable number of minutes. If you look at fouls per minute, at least 40 games played, Thompson was 38th in the league. Not stellar by any means, but certainly not the worst, and quite a good bit behind both a guy we would love to have on our team (Greg Oden) and a guy we may not have realized was more of a foul machine than JT before we got rid of him (Mikki Moore).

My point is, we should probably stop thinking that Thompson was the single worst offender on that front. Most players who have a tendency to get into foul trouble don't get so many minutes to keep racking up fouls, but our team was in a "special" position last year to play a foul-prone rookie big minutes.
 
Moves too much. Mean that seriously. All that bouncing around -- never in full control and attracts all kinds of ref attention. Now bit of a bad example because obviously all time great and all that, but watch Tim Duncan play defense. Is he bouncing around like an idiot? No. He's big, he's stronger than he looks, and he knows how to position himself. Jason seems to confuse hyperactivity with good defense, and ofttimes the harder he tries the less effective he gets. Rarely has a player wanted to be good so bad with such poor results.

Two side issues BTW are that he's not long, and he needs to do some more work in the weight room because he's not rock strong either. Both play into things a bit by forcing him to move around all the time trying to get better position to challenge a shot or recover his defensive post position. But he's hardly the first player to have those types of issues, and most of them didn't threaten to lead the league in fouls two years in a row.

That makes some sense. It also explains getting getting bad ref calls. He's bouncing around so much the ref doesn't know whether he has position or not. The ref is giving the offensive player the benefit of the doubt in that situation.
 
I just don't think he's that good. Looking at his post moves on offense, and his tendency to be foul prone, as well as his inability to finish around the rim, I just don't think he's got it in him to be a great PF. He will be a role player, potentially a good role player, but he won't ever be a great PF.
Look at how he runs and look at his footwork and you'll see a similarity with Dennis Rodman. A little bit of polishing and he could become a Rodman type player. No post moves on offense, mediocre at best in finishing around the rim, but a monster in rebounds because of quickness and determination to get the ball. Of course, he also has to learn not to be so foul prone when defending.

Rebound, rebound, rebound....and he will be great.
 
Moves too much. Mean that seriously. All that bouncing around -- never in full control and attracts all kinds of ref attention. Now bit of a bad example because obviously all time great and all that, but watch Tim Duncan play defense. Is he bouncing around like an idiot? No. He's big, he's stronger than he looks, and he knows how to position himself. Jason seems to confuse hyperactivity with good defense, and ofttimes the harder he tries the less effective he gets. Rarely has a player wanted to be good so bad with such poor results.
I think the Kings just doesn't have good trainers to teach their players. What we need are trainers who can emphasize the importance of learning the fundamentals in playing basketball. We can see this deficiency in the Kings organization, especially in the case of Thompson who we all can see giving his all-out effort in improving himself.
 
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Lol, I love all this "Jason is a decent role player at best stuff" coming out now just because he hasn't managed to dominate at all so far. As soon as he puts up a 20 and 10 game its going to be back to "JASON IS CARLOS BOOZER 2.0". I think its pretty obvious he isn't going to just be a role player. His potential in my mind is on the Alrdridge, Nene, Al Horford level (not like them, just as good as them). He might not turn out like exactly that good, but I have my doubts that he is just going to be Chris Wilcox at best.

Oh, and as far as the bad calls go. I think he is just active, combine that with the fact that he gets inexplicably destroyed by the refs night in and out and he is doomed to failure.
 
its kinda funny watching him play... he doesnt move like someone that is 6'11... he runs low to the ground like a sprinter.... its hilarious. you can tell when he is thinking about his size or when he is just reacting instictively. he fouls a lot because like everyone has said... he flails around a lot. he needs to calm down, randolph is 3 inches shorter than thompson yet had no problem posting him up. he got a couple of bs calls called on him but he wouldve gotten the same number of fouls regardless.
 
Like most people here said.. He just needs to slow his game down. He needs to know when to switch on the hyper gear and when to play a more control type of game. He is hurting himself by playing in hyper mode the whole time.
Alot of his fouls seem to be when another post player is backing him down, hell either get a reach in or he will go for a block. He needs to be more in control on those plays and not leave his feet as much trying to block a shot.
His rebounding is great, his handles are great, his passing is surprisingly good this year and he needs to keep taking that 16-20 foot jumper.

and most importantly he needs to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL1lfSzgcAw
 
Some talk about his hustle as if it's a bad thing. It's a very good thing. How many 6'-11 PF is willing to dive on the floor? In fact, how many PF even stands close to 6'-11? JT is a keeper. As for the fouls, he is only in his second year. It's part of the learning curve. By the second half of the season I'll be surprised if Thompson is still as foul prone.

As for his finishing around the rim; don't worry, he's a good finisher. He's just rushing things right now; again, just part of the learning curve.

There may be some minor adjustment needed but overall, JT is on the right track.
 
Some talk about his hustle as if it's a bad thing. It's a very good thing. How many 6'-11 PF is willing to dive on the floor?

