Section 101
All-Star
Yes. Trade Pierce and/or Rondo for trade exemptions. Then use the exemption to sign and trade for Smith.
Iggy and Reke?
- Thread starter Rain man
- Start date
Yes. Trade Pierce and/or Rondo for trade exemptions. Then use the exemption to sign and trade for Smith.
sidney
Starter
Nobody has more than about 5M under the cap to create a big exception before July 1.
Hadlowe
Starter
No, Iguodala is more than a role player. He is good to very good on the corner three and is a top 5 defensive wing player. He can also create for himself off the dribble and is only slightly less adept at getting to the rim than Tyreke with above-average court vision for his position. He is not an all-star or future Hall of Fame guy, but he is not a Thabo Sefalosha type defensive role-player who can only shoot threes. He will get you 10-15 points a night but create another 15-20 through turnovers, assists, and offensive rebounds. I would jump at him for the right price. If Tyreke is gone, then Iguodala is the obvious replacement.
Mass
Starter
Spot on! Great post, I really don't understand how people can complain about Iggy. It's like we could sign Lebron or Durant instead. And I really like your lineup, a lot. That's a playoff starting 5.
Don't forget the #7 pick. NBAdraft.net's latest mock has Oladipo slipping to the Kings. Would be rough in terms of shooting (though I think VO will develop into a serviceable to good 3 point shooter eventually) but absolutely dominate defensively. Or what about trading up for Noel (who may slip if Cleveland really likes Len #1 overall) or Porter who would move Iguodala to SG? Again, either guy would rachet up the defensive potential of the team. So would Dieng who will probably go in the 18-25 range. Would a team consider trading their pick for Jimmer or IT?
Or a shooter like McCollum, McLemore or Kentavious Caldwell-Pope to pair with Tyreke in the backcourt. Great size and defensive potential too.
The Kings could even draft Steven Adams at #7 and give him time to develop. Lots of possibilities would exist IF the Kings could somehow get in a position to nab Iguodala. Of course, that's a huge if.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
It doesn't make much of a difference. And his shooting last year was pretty bad. Is he a guy the opposing coach is going to to be concerned with because of his outside shooting? Heck no. Is he a guy that the opposing coach is going to cheat off of in the paint? Yes. Does the same dynamic apply to Tyreke? Yes. Put two wings on your team that can't shoot from outside and good luck to you.
I think the Iggy and Tyreke combo is a very low probability event for next year. This team has had terrible chemistry over the past few years and now we're supposed to jump up and down about having two mediocre outside shooting wings on this team? And you want to build around the inside of game of Cousins? That doesn't seem like good chemistry to me. That seems like terrible chemistry to me. More of a bubble, bubble, toil and trouble broth than a synergy to die for.
I'd be more excited if the Kings got Porter at the three (who can shoot outside) and then got a legit outside shooting 2 than having Tyreke and Iggy on the same team. Then you'd have a situation in which guys would make it easier for each other to find space to operate rather than just the opposite. Or, at the most I'd want one of either Tyreke or Iggy. Not both. They are redundant pieces, like Thornton and Jimmer.
Section 101
All-Star
Who says it has to be done by July 1?
Gary
All-Star
It's not really a tired argument when The Kings haven't been any good at all when every coach we have had in the past 5 years has tried to put "defensive teams" out of the floor.
Just by adding Iggy we won't be a good "team defense" kind of team. But it most certainly will turn us into an inside team, and opposing teams that are balanced and that are good at adjusting will tear us apart. Now on the other hand a good balanced offense like the Spurs is something that would be difficult to adjust to because they can do everything.
Hadlowe
Starter
Lebron and Wade say hi. Also, Iggy did alright from 3 point range in the Olympics and in the postseason last year. Coach Karl's system tended to not hoist many three pointers relative to how many shots the team took (2nd overall in shots attempted vs 18th overall in 3 pointers attempted and 26th in 3pt percentage). Karl has always emphasized scoring in the paint, so most of the threes his teams take are either late shot-clock threes or ridiculously wide-open threes. With Iggy splitting late shot clock duty with Lawson, it doesn't surprise me that his three point percentage dropped off from his Philly days where he had a green light on open corner threes.
That's exactly the wrong way to think about Cousins' game. Cousins is not merely a dominant inside presence. He is good in the post against smaller or slower defenders, but gets in trouble against guys of equal or greater size and speed. However, he has a very good midrange and faceup game for this stage in his career and will likely only get better there. That versatility allows him to draw rim protectors out of the paint to hit backdoor cutters or just go to work against smaller and weaker defenders. Cousins doesn't need floor spacing. He is floor spacing, which is why a Cousins/Tyreke tandem with appropriate supporting personnel is such a tantalizing prospect in the right offensive system. In my mind, Iguodala is an excellent fit next to those two either at the two or three. He has a respectable set three pointer, makes very good decisions with the ball and away from it, and, more importantly, has been part of winning basketball teams almost his entire career.
