IT = Rumor of 3/24 offer from Pistons

[Kingster]

To begin with, I personally wouldn't pay him more than 5 mil. But even if the market thinks he's worth more than 6, I don't think he's worth more than 6 to the Kings. We already have Rudy Gay and DeMarcus Cousins. Not many teams have as dominant an interior force as Cousins - Thomas could bring more value to their teams than he does to ours (by the way, we've seen his value for 3 seasons now; his playing style isn't going to change).

It's not about what you believe he is worth. It's about getting the maximum value for him if you don't want him. If there is a cluster of market value around $8 mill, they should sign him to $8 mill, even though with all their wisdom they believe he is not worth what the market is telling them. Then they can trade him for value at $8 mill down the line. If, however, there is a Tyreke situation and there is an outlier that wants to pay him $9 mill whereas the cluster of teams is at $8 mill, then they're screwed, just like with Tyreke.

Personally, I believe this Cousins/Gay talk as the be-all-end-all nonsense. So SA has Duncan and Leonard. I guess they don't need Parker? Tell that to SA. You need multiple playmakers on your team, just like SA. Gay is certainly no playmaker; Cousins could be if he put his mind to it. Stauskas might be. McCallum maybe. That's a whole lot of maybies. Unless they totally luck out with whomever their sign and trade partner happens to be, they come out of it worse off.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

We're already over the cap (as I just explained in this post in another thread), Gay opting in took care of that.

The real issue is whether re-signing IT takes you into the luxury tax, and if you use the non-taxpayer MLE you can't make any more moves that would take you into the "apron," or $4 million above the tax line. If using an exception would take you over the apron, you only get to use the taxpayer MLE, which is $3.2 million.

So you're the Kings have that 5.15 MLE right now?

IF that is the case, it might be enough to nab Livingston if that IS their plan.

 

[Jkbiker]

One team willing to overpay at 8 million does not set the market at 8 million. I'd be curious to see the other numbers.

Of course, it is curious that the team is Detroit. Did we need to have them give IT an 8 million offer in order to be able to bring back Smith in return? The conspiracy theorist in me says yes.

Hmmmmm IT at 8 mil and JasonTerry at 5.4 mil is right at 14Mil Josh Smith - coincidence?

Then Ben,Jason Thompson,Outlaw for Rhondo to get him at 13 Mil?

OMG yes we have a big 4, Rudy,Josh,Rhondo are best buddies

But we have 4 players at 60 mil?

Cuz,Acy
Josh,Landry,Evans
Gay,Dwill
Staskas
Rhondo,Raymac

So 4 players 60 mil
5 players at 21 mil

Where do we get 4 players to get to league min of 13-14 contracts?

 

[LPKingsFan]

So you're the Kings have that 5.15 MLE right now?

IF that is the case, it might be enough to nab Livingston if that IS their plan.

Yes, my understanding is that they can use the non-taxpayer MLE right now (well, technically when the moratorium ends, but you get the idea ).

The problem with using it when you're close to luxury tax land, though, is that it makes the "apron" effectively a hard cap (link).

 

[SacKings2002NBAChampions]

Hmmmmm IT at 8 mil and JasonTerry at 5.4 mil is right at 14Mil Josh Smith - coincidence?

Then Ben,Jason Thompson,Outlaw for Rhondo to get him at 13 Mil?

OMG yes we have a big 4, Rudy,Josh,Rhondo are best buddies

But we have 4 players at 60 mil?

Cuz,Acy
Josh,Landry,Evans
Gay,Dwill
Staskas
Rhondo,Raymac

So 4 players 60 mil
5 players at 21 mil

Where do we get 4 players to get to league min of 13-14 contracts?

Not happening.

The only deal I see happening is the Rondo one OR Josh Smith one. Not both. It's too dampening on our CAP space, unfortunately. Especially because Rudy Gay did not want to sign a new contract which was expected and is understandable.

 

[Glenn]

Sure are giving a lot of credit to a front office that hasn't shown much except a penchant for playing little bro to the Warriors.

I understand your complaint however I think the comparison of Nik to Klay is a stretch. I think Gay and Cousins blow the comparison apart.

 

[Hallama]

Would you take back Brandon Jennings in a S&T for IT?

Asking because he may have value as a trade chip and might be the best asset in return. Horrible shooter, but he did have avg 7.5 assists with a 3-1 TO ratio.

 

[sdballer]

Would you take back Brandon Jennings in a S&T for IT?

Asking because he may have value as a trade chip and might be the best asset in return. Horrible shooter, but he did have avg 7.5 assists with a 3-1 TO ratio.

F no! If you're going to pay 8m for an undersized, non defending score first pg, keep the efficient one you already have.

 

[upinsmoke]

Would you take back Brandon Jennings in a S&T for IT?

Asking because he may have value as a trade chip and might be the best asset in return. Horrible shooter, but he did have avg 7.5 assists with a 3-1 TO ratio.

