Glenn
Hall of Famer
We don't know what the new CBA will be. Maybe the capspace will disappear with the new CBA and we will be one of the teams in good shape. Nobody knows.
Is this the worst Petrie miscalculation that you've ever personally witnessed?
- Thread starter Anthony1
- Start date
We don't know what the new CBA will be. Maybe the capspace will disappear with the new CBA and we will be one of the teams in good shape. Nobody knows.
Hoovtrain
All-Star
Yes, they have the same cap space as they did before, but do you really think they are going to go spend money on an AK-47 type when they just brought in Salmons and have a glut of SF's on the bench? I just don't see them doing that. I hope I am wrong though.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
That's a tough call. By spending it all, you send a message that you're at least serious about trying to win. But if you spend it all on the wrong players and it doesn't work out, it could backfire. Keep in mind, this year's FA class isn't that great. It would be wise to keep 15 million or so under the cap for 2012 when Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Dwight Howard, and Andrew Bynum will all be free agents.
Thank you. He used to be a really good defender now he's maybe slightly above average. I don't think enough people watched him the last couple years in millwaukee. He's much slower and really doesn't play defense at that much higher a level than Garcia or donte when he's actually trying. And he's an ok shooter but not the spot up type that is going to open things up on the court. When those are his strengths and we already know his certain weaknesses, how anyone can justify this move perplexes me.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
lol
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
I have to ask, what's the fascination with Andrei Kirilenko? I keep seeing him mentioned as if he's the ideal FA the Kings could have gotten. If he's the biggest FA prize out there, then I don't see what all the fuss is over. He was way overpaid in Utah where he never played up to expectations and his numbers have been down the last three or four seasons. All indications are he's the kind of player who peaked in his mid 20s and is now on an early decline. If you compare his numbers to Salmons’ last season, I don't even see how a case can be made that AK 47 is the better player.
AK 47
30 years old
11 points
5 rebounds
3 assists
1 block
1 steal
Salmons
31 years old
14 points
3 rebounds
3 assists
1 steal
0.5 blocks
Not that great a difference really.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Defense per 100 poss courtesy of 82games.com (negatives are good, positives bad)
10-11: -2.6
09-10: -4.5 (Bucks) -5.3 (Bulls)
08-09: +3.9 (Bulls) +3.9 (Kings)
If anything his defense has picked up since he left Sacto and bevome more consistent under defensive coaches who demand it and who have used him as a stopper. Its the damage he does on the other end that has been the concern.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Its the clasic John Hollinger mistake. You don't measure AK47s by their numbers. Nor Shane Battiers. Nor any defensive player. Robert Horry was crap on paper. Then he tore your heart out. For a roleplayer its all about defense, teamwork, fit. Salmons has the skills, but he doesn't fit anywhere because he's a selfish turd. That has to change for this to work.
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
Exactly! I think this trade was as much about moving Beno to make room for Fredette, as it was aquiring someone to shore up the SF position. And as you stated, it only cost $1.5 million.
sidney
Starter
I noticed this earlier today. The gap between them statistically is not that huge. Salmons is a better 3 PT shooter too which will help spread the floor. Both good defenders. Surprisingly both with the same assist numbers. Big issue is Salmon's mentality / attitude. I think it can work but the coaching staff needs to really lead these guys effectively this year and get them to buy into a system and their roles. They won't lead themselves.
Hoovtrain
All-Star
I don't think comparing #'s is a good way to compare the 2, or any players for that matter. I think Salmons numbers are and always have been inflated. AK-47, IMO, is a far superior player who brings so much more to the table. He is an excellent defender whose length allows him to play multiple positions on the frontline. He is able to distribute the ball well for a SF and he can knock down the jumper. The biggest thing for me though is that he doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective, unlike Salmon's. He can fit seamlessly into any team with all of the intangibles he provides. You mentioned that he had peaked, not sure if peaked is completely accurate, I just think he just is what he is. He was never going to be a dominant scorer. He is more of a jack of all trades. I may also be a bit biased because I despise Salmon's game, but even if he had never played for us, I would still take AK-47 over Salmon's any day of the week.
