Grizzlies looking to move #4?

[nbrans]

I thought this nugget from Andy Katz's Insider blog was interesting:

Memphis president Jerry West said he is entertaining offers for the No. 4 pick in the draft. He said the Grizzlies need to get a starter and he's not sure if they can with the No. 4 selection. But there is also concern whether they can get a starter in a trade for the No. 4 pick. West said the immediate need is for a point guard and a big man. Tony Barone Sr., the team's director of player personnel who was the interim coach after the Grizzlies fired Mike Fratello in December, said the point guard situation is in flux with Kyle Lowry coming off a broken left wrist, the expiration of Chucky Atkins' contract and Damon Stoudamire's aging. The Grizzlies also need a big man, according to Barone, to help Pau Gasol. Barone is high on Alexander Johnson, but the former Florida State forward is still not ready to be a major factor. So can the Grizzlies pick Ohio State freshman Mike Conley Jr., at No. 4 if he's available to be the starting point guard? If not, then is Florida junior Al Horford the help for Gasol (behind Stromile Swift)? But the Grizz still are pondering whether Horford is big enough to be a dominating player in the post. Atlanta may determine what the Grizz do since the Hawks pick at No. 3. But when approached Wednesday, Hawks general manager Billy Knight said he had nothing to say on the Hawks' draft. Atlanta picks Nos. 3 and 11 in the lottery.

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=2887985&name=katz_andy

 

[Vlade4GM]

Reportedly they're getting Iavaroni, I don't think he'll want Bibby running the point for him.

 

[nbrans]

Reportedly they're getting Iavaroni, I don't think he'll want Bibby running the point for him.

I've also read though that Iavaroni might not mimic D'Antoni's style -- he was more of a defensive/big guy in Phoenix and while he might take some things from Phoenix he's his own guy when it comes to offense.

Here's a great breakdown: http://cmimemphis.com/grizblog/node/157

Of course "defensive" doesn't bode well either...

 

[Bricklayer]

Reportedly they're getting Iavaroni, I don't think he'll want Bibby running the point for him.

Why not? If they are actually looking at quick fix, he's about the best that's likely to be on the market. Can also run an uptempo offense if that's the way they want to go.

In any case, I don't think there's any real way to tell how Iavaroni is going to coach yet. He's had some great mentors, but they've been guys with wildly disparate styles. Is he going to run? Grind? Defense first? Three point bomb? Who knows.

Encouraging though. Was also a report a few days ago that Ainge was dangling that #5, albeit probably for better guys than we have to offer (forgot if it was Randolph or O'Neal attached to that report).

 

[BMiller52]

Bibby for Cardinal, #4, Stro, and Damon Stoudamire works. We take some bad contracts off their hand and give them their PG. We get #4!!!!!!!!

edit: Then they can sign Vince Carter also. Bibby/Carter/Miller/Gasol would put up a million points per game

 

[Bricklayer]

Just soemthing that occurred to me, but as an aside, the indication that the Grizz are still looking to move Pau back to his natural PF position might say something about how Iavaroni is goingto coach, if he is even in the decision making loop at this point. If he was really just going to come in and run the Phoenix system, then I strongly suspect Pau becomes the smallballing center ala Amare, and then they draft a PF here who can run (maybe Jianlian). But their difficulty appears to be because they want to shift Pau back ot his natural 4 spot, and their are no centers or PGs worth the #4 pick. That perhapos says they are looking at running a more traditional system -- or at least that that was the plan when they were still hoping to get Oden.

 

[VF21]

edit: Then they can sign Vince Carter also. Bibby/Carter/Miller/Gasol would put up a million points per game

And still manage to lose a majority of games.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I still don't think it's realistic.

 

[nbrans]

Looks like Suns executive David Griffin is following Iavaroni to Memphis. They're also supposedly hiring BJ Armstrong

Phoenix east?

From the Memphis Flyer Grizzlies blog:

Another question is how this impacts the Grizzlies draft strategy. It’s been reported for months now that the Suns, were they to receive Atlanta’s draft pick, would strongly consider Florida's Joakim Noah. Does Noah now re-emerge as a possibility for the Grizzlies at #4? There are already people in the Grizzlies organization high on Noah — who think he can be an athletic, rebounding center in the mode of Marcus Camby.

One important thing to watch from the Orlando pre-draft camp is how Florida forward Al Horford measures out. If Horford is closer to 6’10” than 6’8”, and with a sizable wingspan, then that will suggest that Horford’s power game is more likely to translate to the NBA. If that’s the case, then Horford could emerge as a clear favorite for the Grizzlies pick at #4.