OMG NO. I can't post the link here because of the profanity laced lyrics playing in the background but search "brandon jennings nick young" on youtube and you can see a video clear as day of Jennings offering Nick Young drugs in a club and Young decline it. Not the kind of guy we need here.

 

[Hallama]

lol, yeah, just throwing that out there...

 

[sdballer]

It's not about what you believe he is worth. It's about getting the maximum value for him if you don't want him. If there is a cluster of market value around $8 mill, they should sign him to $8 mill, even though with all their wisdom they believe he is not worth what the market is telling them. Then they can trade him for value at $8 mill down the line. If, however, there is a Tyreke situation and there is an outlier that wants to pay him $9 mill whereas the cluster of teams is at $8 mill, then they're screwed, just like with Tyreke.

Personally, I believe this Cousins/Gay talk as the be-all-end-all nonsense. So SA has Duncan and Leonard. I guess they don't need Parker? Tell that to SA. You need multiple playmakers on your team, just like SA. Gay is certainly no playmaker; Cousins could be if he put his mind to it. Stauskas might be. McCallum maybe. That's a whole lot of maybies. Unless they totally luck out with whomever their sign and trade partner happens to be, they come out of it worse off.

We still don't know market value for IT yet. We have one offer first reported by bruski that has been repeated by other sources. For all we know everyone else is in the 5-6 range.

 

[captain bill]

IT is not a potential all-star - that's a pretty ludicrous statement. Nor is he a better defender ("pound for pound") than DMC - IT is a negative defensively and DMC, last season, at least, was our best defender. Which isn't saying a lot, but he was pretty effective.

It's ludicrous to say a guy who averaged 20 & 6 in his 3rd season is a potential all-star? His size might stop him from being a long-term starter but at the very least give him 6MOY potential.

You don't seem to understand what I mean by pound-for-pound. Thomas is a smart defender who puts out effort, and plays admirably despite being undersized against literally everyone. Cousins has elite defensive potential, but if he put in half the effort that Isaiah brings every day, he'd be a DPOY candidate.

 

[Dime Dropper]

It's ludicrous to say a guy who averaged 20 & 6 in his 3rd season is a potential all-star?

Yes, given the context.

His size might stop him from being a long-term starter but at the very least give him 6MOY potential.

He absolutely has 6MOY potential and I wouldn't argue otherwise. He can easily be an elite 6th man.

You don't seem to understand what I mean by pound-for-pound. Thomas is a smart defender who puts out effort, and plays admirably despite being undersized against literally everyone. Cousins has elite defensive potential, but if he put in half the effort that Isaiah brings every day, he'd be a DPOY candidate.

We shall just agree to disagree that IT is a "smart defender" who "puts out effort". I think quite the opposite.

 

[sdballer]

You don't seem to understand what I mean by pound-for-pound. Thomas is a smart defender who puts out effort, and plays admirably despite being undersized against literally everyone. Cousins has elite defensive potential, but if he put in half the effort that Isaiah brings every day, he'd be a DPOY candidate.

Bs. Not sure what games it fans were watching last year but as someone who graded him on multiple occasions, this effort myth has to end. He was frequently the first guy to quit on a play, lazily rotate and then watch as the defense collapsed.

 

[captain bill]

Yes, given the context.



He absolutely has 6MOY potential and I wouldn't argue otherwise. He can easily be an elite 6th man.



We shall just agree to disagree that IT is a "smart defender" who "puts out effort". I think quite the opposite.

Fair enough, those are reasonable points and we can agree to disagree on them.

But I still don't understand why people want to see him go. If there's a very good S&T on the table, I would take it. But our roster is so devoid of talent, I don't see how we can just let him walk, especially when it's about $6mm vs $8mm. We can always trade him later.

 

[Bricklayer]

Would you take back Brandon Jennings in a S&T for IT?

Asking because he may have value as a trade chip and might be the best asset in return. Horrible shooter, but he did have avg 7.5 assists with a 3-1 TO ratio.

Ha, between Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings we could reconstruct everything that went wrong with the Pistons last year over here. I don't think there's a team left in the NBA still on the Jennings bandwagon. You take him, you're stuck with him.

 

[Bricklayer]

It's ludicrous to say a guy who averaged 20 & 6 in his 3rd season is a potential all-star? His size might stop him from being a long-term starter but at the very least give him 6MOY potential.

Potential All Star in the same way Nate Robinson, Corey Maggette and Monta Ellis were potential All Stars.

 

[Gary]

So you're the Kings have that 5.15 MLE right now?

IF that is the case, it might be enough to nab Livingston if that IS their plan.

I have a feeling that other teams with MLEs will be more attractive than us.

 

[ockingsfan]

I have a feeling that other teams with MLEs will be more attractive than us.

Yes. That is why the Kings need to over pay guys that should be getting a little lower than MLE, the full MLE. This happened last year with Carl Landry, he was worth maybe $4 or $4.5mil a year but we had to give him the full MLE to come here.