Wuster
Starter
It's all a best guess situation. If Knight does not fall, it is a brilliant move. If he does (he did), it looks like a mistake. Hindsight is always 20/20. The organization will always spin things in a good light - you can't blame them.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
This is the tricky part. And to be honest, having Westphal as the coach doesn't make me optimistic about the outcome. Westphal has a habit of letting veteran players do what they want to do out on the court. Especially those with big salaries. As they say, there's only one ball. We know that Cousins is unselfish. He'd just as soon pass the ball for an assist as shoot the ball. Contrary to what folks think, Fredette is an unselfish player. If he has someone open, he'll pass the ball rather than shoot it. Unfortunately he didn't get many opportunities at BYU.
If Westphal can get Salmons to play a resticted role, then all will be well. If not, then we'll have problems.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
Certainly numbers are relevant when a player is touted as the best available at their position in the league. AK or players like him aren't some special breed where suddenly stats become irrelevant. I don't buy the baloney about "intangibles", either. Stats are a direct, objective reflection of what a player does on the floor. If AK were that much better than Salmons, his numbers would reflect that.
If AK 47 is so great, why were the Jazz never able to get out of the west even when AK had Deron Williams, Carlos Boozer, and Paul Milsap as teammates?
sidney
Starter
Totally agree with this. Westphal has to step it up this year. He has the tools but he has to get the guys to buy into their roles.
Arco Arena
Bench
What big names did we go after and offer the most money to yet still refused because they genuinely didn't want to come here? Bonzi actually turned down our initial offer because he and his agent played hardball and thought they could get more money. Sacramento withdrew it's offer, he got screwed, fired his agent, and grasped whatever contract he could get.
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Arco Arena
Bench
If we're talking about traditional tiers such as tier 1 = superstar, tier 2 = star, etc., yes.
John is not a second tier player. He's about fourth/fifth tier.
MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
The other problem with Salmons is that he really only performs as a starter. If his ball dominance hurts our team so much to the point where Westphal puts him on the bench, you will now get nothing out of him besides 3 years of dead weight.
I will never forget how frustrating his last year or so here was. Cisco was up and coming, and seemed to be the better team player for a stretch there, but he was forced to play off he bench because pouty Salmons gave you absolutely nothing from bench. It was like watching two different players. He seemed so disengaged as a bench player. That just screams selfishness to me.
Guys like Beno, Cisco, JT .. they will give you everything they can every night. Starter or bench player. A player like John Salmons can really just deflate the locker room of all positivity and optimism.
We can hope Westphal gets through to him, but that is more wishful thinking than anything. I dont know how happy or unhappy he was on the Bucks last season with his semi-reduced role, but if he didnt like that he will hate it here. He'll most likely see even less looks on the Kings then he did with the Bucks.
I will never forget how frustrating his last year or so here was. Cisco was up and coming, and seemed to be the better team player for a stretch there, but he was forced to play off he bench because pouty Salmons gave you absolutely nothing from bench. It was like watching two different players. He seemed so disengaged as a bench player. That just screams selfishness to me.
Guys like Beno, Cisco, JT .. they will give you everything they can every night. Starter or bench player. A player like John Salmons can really just deflate the locker room of all positivity and optimism.
We can hope Westphal gets through to him, but that is more wishful thinking than anything. I dont know how happy or unhappy he was on the Bucks last season with his semi-reduced role, but if he didnt like that he will hate it here. He'll most likely see even less looks on the Kings then he did with the Bucks.
I'm unsure whether Knight or Fredette will end up the better player, and have never championed either one. That said, I appreciated what Beno brought to the team (on his better nights, anyway). John Salmons, on the other hand, was someone who I was delighted to think would never be in a Kings uniform again. When I judge draft day as a whole, I can only conclude that we paid 3 draft positions to get something which had negative value. That is beyond moronic. If the Maloofs hadn't already destroyed most of my emotional connection to the team, I'd be livid.
Please sign me up for an irrevocable, lifetime membership in the "Geoff should retire now" club.
