What's this "they" business? Webber was brought up by one person; one. Why don't you ask him, and stop blaming others for "not being able to let it go?"mikebibby1034 said:
Hope come playoffs.
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
GoGoGadget
All-Star
I like when people ask a question and then try to talk everyone out of their answers.
Good times.
Good times.
GoGoGadget said:
You know what my favorite is?
Somebody will start to tell you a joke and say, "Stop me if you've heard this." Inevitably it turns out to be a joke they've told you at least a dozen times. You say, "Oh, yeah. You told me that one. It was pretty good (or whatever you can think of to describe arguably the lamest "joke" you've ever heard)." Do they stop? Nope. They continue on ... and even make it longer.
I don't know what's more suprising, the obliviousness of webber haters or the number of responses these threads get.
I think one person had the balls to actually come out and post it as a topic. They made a thread to the effect of "We're a better team without Webber" sometime back. Now we get this kind of crap where basically the same message is stated under the guise of earnest team assessment (hahah, yea right). Then the bandwagoners pile on and say they don't have this painfully obvious agenda. Who you trying to fool here?
This is an obviously contrived thread of discussion for boosting a certain viewpoint about the before/after effect of a certain trade.
The only way I can begin to make sense of the ridiculousness is if I allow for a certain premise: anything involving the removal of Webber from the team must be good. As long as those players who get Webber's minutes aren't completely incompetent, we've come out ahead. This is because all the problems we've had with rebounding, defense, stagnating offense, and old ladies getting hit by buses were caused by one person: Chris Webber. He was such a detriment to the team that we've become immediate championship contenders. We don't even have to wait for Petrie to make moves in the offseason, we're good enough now. No need to talk about contract flexibility, Geoff... the real problem's solved.
I also find it funny that Brad Miller (sub-par rebounding center) is supposed to come back and save us from our rebounding woes, like he's done all year (yes, that was sarcasm)? The strongest supporting argument in the thread of this is corliss williamson being played far out of position for a few minutes cause RA chose to go small. Yes, because in those few minutes, if Brad Miller had played, he'd obviously grab 20+ boards and jack up the rebounding average by 2 for games played after the trade. This would make sense if we accept the premise that Webber is holding everyone back and Brad is a much better boarder than he has shown (god-like, in fact).
You see, it becomes much easier to understand the arguments if you accept the initial claim. Everything follows given that.
I think one person had the balls to actually come out and post it as a topic. They made a thread to the effect of "We're a better team without Webber" sometime back. Now we get this kind of crap where basically the same message is stated under the guise of earnest team assessment (hahah, yea right). Then the bandwagoners pile on and say they don't have this painfully obvious agenda. Who you trying to fool here?
This is an obviously contrived thread of discussion for boosting a certain viewpoint about the before/after effect of a certain trade.
The only way I can begin to make sense of the ridiculousness is if I allow for a certain premise: anything involving the removal of Webber from the team must be good. As long as those players who get Webber's minutes aren't completely incompetent, we've come out ahead. This is because all the problems we've had with rebounding, defense, stagnating offense, and old ladies getting hit by buses were caused by one person: Chris Webber. He was such a detriment to the team that we've become immediate championship contenders. We don't even have to wait for Petrie to make moves in the offseason, we're good enough now. No need to talk about contract flexibility, Geoff... the real problem's solved.
I also find it funny that Brad Miller (sub-par rebounding center) is supposed to come back and save us from our rebounding woes, like he's done all year (yes, that was sarcasm)? The strongest supporting argument in the thread of this is corliss williamson being played far out of position for a few minutes cause RA chose to go small. Yes, because in those few minutes, if Brad Miller had played, he'd obviously grab 20+ boards and jack up the rebounding average by 2 for games played after the trade. This would make sense if we accept the premise that Webber is holding everyone back and Brad is a much better boarder than he has shown (god-like, in fact).
You see, it becomes much easier to understand the arguments if you accept the initial claim. Everything follows given that.
OptimusRhyme
Jive Turkey
Zyphen said:
Brad Miller is a much better rebounder then your making him out to be, 10 rebounds a game is not "sub-par". And yes we will be a much better rebounding team when he returns, hes our best rebounder, now when Miller leaves the game we will have fresh legs in Skinner to come in and pick up right where Miller left off, opposed to Darius or Corliss playing centre/forward. Were now going to have fresh legs with better rebounding everytime one of the centers and power forwards needs a rest and yes fatigue is a big factor for them, as you have seen Skinner gets tired after the first quarter. No one said we have become a championship team either, you don't think I relize thats its very likely that some of these players will be traded. I have an opinion on the trade & the team and you have one, you don't have to come down on my opinion because you think its "Ridiculous", if its so ridiculous why did you even reply to it?
OptimusRhyme said:
Could we PLEASE stop the personal sniping?
You are assuming Brad will be able to come back from a broken leg in the minimum amount of time AND perform at something close to 100%. I don't think you can make that assumption with any degree of confidence.
loopymitch
All-Star
OMG the Easter bunny killed VF's elephant lol
Kingsgurl
Starter
OptimusRhyme said:
He doesn't average 10 boards a game, although he is close. (when you are the second leading rebounder on a team for much of the year, being out rebounded by the one legged man, you probably aren't a rebounding 'powerhouse')
Actually, somebody DID say this team was a Championship team, several times, in fact. Wasn't that the premise for the whole thread?