Lebron and Wade's outside shooting and redundant overall skillsets say hi.
If you want floor spacing, run Jimmer or Thornton/Tyreke/Iggy/Patterson/Cousins with Tyreke and Iggy sharing ball-handling duties and Jimmer or Thornton hitting spot-up threes. IT can fulfill his destiny as the bench sparkplug, and you can swap in JT as the third big.
If you want to just punish the opponents with size, you run Tyreke/Iggy/Patterson/JT/Cousins and just pound the ball into the paint. It works for Indiana. No reason it can't work here.
Padrino
All-Star
it is a tired argument because you can win multiple ways, and there are teams from all ends of the spectrum that made it to the playoffs this season. you can win with a lockdown defense, a strong interior game, and without much outside shooting, as memphis and indiana proved. you can win with a solid defense, very little interior game, and a ton of outside shooting, as golden state proved. and of course, you can win with it all: a stingy defense, a strong interior game, and a ton of outside shooting, as san antonio and miami proved...
but the key is defense. you've gotta play it to get to the playoffs, and to claim for even an instant that any kings coach in the post-adelman era has attempted to put a defensive team on the floor is simply a wild distortion of the truth. not one of the kings' coaches since adelman (who would run ron artest and bonzi wells together as a bruising defense-first, non-shooting pair in his final season as the kings head coach, taking the spurs to six games in a first round series in the process) has truly attempted a defensive lineup. what have you been watching, exactly, as this team consistently bottoms out in every single defensive category?
keith smart tried for less than an eighth of the regular season to coach a defensive lineup, and then proceeded to abandon all hope for development on that side of the court because the team shot the ball poorly. you can correct offensive struggle. you cannot correct a defensively deficient lineup, except to alter the lineup. and every time keith smart did so, it was to bring more offense to the equation...
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Kingster
Hall of Famer
You really lost me with the first sentence. Comparing LBJ and Wade's outside shooting to Tyreke and Iggy. Come on.
Padrino
All-Star
do ya even bother looking at the stats these days?
here are the '12-'13 numbers of each player from 3, with career stats in parentheses:
lebron james - .401 (and this is the outlier, actually, as he's a career 34% from 3)
dwayne wade - .258 (career 29% from 3)
andre iguadola - .317 (career 33% from 3)
tyreke evans - .338 (career 28% from 3)
it's hardly a stretch to say that all four players are mediocre-to-poor outside shooters, 'bron and wade included. james has benefited this season from a shift primarily to PF, where most 4's are unable to guard him from outside. it's the freak factor. he can play all five positions, and depending where he plays, the defense may not adequately adjust. he's improved his outside shooting the last two seasons, but i still don't think you've got a leg to stand on with your indignant stance towards Hadlowe's point...
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Top Five SG all-time? Maybe if you don't count Jerry West as a shooting guard... maybe. He's certainly not better than Jordan or Bryant. Is he better than Sam Jones? I wouldn't say so. Is he better than Havlicek? Again, I wouldn't say so. Personally, I'm not a hundred percent sold that he's better than Ray Allen; he's had better supporting casts for most of his career, and doesn't have much more to show for it.
I'd say he's comfortably in the Top Ten but, Top Five? Maybe with another ring.
Padrino
All-Star
this is why i'm so grateful that you're not a talent scout for the kings or anyone else. you don't have to look at any stats? fine, but who really cares what kingster's eyes tell him? nobody. you say that you've never seen tyreke obliterate teams from the outside or be the force of a wade? well, i'm hardly surprised, considering how predisposed you are to disparage tyreke at every opportunity...
you still haven't returned to the "Tyreke Jumpshot" thread to contend with my argument regarding tyreke's ability to effectively run a fast break (in which i used a game from march of this year as an example, a game in which, by the way, tyreke absolutely obliterated the bulls with "the force of a wade"). so why should i trust kingster's obviously-biased judgment regarding 'reke's outside shot when i can just seek out the evidence?
this last season, in his fourth year, tyreke evans' most potent game from three was a march matchup against phoenix, where he hit 4-6 from downtown (overall, he scored 25 pts on 9-12 shooting, with 5 asts and 2 rebs, another wade-like game, you might say). he also had four games in which he shot 2-2 from three, and three games in which he shot 2-3 from three. those were his best performances from three when considering both volume and percentage. that said, 'reke also played in 25 games last season in which he missed every single three-pointer he took...