They ran into the Lakers and Spurs, but no body is claiming AK 47 is great. He's just not a high usage player compared to Salmons.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I think actually, and this is a guess but a logical one, that from our perspective we WANTED to draft lower, since we knew our player was there anyway, and this way we could save an extra half mil a year in cap room. I'm sure that took no urging at all to sell to the Bucks, but I have a feeling that once we decided on Jimmer, if you had jsut laid the #7 pick and #10 pick out on the table in front of us and said which one would you prefer to have, we'd have taken the #10 as being more valuable to us. Represented the same player, only cheaper.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Impossible to answer.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Well NOW you are running down a who's who list of overrated players. You know what all of those guys have in common? I could drop 50 on them. And I couldn't drop 50 on my mom. Why did they never come out of the West? How aobut because they never had the best team. Never had the size inside, the defense, aside from Andrei. Just never as good as the Lakers or Spurs.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
But people keep saying things like they blew their chance to sign AK, Prince, Battier, etc. as if those guys are way better than Salmons. I just don't see how any of them are significantly better players than Salmons. You could certainly argue they'd be a better fit than Salmons and I actually agree with that, but acting like Salmons is garbage and AK, Prince, Battier are all gold is just ridiculous. People are letting their Salmons hate get in the way of any rational perspective. The bottom line is the Kings got a SF that's considerably better than any SF they had and I think that's a positive, not a negative.
Arco Arena
Bench
All pre-draft reports pointed that we were extremely high on Brandon Knight and that he was on the top our wish list. All the pre-draft reports in 2009 were that we weren't very impressed by Rubio but very impressed with Evans.
Don't buy the propaganda coming out of the organization right now, of course they are going to say the guy they got was the guy they wanted.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
I just don't think they would have taken a chance on losing Knight if they really wanted him. These guys aren't amateurs. If Knight was really the guy they wanted they would have made the trade contingent on Knight not being there at 7.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
You would have to point to those pre-draft reports. I suspect what you'll find is what they probably say is that the writer THINKS we should be high on Knight because he'd fill this need or that need. But from what I was hearing -- specific reports -- the guy we were blown away by was Jimmer.
Now of course we were also blown away by Quincy Douby 5 years ago and passed on Rajon Rondo to take him. But nonetheless I don't recall any hints at all of a KNight or Walker leaning form inside the organization itself. And the capper of course was a trade you would not have made if you were realy after one of them.
I'm curious to see what happens with Knight really. Didn't watch much of him in college. Seen the highlights, and he doesn't look like anything special at all. Am puzzled what all the hype is about. He hits that ugly shot, but what else does he do above average? Guess we'll find out in the fall...or wiht the potential lockout, maybe the winter.
Hoovtrain
All-Star
Baloney huh? Ok. Here are stat lines for Billy Owens and Scottie Pippen for the 3rd year in the league. Based on your logic, Owens would be just as good as Pippen, right?
Pippen: 15.4 PPG, 1.2 BPG, 2.4 SPG, 5.1 APG, 6.3 RPG
Owens: 15.6 PPG, 0.8 BPG, 1.1 SPG, 4.3 APG, 8.4 RPG
Arco Arena
Bench
OK, what free agents have refused an offer of ours that was the highest?
People get confused when superstar players won't come here. Guess what, it's because we aren't offering the most money. Everybody is offering the same money to them (max), so of course their decision ends up resting on secondary reasons. There are exceptions, but money will always be the primary reason.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
Let's try and refrain from strawmen here. First of all, Pippen's numbers would have been higher than that if he weren't playing second fiddle to the greatest player of all time. Second, I didn't say that equal stats means equal players. Obviously all players don't exist in a vacuum where they all have equal opportunity to score, rebound, pass, etc. My point was simply that stats aren't irrelevant or meaningless. That doesn't mean there aren't some players with relatively poor stats that are a value to their team, obviously there are. But it also doesn't mean that good stats should be dismissed as meaningless. If someone is touting player A as being much better than player B and player A and B have similar stats and play similar roles, then there's certainly reason to question that person.
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