Interest in Chuck Hayes?

[Glenn]

I am staggered how quickly people forget what it is like to not have a 7 footer shot blocking force on the team.

With Sammy D, we no longer resembled a team that allowed their opponents to practice their lay up drills. We locked down the paint and started playing some really good basketball towards the end of last season. Now all of a sudden Sammy D is no longer good for us because there is this 6'6 midget who has similar stats but nowhere near the intimidation of Sammy D.

Newsflash people, there is a reason why a contender like Miami is showing interest in Dalembert and not Hayes and it has nothing to do with their similar stats. You pay for what you get!

If we lose Dalembert, that tells me that this team is NOT serious about winning and we will NEVER win anything until we have an interior defender like Dalembert on our team. Someone that will block shots and intimidate the opposition. There is only a small number of players that can play with Cousins in this league. We have one right under our nose and all of a sudden we would be happy to let him go?!

Great thinking people! I look forward to Chuck Hayes intimidating Pau Gasols and Andrew Bynums of this world with his shot blocking prowess

You saved me the need to comment.

Happy also to see a similar rant re: Thornton by Brick.

My goodness folks, when a team has found what they need why do we start looking elsewhere? What was wrong with both Dally and Thronton to suggest we should be looking for a replacement? Tell me, please! The team that already has players that fit has an advantage in a year with a shortened pre-season and a shortend season. Roles are defined and the feeing out period is down to close to nil.

We have the makings of a very good team. Why rip it up by swapping in players that at this point only theoretically will fit with this team?

 

[ParniValjak]

First, lets not exaggerate. You can't pick up fouls left and right in 2 minutes of one game, and even if you could, its certainly not an indication of anything. Its just one game. I have hope for Whiteside in the future. But that aside, I still desire having Dalembert on the team, and I'd certainly have him ahead of Hayes on my list. But I should point out that Hayes is rated by synergy.com as one of the top post defenders in the league last season. And he was rated ahead of Dalembert. That said, Dalembert brings things that Hayes is incapable of. Two things I do like about Hayes over Dalembert is that he's a much better passer, and he never demands the ball. And I think he's to be commended for that. I think for you to describe him as no better than a towel waver is ridiculous. I'd rather have Dalembert as well, but that doesn't mean I have to denigrate Hayes to make my point.

How about this. Lets wait till we see what the final roster is before getting our panties in an uproar. It cracks me up how people are ready to lynch someone over something that hasn't even happened.

Well no offense but 2 fouls in 2 minutes is a pretty much a definition of picking up fouls left right and center!

Also as much as I like Whiteside, he is yet to show that he belongs in this league let alone that he is capable of producing, especially as soon as this season as Dally's replacement. The kid has struggled in the D-league but people still prefer to make excuses for him - its all Muss' fault!

Answer me one simple question, on a Dallas team, would Hayes be a significant cog in their wheel or would he be as I described a towel waver?!

No disrespect to Hayes as I have a great deal of respect for people who get the best out of themselves despite their limitations. He reminds me of Brockman in terms of what he brings to the team and I love Brockman but not as a regular rotation player.

Dally is our only defensive big capable of producing NOW and not in 3-5 years time (Whiteside). He is the only shot blocker capable of intimidating now and not in 3-5 years time so forgive me if I would like to see my team keep a player who we have cried out for since Keon Clark left the town.

I for one am sick and tired of watching lay up drills every time we play. Despite a poor record for the first time in a decade we looked like a team that could play interior defense and not allow the lay up drills because we have a defensive anchor that changes the opposition's attack. Lose that and you are back to square one with no chance to ever winning the ultimate in this league. When you say Chuck Hayes, I think of Bryan Skinner a good 4th or 5th role playing big on a good team or a rotation guy on lottery teams.

Like I have said, I would be interested in Chuck Hayes as a veteran presence that will come in and bust some skulls when needed but only as a 4th or 5th big on this team. Not a rotation guy who will replace one of the best shot blockers in the league who has proven to be a great complement to our biggest budding frontcourt star.