I think the Kings will have to do that again this year to get someone like Darren Collison or Mario Chalmers if IT walks.

Therefore, Kings may have to just match any offer for IT, upto about $8mil, unless they get a S&T for IT with a Point Guard coming back (hopefully Rondo).

 

[rainmaker]

It's ludicrous to say a guy who averaged 20 & 6 in his 3rd season is a potential all-star? His size might stop him from being a long-term starter but at the very least give him 6MOY potential.

Look at the numbers Aaron Brooks put up as a MIP. Houston fans thought he was a potential All Star too. How did that work out? Nick Young also put up big numbers in Wash. Kevin Martin....the list goes on.

Have to look beyond the numbers. IT is a starting level PG for some teams, a 6th man candidate for most.

 

[Albatros]

Good video on IT here from draft express.

Pretty much nails his pro's and cons.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Isaiah-Thomas-2014-Free-Agent-Scouting-Video-4649

 

[CurseOfTheSalmons]

Look at the numbers Aaron Brooks put up as a MIP. Houston fans thought he was a potential All Star too. How did that work out? Nick Young also put up big numbers in Wash. Kevin Martin....the list goes on.

Have to look beyond the numbers. IT is a starting level PG for some teams, a 6th man candidate for most.

ha do any of those guy's numbers actually compare to IT's?

 

[rainmaker]

ha do any of those guy's numbers actually compare to IT's?

Brooks 09-10:
19.6/5.3/2.6 43% FG, 40% 3pt, 82%FT, 35.6MPG at age 23

Isaiah last year:
20.3/6.3/2.9 45% FG, 35% 3pt, 85%FT, 34.7MPG at age 25

Yes, this compares. And Brooks being younger had more of an upside argument.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

Good video on IT here from draft express.

Pretty much nails his pro's and cons.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Isaiah-Thomas-2014-Free-Agent-Scouting-Video-4649

fast forward to 8:02 in that video. he got power driven couldn't do squat about it

 

[CurseOfTheSalmons]

Brooks 09-10:
19.6/5.3/2.6 43% FG, 40% 3pt, 82%FT, 35.6MPG at age 23

Isaiah last year:
20.3/6.3/2.9 45% FG, 35% 3pt, 85%FT, 34.7MPG at age 25

Yes, this compares. And Brooks being younger had more of an upside argument.

16 PER not exactly 20 PER. heck, isaiah's PER has never been lower than 17.5. brooks has never put up better than that, nor has he ever put up a TS% better than IT. IT has three straight years of this.

never mind though. i can pick and choose any stats i want so this isn't a good way to decide who IT compares with.

 

[SacTownKid]

16 PER not exactly 20 PER. heck, isaiah's PER has never been lower than 17.5. brooks has never put up better than that, nor has he ever put up a TS% better than IT. IT has three straight years of this.

never mind though. i can pick and choose any stats i want so this isn't a good way to decide who IT compares with.

Brooks is an excellent comparison really. The main difference between the two is that Brooks didn't go iso, drive into the paint, and get to the line as much which is the difference. Not sure you want your PG doing that as a third option anyway.

 

[captain bill]

Look at the numbers Aaron Brooks put up as a MIP. Houston fans thought he was a potential All Star too. How did that work out? Nick Young also put up big numbers in Wash. Kevin Martin....the list goes on.

Have to look beyond the numbers. IT is a starting level PG for some teams, a 6th man candidate for most.

Brooks just fell off the face of the earth. I honestly don't know how to explain that, because he was a good player.

Nick Young shot 40% and had more turnovers than assists. I didn't watch him then but his stats were garbage on a garbage team. And he continued to put up empty garbage stats in LA last year.

Kevin Martin invented the "swing-through" method to get fouls, which allowed him to score massive amounts of points before the rest of the league caught on. He's a slightly-above average shooter otherwise.

Outside of IT, Gay, and Cousins, we have no players who are bona fide NBA rotation players. How can you possibly justify letting him walk away for nothin?

 

[Dime Dropper]

Semi-related note since IT is linked with Detroit:

Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA 2m
Jodie Meeks has agreed to a three-year, $19 million-plus contract with the Detroit Pistons, league sources tell Yahoo Sports.

How much cap space do Detroit even have? That is a ridiculous contract btw, Meeks is definitely not worth that. They're going to regret that.

 

[sdballer]

Semi-related note since IT is linked with Detroit:



How much cap space do Detroit even have? That is a ridiculous contract btw, Meeks is definitely not worth that. They're going to regret that.

Thought they had around $20m.

Also signed Cartier Martin.

 

[CurseOfTheSalmons]

Semi-related note since IT is linked with Detroit:
How much cap space do Detroit even have? That is a ridiculous contract btw, Meeks is definitely not worth that. They're going to regret that.

holy bonzi, i thought that tweet was about us.