I don't think anyone's down on his productive hustle, only the hustle that accomplishes nothing much.

In chess, if you make a move or two that don't really DO anything, and your opponent's decent, it may well cost you the game. Basketball isn't so extreme as that, obviously, but when I used to teach martial arts (which is a bit closer), I emphasised a style which made no unnecessary movement. I'd spar with people from other traditions, and even boxers and so on, and they'd be bouncing all over the place, while I just relaxed and waited for them to get close enough to clobber. They'd be sweaty in minutes, while I could fight like that all day. If a sparring match went on long enough, I had no trouble putting my energy into a sudden offensive burst to finish them off, since I'd still be fresh when they were panting.

I'm all for Jason being an energy guy, but I see no harm in having him spend that energy a little more wisely. Endurance is a wonderful thing, but nobody has so much that they should squander any of it.
 
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Yeah, his heart and hustle isn't a problem. He just hasn't realized how to maximize his talents. Not only is he taller than most pf's he's also quicker from what I've seen. Like I said in my other post, he doesn't run like a bigman. He runs like a normal sized person. Once he figures out how to use his body he will be a pretty good player. That's probably why he played so well against the warriors, they all play at thompsons pace, frantic and hyper-active...
 
To chime in here again quickly, I wasn't intending this as a, "Bash the heck out of Jason Thompson thread!" I'm actually a fan of his, I think he has a lot of potential, but the foul thing was just something that has really stood out in a bad way to me so far.

He's missed A LOT of easy shots so far this season, and I can't see that issue staying with him the whole year, these are shots almost any NBA player could make, so they're going to go down with time.

I actually see this guy having quite a bit of potential, Kings Faithful made a pretty good assessment when he compared him to Nene, Aldridge and Al Horford. I think he has the skills to be around that good, possibly a little better or worse.

Tonight's game against the Hawks should be an interesting one. They're also a young front line, but looking like they're going to be a very good team. In theory, you'd think Thompson would be able to play without getting into any ridiculous foul trouble against these guys...
 
JT. Position, position, position. Keep your hands off your man. Quit reaching in.
Did I miss anything. I'm sure the coaches have told him this countless times, but when he gets in to the game he tries so hard he just makes DUMB mistakes and before you know it he is out of the game.:eek:
 
JT gets reb, dribbles length of court, weaves between defenders, drops off to Hawes for quick 2. Jerry says, "Well there goes Magic Thompson!!"
 
JT has done a pretty good job tonight. Maybe he needs to clunk down on the court early in every game just to settle him down?
 
JT has done a pretty good job tonight. Maybe he needs to clunk down on the court early in every game just to settle him down?

I hate the stupid little things he does sometimes. Tonight in crunch time he couldnt score a wide open followup layup . He was right under the rim with nobody around, and he AIRBALLED it. Is it the inexperience? That was pathetic
 
I hate the stupid little things he does sometimes. Tonight in crunch time he couldnt score a wide open followup layup . He was right under the rim with nobody around, and he AIRBALLED it. Is it the inexperience? That was pathetic

so you're perfect at what you do? Sorry but I think you're way off base. Jason is young, he's still learning and his game is showing improvement but he's not ready for all-star status quite yet and it's really unfair to put that kind of onus on him.

Yes, it's inexperience but he's shown a lot of hustle and effort tonight and I'm going to give him credit for it.
 
it's a pretty high bar being set when a second year PF drops 22-10-5-2-1 with 0 turnovers and gets called pathetic.

Fantastic game by JT tonight. When he stays on the court he does great things!
 
it's a pretty high bar being set when a second year PF drops 22-10-5-2-1 with 0 turnovers and gets called pathetic.

Fantastic game by JT tonight. When he stays on the court he does great things!
Yeah. I guess we should send him to reno so he can get it together in the d-league. :D
 
I will say it one more time...On average, it takes three years for a big man to develop. JT is just starting his second year. He runs the floor extremely well for a big man. Has very good passing skills. His post skills are limited right now, but they'll get better. NO, he doesn't have a 40" vertical, but his vertical is more than adequate for a guy his size. He has very good lateral movement. Yes, he has flaws, but there all correctable. My god, have some patience people.

Its one thing to critique him. Its another to say he should shipped out because he'll never be any good. Thats pure lunacy.. He's going to have nights like last night where he goes 22 and 12 with 5 assists. And, he's going to have nights that will make you want to pull your hair out. But as the season goes on, we should see more games like last night. I'm by no means saying that Thompson is going to be a superstar. What I'am saying is that we should be patient enough to see what he will become. What I don't want to see is him playing in the all star game in another uniform..
 
I hate the stupid little things he does sometimes. Tonight in crunch time he couldnt score a wide open followup layup . He was right under the rim with nobody around, and he AIRBALLED it. Is it the inexperience? That was pathetic

There's a lovely airballed 5-foot layup 10 or 15 seconds into this video, hoisted by Michael Jordan. He misses the rim by a good foot and a half. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvSUbvdWbRk
 
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