Whiteside is for down the track but we need to start winning NOW! The problem with 5 year plans is that they are more often than not followed by another 5 year plan. We have done out time at the bottom, collected talent that makes difference via drafts and trades and cleared the cap room to make it all come together. The time to start winning is NOW and there will be no excuses because we have everything that we need to make it happen.

And for people that are whining about what Dalembert is going to cost, there is a reason that type of player is payed that much. Its because they matter and they are a point of difference on the defensive end of the floor. With Dalembert, Evans and Salmons (and hopefully a SF FA signing) we have a chance to be one heck of a defensive team that has everything. Lose Dalembert and you lose shotblocking, a key ingredient for a successful team.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

2 minutes played, 2 fouls: http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/4262/hassan-whiteside

So possibly left and right, or left and center, or right and center, but certainly not left, right, and center.

 

[Warhawk]

So possibly left and right, or left and center, or right and center, but certainly not left, right, and center.

I was just waiting for someone to say it.

 

[bajaden]

Well no offense but 2 fouls in 2 minutes is a pretty much a definition of picking up fouls left right and center!

Also as much as I like Whiteside, he is yet to show that he belongs in this league let alone that he is capable of producing, especially as soon as this season as Dally's replacement. The kid has struggled in the D-league but people still prefer to make excuses for him - its all Muss' fault!

Answer me one simple question, on a Dallas team, would Hayes be a significant cog in their wheel or would he be as I described a towel waver?!

No disrespect to Hayes as I have a great deal of respect for people who get the best out of themselves despite their limitations. He reminds me of Brockman in terms of what he brings to the team and I love Brockman but not as a regular rotation player.

Dally is our only defensive big capable of producing NOW and not in 3-5 years time (Whiteside). He is the only shot blocker capable of intimidating now and not in 3-5 years time so forgive me if I would like to see my team keep a player who we have cried out for since Keon Clark left the town.

I for one am sick and tired of watching lay up drills every time we play. Despite a poor record for the first time in a decade we looked like a team that could play interior defense and not allow the lay up drills because we have a defensive anchor that changes the opposition's attack. Lose that and you are back to square one with no chance to ever winning the ultimate in this league. When you say Chuck Hayes, I think of Bryan Skinner a good 4th or 5th role playing big on a good team or a rotation guy on lottery teams.

Like I have said, I would be interested in Chuck Hayes as a veteran presence that will come in and bust some skulls when needed but only as a 4th or 5th big on this team. Not a rotation guy who will replace one of the best shot blockers in the league who has proven to be a great complement to our biggest budding frontcourt star.

Whiteside is for down the track but we need to start winning NOW! The problem with 5 year plans is that they are more often than not followed by another 5 year plan. We have done out time at the bottom, collected talent that makes difference via drafts and trades and cleared the cap room to make it all come together. The time to start winning is NOW and there will be no excuses because we have everything that we need to make it happen.

And for people that are whining about what Dalembert is going to cost, there is a reason that type of player is payed that much. Its because they matter and they are a point of difference on the defensive end of the floor. With Dalembert, Evans and Salmons (and hopefully a SF FA signing) we have a chance to be one heck of a defensive team that has everything. Lose Dalembert and you lose shotblocking, a key ingredient for a successful team.

I think I said that I want Dalembert, so your preaching to the choir. All I was really saying was there was no need to disrespect Hayes in order to make your point about wanting Dalembert. To be honest, I want Chandler, but that doesn't seem likely at the moment. As for Whiteside, to say that he hasn't proven he belongs in the league, is a DUH statement. He hasn't yet had a chance to prove anything. As it turned out, he was injured in D-League, and I don't know when that injury occured, so I'm not sure how good or bad he was or might have been without that injury, and without Musslehead as a coach.

So rather than criticize him, I'm willing to give him a pass. Essentially, this is almost like his rookie year, and I'm going to treat it as such. My expectations are low, and they should be. And maybe he'll surprise us all.

Now, as much as I want Dalembert, I personally don't want the Kings to overpay for any player, and that includes Dalembert. My price would be between 8 and 10 million a year. If he wants 15 million a year, then I wish him well in his life and say goodbye.