in his fourth year, dwayne wade's most potent game from three was a january matchup against detroit, where he hit 4-5 from downtown. he also had one game in which he shot 3-4 from three, and one game in which he shot 4-6 from three. those were his best performances from three when considering both volume and percentage. that said, wade also played in 28 games that season in which he missed every single three-pointer he took...
beyond that, neither player shoots a lot of threes. they both average roughly 1.5 attempts per game for their respective careers, so how about you stop pretending like there's some enormous gap between tyreke evans' and dwyane wade's outside shooting? or do you really want to be disingenuous and compare tyreke's early career under terrible franchise conditions to wade's prime under considerably more ideal franchise conditions? is that your game? seriously?
i get it. you don't like tyreke. i don't know if you're one of those sad sacks who's still depressed that the kings drafted 'reke over rubio, but you're terrible at attempting to twist the facts to bolster your patchwork arguments, and when presented with tangible figures to counter your flimsy assertions, you disappear altogether...
here's the deal: if we were comparing each player at corresponding stages of their careers, i would take dwayne wade, the player, over tyreke evans, the player, 100% of the time. but that's not what we're comparing. we're also not stacking up a fourth year guard against a potential hall of fame candidate, as if that's a fair argument to begin with...
wade has never been anything but awful from three. he is a grotesque outside shooter. absolutely dreadful. after game 6, lebron james himself excluded dwayne wade from the lineup he considered to be the most offensively potent for the heat, the one that creates the most space. and i'm sure lebron james doesn't think to himself, "i don't have to look at any stats."
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Dime Dropper
All-Star
Dime Dropper
All-Star
Glenn
Hall of Famer
sidney
Starter
You could not be more wrong
Lets try this again:
LeBron:
3-10 feet--- 49%
10-16 feet---41.5%
16-<3pt line---44%
3pt line---40%
Jump shot total (including 3s)--42.9%
Spot-up shooting-50%, (44% from 3)
Wade:
3-10 feet--- 43.1%
10-16 feet--- 37%
16-<3pt line--- 42%
3pt line--- 25.8%
Jump shot total (including 3s)-- 39.5%
Spot-up shooting--- 46.8% (40% from 3)
Tyreke:
3-10 feet--- 33.1%
10-16 feet--- 31.1%
16-<3pt line--- 33.9%
3pt line--- 33.8%
Jump shot total (including 3s)-- 31.1%
Spot-up shooting--- 37.7% (36.7 from 3)
Andre Iggy:
3-10 feet--- 32.9%
10-16 feet--- 27.8%
16-<3pt line---33.3%
3pt line--- 31.7%
Jump shot total (including 3s)-- 31.1%
Spot-up shooting--- 33.3% (35% from 3)
So yea, it's a huge stretch to say Iggy+Reke are anywhere close to the shooters of Wade+LeBron. Using just 3pt% to determine if someone is a good outside shooter makes zero sense and is even worse considering your trying to make an "argument" with it. I didn't include it here, but LeBron and Wade are also operating on a much higher sample size of ****s, which= more accurate data. Do YOU even bother looking at stats these days?
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Padrino
All-Star
You could not be more wrong
Lets try this again:
LeBron:
3-10 feet--- 49%
10-16 feet---41.5%
16-<3pt line---44%
3pt line---40%
Jump shot total (including 3s)--42.9%
Spot-up shooting-50%, (44% from 3)
Wade:
3-10 feet--- 43.1%
10-16 feet--- 37%
16-<3pt line--- 42%
3pt line--- 25.8%
Jump shot total (including 3s)-- 39.5%
Spot-up shooting--- 46.8% (40% from 3)
Tyreke:
3-10 feet--- 33.1%
10-16 feet--- 31.1%
16-<3pt line--- 33.9%
3pt line--- 33.8%
Jump shot total (including 3s)-- 31.1%
Spot-up shooting--- 37.7% (36.7 from 3)
Andre Iggy:
3-10 feet--- 32.9%
10-16 feet--- 27.8%
16-<3pt line---33.3%
3pt line--- 31.7%
Jump shot total (including 3s)-- 31.1%
Spot-up shooting--- 33.3% (35% from 3)
So yea, it's a huge stretch to say Iggy+Reke are anywhere close to the shooters of Wade+LeBron. Using just 3pt% to determine if someone is a good outside shooter makes zero sense and is even worse considering your trying to make an "argument" with it. I didn't include it here, but LeBron and Wade are also operating on a much higher sample size of ****s, which= more accurate data. Do YOU even bother looking at stats these days?
depends on how you define "outside shot." you will find that the common usage of that term is not synonymous with "jump shot." yes, even a casual observer could tell you that 'bron and wade are superior jump shooters in general to tyreke and iggy, but as far as their ability to hit an "outside shot," as in, a shot outside the 3-pt line, it's hardly no-contest...