Of course, if Horford measures out particularly well, then the danger is that he may not be there at #4. There is a school of thought that Atlanta may not take Ohio State point guard Mike Conley Jr. at #3, preferring to wait until their pick at #11 to fill their need at point guard with either Acie Law or high-rising Georgia Tech product Javaris Crittenton.

If that’s the case, then Atlanta would go big at #3, targeting Horford, Brandon Wright, or even Noah.

http://cmimemphis.com/grizblog/

(That is a really good blog, btw -- Sam Amick, if you're reading, take notes.)

 

[ParniValjak]

So now thats Memphis and Boston that are open to trading their picks.

I think Bibby would be a great fit in Memphis with Gasol BUT he has that ETO and its really crippling us in what we might be able to pull off.

Would we be able to trade Bibby on draft day if he waived his ETO and practically agreed to trade or is there a rule stopping that sort of scenario?

 

[Vlade4GM]

No, I don't think he'll voluntarily go to Memphis. It's not likely we get a pick in any Bibby trade.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

No, I don't think he'll voluntarily go to Memphis. It's not likely we get a pick in any Bibby trade.

Unless we trade up, of course.

Noah might still be available at #9. So two trades that might have to happen for us to get the #4:

SAR + #10 for Duhon, Khrypa, #9

And then

Bibby + #9 for Cardinal + Filler + #4

Pick Horford with the #4 (Or Wright, Jianlian, whichever of the three is available)

Assuming we do a Artest and Kenny Thomas for Frye, Rose, #23 swap, So we're left with:

????/Price
Martin/Douby
Garcia/Salmons
Horford/Justin Williams
Miller/Frye

+BPA with the 23rd pick.


It's a long shot to happen, of course. We can always dream

 

[Entity]

In the depth chart what happend to Duhon, Krhypa, Cardinal, Rose???, +Filler.

 

[Smills91]

Did you all know that the Grizzlies are about 13.6 million under the salary cap on July 1st? Maybe we could work out some pre-arranged deal where the Kings deal: Brad Miller/Mike Bibby to fill the 1/5 holes that the Grizz have and take back just Stromile and Cardinal along with the Rights to Horford/Wright at #4.

The Stro/Cardinal would replace Miller's salary and Mike Bibby would be traded for a 13.5 million TPE.

This deal would give us TONS of flexibility despite taking back MORE bad contract in Stro/Cardinal.

That 13.5 million TPE could possibly land us a superstar level player...and having Ron Artest as bait could help sweeten the deal.

The Grizz land two all-star level players at the positions they need most while dumping two of their worst contracts in the process. I don't think the Grizz could land a better PG or C via free agency and Brad and Mike both have 3 or less years on their deals which makes them less "risky" than signing a Mo Williams to a 6 year deal.

Grizzlies roster:

C: Brad Miller
PF: Pau Gasol, Alexander Johnson
SF: Rudy Gay, Hakim Warrick
SG: Mike Miller, Tarence Kinsey
PG: Mike Bibby, Nick Lowry, Damon Stoudamire


Then deal Artest/Kenny for Francis/Frye/#23

#4 Al Horford, #10 Julian Wright/Jeff Green, #23 Javaris Crittenton

Kings roster:
C: Channing Frye, Stromile Swift, Justin Williams
PF: Al Horford, ShareefAbdur-Rahim, Brian Cardinal
SF: John Salmons, Julian Wright/Jeff Green,
SG: Kevin Martin, Francisco Garcia, Quincy Douby
PG: Steve Francis, Javaris Crittenton, Ronnie Price

Kings rebuilt.

Deals of Francis/Swift come off the books in 2 years
Rahim/Cardinal come off the books in 3 years

We could then look to deal during the season to move Rahim and/or Cardinal for shorter term contract to get significantly under the cap for the 2009 off-season.

The young core would be:

Horford/Martin/Frye/Wright or Green/Garcia with Douby/Williams/Price still kind of unproven.

 

[Gary]

Salmons starting SF? yikes.. Garcia is 10x better.

 

[nbrans]

Salmons starting SF? yikes.. Garcia is 10x better.

Uh... how you figure?

 

[Gary]

Uh... how you figure?

Because he is? Garcia is better suited for the SF position than Salmons by far.. More athletic, better rebounder, better scorer....

Garcia for some reason still is listed at his draft weight of 195 which was correct two years ago, but he is supposedly 6'7.5-6'8 now and about 210-215. Salmons is 6'5 and 210. He can spot play SF, but he is definitely not a SF full time. Garcia is better fit for that position, but he has about 10x the upside that Salmons has. Defensively I give the edge to Salmons because of experience, but Garcia is about to pass him. Salmons has career backup written all over him. Now tell me why Salmons should start SF?