 

[Jaylee209]

If Dalembert wants max money, then I say signing Hayes is a decent back-up plan. Maybe the MLE for a 2 years...I think that's a decent pan. Also next years FA is significantly better than this years. I trust Petrie not to overpay for any of these overrated FA's. None of them deserve max money. Dalembert is perfect what he does, but not for the price I suspect he might be looking for.

 

[Tyndel]

I actually watched some of Whiteside in the dleague and he got injured in March I believe. Early on he was foul prone like any new big man but he was getting it sorted as he played. He was played erratically by Muss he would play all of 10 min in a game and have 0 or 1 foul but muss would have a small lineup of dleaguers in there.

We talked about this last year Muss wanted to win to get back to coaching the real players again and so that was his focus(and maybe he had a chip against the kings) and we wanted him to bring WS up with some playing time and it wasn't happening. It would have been better for Whiteside to practice with the team and pick up Darnell Jacks minutes last year then what happened in reno. I would like Cousins and WS to learn together cause if all goes well in 5 years they will be our big guys inside and if it doesn't all go well at least we learn now when we are still not winning then later when we are against the cap and need to win. Players need to play to grow. How much did Cousins learn on the floor last year? We all saw him click sometimes and while he has a high bb IQ I bet he learned more on the floor then in practice.

We all remember Gerald Wallace right?

 

[Uncia03]

I have no interest in seeing Dalembert replaced by Hayes.
However, I'm not willing to pay Dalembert more than 10/11 million a year. If he's asking for more, then I'd let him walk.
If we don't get one of the main FA bigs, then I'd consider signing Hayes, but not as a big minutes guy.

Think about it. We have Cousins who is our star big. And we currently have 3 bigs we can surround him with.
JT - Solid big, probably better off the bench as our PF/C.
Hickson - Athletic, but a complete unknown for our team. Could be a defensive liability, and most certainly won't bring the shotblocking we need.
Whiteside - Also an unknown at this time. Athletic, great shot-blocker, but could be a defensive and offensive liability due to BB IQ.

I'd personally rather give Whiteside 15 minutes a night next to Cousins to see if he can develop into our PF of the future, then bring in Hayes to take those minutes.
I'd also rather see Hickson get 20+ minutes a night to see if he can be starting material next to Cousins, or a better option off the bench than JT.

So while I want to re-sign Dalembert, if we don't re-sign him, I'd rather next year be about seeing if anyone on our current roster can be the piece next to Cousins, rather than bringing in someone else as a stop-gap and taking up the minutes.

Hayes would be fine as a situational big, to provide post-defense when needed, but if we brought him in, I'd like to see a lot of DNPs when he wasn't needed, rather than seeing 25+ minutes every night, while Whiteside is getting DNPs and JT/Hickson ending up with 15 minutes a-apiece.

 

[ParniValjak]

I think I said that I want Dalembert, so your preaching to the choir. All I was really saying was there was no need to disrespect Hayes in order to make your point about wanting Dalembert. To be honest, I want Chandler, but that doesn't seem likely at the moment. As for Whiteside, to say that he hasn't proven he belongs in the league, is a DUH statement. He hasn't yet had a chance to prove anything. As it turned out, he was injured in D-League, and I don't know when that injury occured, so I'm not sure how good or bad he was or might have been without that injury, and without Musslehead as a coach.

So rather than criticize him, I'm willing to give him a pass. Essentially, this is almost like his rookie year, and I'm going to treat it as such. My expectations are low, and they should be. And maybe he'll surprise us all.

Now, as much as I want Dalembert, I personally don't want the Kings to overpay for any player, and that includes Dalembert. My price would be between 8 and 10 million a year. If he wants 15 million a year, then I wish him well in his life and say goodbye.

I am not disrespecting Hayes! I am calling it as it is and you have conveniently ignored my question on whether Hayes would be a significant role player on last season's Dallas team.

My towel waving comment is a reflection of where Hayes would fit on such a team. After all, that is where I want my Kings to be and not the mediocre team that consistently makes the play offs just to make up the numbers.