You could not be more wrong
Lets try this again:
LeBron:
YOu
3-10 feet--- 49%
10-16 feet---41.5%
16-<3pt line---44%
3pt line---40%
Jump shot total (including 3s)--42.9%
Spot-up shooting-50%, (44% from 3)
Wade:
3-10 feet--- 43.1%
10-16 feet--- 37%
16-<3pt line--- 42%
3pt line--- 25.8%
Jump shot total (including 3s)-- 39.5%
Spot-up shooting--- 46.8% (40% from 3)
Tyreke:
3-10 feet--- 33.1%
10-16 feet--- 31.1%
16-<3pt line--- 33.9%
3pt line--- 33.8%
Jump shot total (including 3s)-- 31.1%
Spot-up shooting--- 37.7% (36.7 from 3)
Andre Iggy:
3-10 feet--- 32.9%
10-16 feet--- 27.8%
16-<3pt line---33.3%
3pt line--- 31.7%
Jump shot total (including 3s)-- 31.1%
Spot-up shooting--- 33.3% (35% from 3)
So yea, it's a huge stretch to say Iggy+Reke are anywhere close to the shooters of Wade+LeBron. Using just 3pt% to determine if someone is a good outside shooter makes zero sense and is even worse considering your trying to make an "argument" with it. I didn't include it here, but LeBron and Wade are also operating on a much higher sample size of ****s, which= more accurate data. Do YOU even bother looking at stats these days?
The average for Evans seems low, given the data...
Nope, it's correct. It's the total sample size of jumpers a player took (3s included). You''ll notice everyone else's Jump shot total (including 3s) is lower as well.
Point is, Reke has a long way to go. Other than spot-up 3, his shooting is still horrible. Wade shooting comparisons are not even close to being valid yet
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Of course the point not mentioned is that 10-16 foot jumpers are completely worthless at creating spacing for a big man. Also largely worthless are guys who shoot off their own dribble. There is some minor utility there, but its as much a hindrance as a help to the big guy who never even gets to touch the ball while you are chucking it up.
All that is needed to create spacing, in fact the classic space creaters, are spot up 3pt shooters, or maybe maybe long jumpershooters in the 20+ foot sort of range. Big guy gets ball, 3pt shooters spot up, there is your spacing. The defense is given a choice to either single cover the big, or to cheat/double down on him and leave those shooters spotted up out there. Being a 10-16ft jumpshooter doesn't help the big at all. A player guarding against that shot can easily both guard it and help on the big. In fact a 10-16foot jumpshot is really just a scorers shot. Doesn't clear space for your inside guys, nor particularly leave your spot up guys wide open. Doesn't collapse the defense and open up passing lanes. Only value is for a guy to score himself.
What does any of this have to do with Reke's shooting still being horrible? Find it amusing how quickly you rush his defense when your argument has absolutely nothing to do with Reke's shooting.
Reke is still a long way from being even called an average shooter. His average set 3 is the only shot outside of his shots at the rim where his %'s are not embarrassingly low.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
He shot 47.8% from the field last year. Maybe he hit 100% of 0-3 feet to boost his stats to 47.8% Maybe these new analytics use a different way of calculating percentage. I honestly don't understand how you get from here:
Tyreke:
3-10 feet--- 33.1%
10-16 feet--- 31.1%
16-<3pt line--- 33.9%
3pt line--- 33.8%
to 47.8%
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Actually not very difficult at all.
Reke took a total of 765 FGA's last season. Here are the follow breakdowns for his FGA per bracket.
3-10 feet--- 33.1% --- 145 FGA
10-16 feet--- 31.1%--- 16 FGA
16-<3pt line--- 33.9%--- 112 FGA
3pt line--- 33.8%--- 133 FGA
add those up and we got 406 FGA or 53% of his shots
Reke's line at the rim:
At Rim--- 64%--- 359 FGA or 47% of his shots at the rim.
Do some simple math and you have your answer. There's nothing "advanced" about this. Just a record of where Reke took his shots and at what % he made them at. People get scared way too easily by the word "advanced" metrics. When in reality, it's just manipulating basic data in easy ways to give a better understanding of what you're trying to find out (efficiency, rebounding, scoring ability etc)
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Bosnian Diehard
Starter
So he goes from a 64% shooter at the rim to a 33.1% shooter one foot behind that? Seems questionable to me.
3-10 feet. Convenient how you left that out eh?
He obviously did not take 143 shots at exactly 3 feet
Bosnian Diehard
Starter
Nonetheless, a 30% decrease from a 1-7 foot difference is very strange.
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