This isn't about Chris, this is about the chances THIS team has. This team has to deal with the injury to Brad, this team has to jell, has to figure out how to win on the road. This team still has many questions and is searching for consistent answers.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
OptimusRhyme said:
Okay, twice this season I started rebounding threads to take a look at things statistically. The last one was started on 2/15, and this is what the numbers looked like per/48:
Tag -- 13.2
Webb -- 13.0
Brad -- 12.0
Darius -- 9.6
Barnes -- 8.8
Here is the new personnel:
Skinner -- 14.2
Thomas -- 12.4
Williamson -- 7.8
(with Darius still at 9.6 but Tag having improved slightly to 13.7)
Our current starting center is a conisderably better rebounder than the guy who we are trying to get back. Skinner is the real key to any rebounding improvement (since we actually lost ground in the Webb/Thomas and Barnes/Corliss swaps), and there's a certain irony to getting Brad back to take Brian's minutes as a rouote to improved rebounding.
Now after everybody is back, whenever that might be, our starting C/PF combo is likely to be Miller/Thomas, which is about 12.0/12.4 in rebs/48, compared to Miller/Webber which was 12.0/13.0. We get marginally worse. So the entire hope for improving our frontcourt rebounding comes in the 20-25 or so minutes of backup work that was formerly distributed at about 75% Darius (9.6) 25% Tag (13.2). I will absolutely guarantee you Darius is not going to be entirely benched, so Skinner will get Tag's minutes (minor improvement in rebounding for limited min) and some, but not all, of Darius's. The situation isn't much different than it has been all year with the determinant of our frontcourt rebounding depending on whether we go with the bigger shotblocker (Tag + now Skinner) or the finesse PF (Darius). If we go with Skinner more of the time than Darius, we can be somewhat better than we were -- slightly weaker in the starters, slightly stronger in the backups (Skinner is a much better rebounder than Darius, but if he only steals 10min from Darius in that amount of time he is less than 1 reb better than Darius).
And in the end, that's not enough to make us a good rebounding team. If we benched Darius entirely for Skinner it would be a start (we would obviously lose skill in such a move). But even that would not be enough without improvements from our other positions.
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The thing that would help our rebounding the most would be if our perimeter players would move toward the paint after someone jacks up an outside shot instead of running down court. Rebounding is not just about height and athleticism(though these help) but also about positioning and a mentality to go after the ball. Example: Last night Bibby shoots 3 pointer, bounces off rim to around foul line, which is filled with Denver players, while Peja, Bibby etc are backpeddling down the court.
OptimusRhyme
Jive Turkey
Bricklayer said:
Stats per 48 minutes are stupid, your looking at stats way too much, the bottom line about all of this is our team right now is missing its best rebounder , now when our best rebounder comes comes back,our team will be better at rebounding, its not that hard. Stats don't meen everything especially per 48 minutes, because players get tired and players fill in for each other, now that we have just as good of a rebounder in Skinner to back up Miller, fatigue will be solved a bit on the rebounding issues.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
OptimusRhyme said:
Yes, I prefer blind hope and tea leaves myself. Why worry about what is actually going on?
OptimusRhyme
Jive Turkey
^ no because they are not correct, say Miller goes in for 15 minutes hes not going to get tired in 15 minutes so he will be rebounding his best -> and the per 48 will say hes rebounding at his best all the time, but say he went in for 25 minutes he will start to get tired and the Per 48 will be him not rebounding that good. Now if we have a backup centre that rebounds just as good too come in and give him a break those numbers are going to get higher. Stats don't meen everything theres stuff that dosen't show up on the stats, hustle play rebounds, tips to other players, team rebounds, and so on,so you can't compare things with just there stat per 48 thats just stupid.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
OptimusRhyme said:
that sounds good as an academic theory -- it is however impossible to verify in a game setting. In fact, I think the counter theory that players start to play better the longer they are left on the floor to get into rhythm, learn their opponents etc. is at LEAST as strong. Skinner is a BETTER rebounder in 30 min a night for us than he was in 10 a night in Philly. Brad is a the same rebounder now that he was in fewer minutes earlier in his career. Darius is exactly the same as a starter (6.1 in 30min) as he is as a backup (3.3 in 17min). Maybe slightly better even. Thomas has upped his rebounding with more minutes for us over what he was geting in Philly, and averaged still MORE rebounds when he was given a full 36 min a night last year. You're working off a hope and a guess, and a dubious one at that.
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Webber4tHREE
Bench
well we have the 5th seed back again lol
KP
Starter
What are you watching???
OK I thought... Maybe I'm wrong... have I been watching different games than everyone else?? Maybe I am a Webber Homer... Maybe they've been doing better on D and Rebounding and I'm allowing my feelings to affect what I see during the games. So I went and looked up our Defensive and rebounding numbers for the last 10 games. I thought would be bad but they weren't... They were awful! In the last 10 games the Kings rank 29th in Reb differential(-5.7), we rank 27th in Bpg differential and 22nd overall in blocks per game. We rank 22nd in Oppg(101.7), and 25th in Opp fg% (47.4%). How you guys can watch these games, and then look at these numbers, and can say with a straight face that you believe the Kings are a much improved rebounding and Defensive team is beyond me.
OK I thought... Maybe I'm wrong... have I been watching different games than everyone else?? Maybe I am a Webber Homer... Maybe they've been doing better on D and Rebounding and I'm allowing my feelings to affect what I see during the games. So I went and looked up our Defensive and rebounding numbers for the last 10 games. I thought would be bad but they weren't... They were awful! In the last 10 games the Kings rank 29th in Reb differential(-5.7), we rank 27th in Bpg differential and 22nd overall in blocks per game. We rank 22nd in Oppg(101.7), and 25th in Opp fg% (47.4%). How you guys can watch these games, and then look at these numbers, and can say with a straight face that you believe the Kings are a much improved rebounding and Defensive team is beyond me.
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