On Whiteside, lets not paint him into something that he is not. By no means am I writing him off but at the same token, I am not banking our entire future at a VERY important position on a player who played 2 minutes and picked up 2 fouls last year. Whiteside is a project player. A very intriguing project player with size, athleticism, length, skill and excellent timing in blocking shots. But the fact is he has proven nothing and this is on a 24 win team where every player on the roster got a chance to play reasonable minutes at some point in the season. Whiteside struggled this year and he is long way from showing that he can cut it at this league. You earn your opportunity and for what ever reason he didn't do that last year. He was always going to take a while and might not even make it. But like you I am more than willing to give him a chance as he is a perfect long term replacement for Dalembert. That is if he reaches the sort of potential he was picked for. Having said that, I am not prepared to give the keys to an extremely important defensive role on the team to an unproven player who is all potential.

I think we have the same view on things but where we disagree is that you think that I am disrespecting Hayes because I called him a towel waver and orange peeler on a strong contender. On the sort of team I want my Kings to become, Hayes is a 4th or 5th type big and not a key cog in the wheel.

FWIW, I also believe that reasonable contract for Dalembert is in the $8 to $11 million range per year.

 

[Uncia03]

On Whiteside, lets not paint him into something that he is not. By no means am I writing him off but at the same token, I am not banking our entire future at a VERY important position on a player who played 2 minutes and picked up 2 fouls last year. Whiteside is a project player. A very intriguing project player with size, athleticism, length, skill and excellent timing in blocking shots. But the fact is he has proven nothing and this is on a 24 win team where every player on the roster got a chance to play reasonable minutes at some point in the season. Whiteside struggled this year and he is long way from showing that he can cut it at this league. You earn your opportunity and for what ever reason he didn't do that last year. He was always going to take a while and might not even make it. But like you I am more than willing to give him a chance as he is a perfect long term replacement for Dalembert. That is if he reaches the sort of potential he was picked for. Having said that, I am not prepared to give the keys to an extremely important defensive role on the team to an unproven player who is all potential.

First of all I agree completely that Whiteside is a project with long-term potential. And that is potential that might never be reached. I think that is why we signed him to a 4 year deal, to see if we could develop him.

However, I have major issues with the area that I bolded above. The reason why he didn't get any playing time last season was that he was injured basically the entire season. Add those injuries with the severe log-jam we had with the bigs, and there are your reasons for him not getting any playing time.

Whiteside sat out of pre-season games with a strained patellar back in October.
He was re-habbing that injury and ended up being diagnosed with a partially torn patellar in late January, then had surgery to correct the issue in early March.

From December 1st till January 22nd we played 25 games. Darnell Jackson, who served as our 4th big, ended up playing an average of 3 minues a game. That shows what our log-jam was like for the bigs before Landry was traded.

We traded Landry in February, so when the log-jam that we had for our Bigs was taken care of, Whiteside was already out for the season.

Whiteside is definitely a project. I most certainly want to re-sign Dalembert and am willing to probably go up to 10 million for him.

But if we can't re-sign Dalembert, I would rather try and give Whiteside 15+ minutes a game to see if he can be the player we need him to be. There is no way that you can remotely look at last year and think it's any indication of where he could be going into this new season. (Just look at Blake Griffin who basically missed his entire first year. And NO I'm not comparing Whiteside to Griffin!)

 

[bajaden]

I am not disrespecting Hayes! I am calling it as it is and you have conveniently ignored my question on whether Hayes would be a significant role player on last season's Dallas team.

My towel waving comment is a reflection of where Hayes would fit on such a team. After all, that is where I want my Kings to be and not the mediocre team that consistently makes the play offs just to make up the numbers.

On Whiteside, lets not paint him into something that he is not. By no means am I writing him off but at the same token, I am not banking our entire future at a VERY important position on a player who played 2 minutes and picked up 2 fouls last year. Whiteside is a project player. A very intriguing project player with size, athleticism, length, skill and excellent timing in blocking shots. But the fact is he has proven nothing and this is on a 24 win team where every player on the roster got a chance to play reasonable minutes at some point in the season. Whiteside struggled this year and he is long way from showing that he can cut it at this league. You earn your opportunity and for what ever reason he didn't do that last year. He was always going to take a while and might not even make it. But like you I am more than willing to give him a chance as he is a perfect long term replacement for Dalembert. That is if he reaches the sort of potential he was picked for. Having said that, I am not prepared to give the keys to an extremely important defensive role on the team to an unproven player who is all potential.

I think we have the same view on things but where we disagree is that you think that I am disrespecting Hayes because I called him a towel waver and orange peeler on a strong contender. On the sort of team I want my Kings to become, Hayes is a 4th or 5th type big and not a key cog in the wheel.

FWIW, I also believe that reasonable contract for Dalembert is in the $8 to $11 million range per year.

At what point did I paint Whiteside into something he's not?????? I think I said my expectations were low!!!!!!! Did you fail reading comprehension? If not, stop reading things into what I wrote. As for conveniently avoiding your question about the role Hayes would play on Dallas or any top team in the league. I didn't avoid it, I don't give a damm! I'm not here defending Hayes. How many times do I have to say I want Dalembert, Chandler, Gasol, etc. on the team. I have no idea how many minutes he would get. All I know is that he averaged 28 minutes a game with Houston. Anything beyond that is subjective.

As for Whiteside, yes he's a project. If you read any of my pre-draft predictions, you would have seen I said he was a project then. He's a natural shotblocker who has a decent 15 foot jumper. Beyond that, not counting what he may have worked on this off season, he's a work in progress. But to say he didn't show, or accomplish anything his first year is like saying Blake Griffin didn't accomplish anything his first year.

As for respect, here's my rule. If you wouldn't say it to their face, then its probably disrespectful. I seriously doubt you tell Hayes that he's nothing but a towel waver and a orange peeler to his face.

 

[JB_kings]

Centers who get minutes make big bank in the NBA. Remember Dalembert got 13 million from the Kings last year. So for him, 10 million is pretty good drop off.

 

[SacTownKid]

I don't have the stats in front of me, but the difference in our points scored and points allowed was dramatic. It was close to 6 points a game, and your not going to win too many games with that big a spread. We did fine in rebounding +/-, but once again got in trouble in the difference in the assists and turnovers area. We scored around 100 pt's a game but allowed around 106 pt's a game. That has to change if were going to make an kind of dramatic improvement. Now if you look at the last 20 games of the season those numbers are quite different, and thats reason to be optimistic. And, thats the reason I want both Dalembert and Thornton back.

We had something going at the end of the season, and I'd hate to throw that away without finding out just how much better we can be. We traded Casspi for Hickson. Casspi contributed little last year. One can argue as to why and who to blame, but at the end of the day, he had little to do with how we finished the season. So subtracting him from the equation means little. Adding Hickson could be a bigger plus than we know. Hickson played his best when he wasn't the focus of the offense. While Lebron was there he had a plus 50% FGA. Without Lebron there, his percentage dropped quite a bit. In other words he scored more, but was less efficent while doing it. On the Kings he once again wouldn't be the focus of the offense. So coming off the bench, he might be able to be the high energy guy that comes in and impacts a game.

What I don't see is having both Dalembert and Hayes on the same team. Unless as Bricky suggested, were trading either Thompson or Hickson. And frankly, I'd rather have either one of them over Hayes, especially if Dalembert is on the team. I just can't see us carrying more than 4 bigs. So if were really trying to bring Dally back, the Hayes thing confuses me.

Straight across in the talent department I'd take Thompson or Hickson over Hayes but if I'm looking for a rock solid guy that understands the game and can impact an opposing PF or switch off onto whoever at times I'd go Hayes. Of course, I'd want to be a good team first but there are definite reasons to be interested in a player like Hayes. He understands the game and is the true definition of a defensive role player and odds are he'll be paid like one.

This team had something going but IMO Dalembert was not the key factor in all of that nor will he be the difference between this team becoming a contender or not. Now, if after 3-4 years of development he may be exactly what this team needs, but I think there will be other options available, including one on this team already to make up for the loss.

Oh, and I do actually kind of like the idea of Hayes and Dalembert. Defensively you have the exact two types of players you'd want to support Cousins with. Hayes can check the other teams best scoring bigs and play the pick and rolls. Daly can play the longer taller C's and help Cousins on the boards. Both of their offensive games are iffy though so the right kind of system would have to be in place but with all the scoring guards this team may have, it could possible work.

 

[SacTownKid]

You saved me the need to comment.

Happy also to see a similar rant re: Thornton by Brick.

My goodness folks, when a team has found what they need why do we start looking elsewhere? What was wrong with both Dally and Thronton to suggest we should be looking for a replacement? Tell me, please! The team that already has players that fit has an advantage in a year with a shortened pre-season and a shortend season. Roles are defined and the feeing out period is down to close to nil.

We have the makings of a very good team. Why rip it up by swapping in players that at this point only theoretically will fit with this team?

Thornton needs to come back for sure. Daly? Would love to have him back but I don't think he's a foundational piece for any team especially this one.

Funny Pau Gasol was mentioned because I remember times where he ate Daly's lunch. I thought Cousins' post defense was better at times than Dalembert because Cousins was harder to move. Against the Kings Gasol put up 16 and 10 on 50% shooting. Against Houston he put up 21 and 12 but he also only shot 45% and took 5 more shots to get those 5 points, that's the lowest percentage against any team where he played them more than twice.

 

[Bricklayer]

Funny Pau Gasol was mentioned because I remember times where he ate Daly's lunch.

You must have been watching different games. Gasol had a heck of a time against Dalembert. As did Aldridge. Perfect Daly victims -- long but not strong, and all of a sudden they are faced with somebody just as long and atheltic as they are.

 

[SacTownKid]

You must have been watching different games. Gasol had a heck of a time against Dalembert. As did Aldridge. Perfect Daly victims -- long but not strong, and all of a sudden they are faced with somebody just as long and atheltic as they are.

I agree on the Aldridge part for sure, but Gasol did his fair share of post scoring on Dalembert. Also, at times his lack of foot speed hurt the Kings, he wasn't that intimidating weak side shotblocker I think the Kings need more. I was impressed with the one on one post defense of Cousins, Daly did good on some but the crafty inside and more mobile scorers seemed to do alright on him.

 

[rainmaker]

I agree on the Aldridge part for sure, but Gasol did his fair share of post scoring on Dalembert. Also, at times his lack of foot speed hurt the Kings, he wasn't that intimidating weak side shotblocker I think the Kings need more. I was impressed with the one on one post defense of Cousins, Daly did good on some but the crafty inside and more mobile scorers seemed to do alright on him.

One reason Daly wasn't as effective as a weakside blocker, which nobody else appears to recognize, and it is a huge reason for it, is that our young wing and backcourt players aren't good enough/experienced enough defensively to understand how to send players towards Daly, or where Daly will be waiting, while cutting out other options.

The other four guys need to learn how funnel players towards a shotblocker effectively, while cutting down kickout/dumpy off options. Our help defense and rotations were terrible last year. A large part was youth. With experience that should help. But players need to know HOW to play with a shotblocker effectively. Ours don't. It's not a simple as Daly should just clean up everyone elses mistakes.

 

[Bricklayer]

One reason Daly wasn't as effective as a weakside blocker, which nobody else appears to recognize, and it is a huge reason for it, is that our young wing and backcourt players aren't good enough/experienced enough defensively to understand how to send players towards Daly, or where Daly will be waiting, while cutting out other options.

The other four guys need to learn how funnel players towards a shotblocker effectively, while cutting down kickout/dumpy off options. Our help defense and rotations were terrible last year. A large part was youth. With experience that should help. But players need to know HOW to play with a shotblocker effectively. Ours don't.

Also should be noted that because he was effectively playing PF next to us defensively and guarding the quicker frontcourt matchups away form the hoop, he wasn't just back in the paint lurking the latter half of the year.

 

[sidney]

Here's a fun box score showing how Cousins/Dalembert destroyed the Houston front line shrimps last time they met

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=310405010

We could be seeing games like this for the next several years. All due respect to Chuck Hayes, but we gotta get Dalembert back.