 

[nbrans]

Because he is? Garcia is better suited for the SF position than Salmons by far.. More athletic, better rebounder, better scorer....

Garcia for some reason still is listed at his draft weight of 195 which was correct two years ago, but he is supposedly 6'7.5-6'8 now and about 210-215. Salmons is 6'5 and 210. He can spot play SF, but he is definitely not a SF full time. Garcia is better fit for that position, but he has about 10x the upside that Salmons has. Defensively I give the edge to Salmons because of experience, but Garcia is about to pass him. Salmons has career backup written all over him. Now tell me why Salmons should start SF?

Salmons is also 6'6"/6'7", and right now he's much better than Garcia. I actually think he's ideally suited for the SF, not so much for PG and SG.

Maybe Garcia will be the better player down the road, but he's not even much younger than Salmons. Salmons is 27, Garcia is 25. Defensively, unless you're talking about shot blocks, Salmons is better. Garcia can be disruptive, but he loses focus all the time whereas Salmons is consistent. Offensively, Salmons is still better. He shoots a higher percentage and has a much higher rate of assists. Garcia has the edge in rebounding.

But until Garcia's late surge in the last month when, incidentally, we lost pretty much every game, Salmons was by far the superior player. Garcia really hasn't shown much on the court excerpt for two stretches in his career -- last season before his ankle injury and when we were tanking. That's not exactly inspiring to me. I like Garcia's potential and hustle, but at some point that potential had better start translating to results during a time when it matters.

I wouldn't say the difference between them is HUGE, but still, to say that Garcia is 10x better is just absurd.

 

[VF21]

Did you all know that the Grizzlies are about 13.6 million under the salary cap on July 1st? Maybe we could work out some pre-arranged deal where the Kings deal: Brad Miller/Mike Bibby to fill the 1/5 holes that the Grizz have and take back just Stromile and Cardinal along with the Rights to Horford/Wright at #4.

The Stro/Cardinal would replace Miller's salary and Mike Bibby would be traded for a 13.5 million TPE.

This deal would give us TONS of flexibility despite taking back MORE bad contract in Stro/Cardinal.

That 13.5 million TPE could possibly land us a superstar level player...and having Ron Artest as bait could help sweeten the deal.

The Grizz land two all-star level players at the positions they need most while dumping two of their worst contracts in the process. I don't think the Grizz could land a better PG or C via free agency and Brad and Mike both have 3 or less years on their deals which makes them less "risky" than signing a Mo Williams to a 6 year deal.

Grizzlies roster:

C: Brad Miller
PF: Pau Gasol, Alexander Johnson
SF: Rudy Gay, Hakim Warrick
SG: Mike Miller, Tarence Kinsey
PG: Mike Bibby, Nick Lowry, Damon Stoudamire


Then deal Artest/Kenny for Francis/Frye/#23

#4 Al Horford, #10 Julian Wright/Jeff Green, #23 Javaris Crittenton

Kings roster:
C: Channing Frye, Stromile Swift, Justin Williams
PF: Al Horford, ShareefAbdur-Rahim, Brian Cardinal
SF: John Salmons, Julian Wright/Jeff Green,
SG: Kevin Martin, Francisco Garcia, Quincy Douby
PG: Steve Francis, Javaris Crittenton, Ronnie Price

Kings rebuilt.

Deals of Francis/Swift come off the books in 2 years
Rahim/Cardinal come off the books in 3 years

We could then look to deal during the season to move Rahim and/or Cardinal for shorter term contract to get significantly under the cap for the 2009 off-season.

The young core would be:

Horford/Martin/Frye/Wright or Green/Garcia with Douby/Williams/Price still kind of unproven.

Interesting but what did you do with Kenny Thomas?

 

[Packt]

Interesting but what did you do with Kenny Thomas?

Kenny went to the Knicks it looks like.

 

[Heuge]

Kings roster:
C: Channing Frye, Stromile Swift, Justin Williams
PF: Al Horford, ShareefAbdur-Rahim, Brian Cardinal
SF: John Salmons, Julian Wright/Jeff Green,
SG: Kevin Martin, Francisco Garcia, Quincy Douby
PG: Steve Francis, Javaris Crittenton, Ronnie Price

Kings rebuilt.

I'd rather have the 1995 expansion Grizzlies.

 

[VF21]

I agree, Heuge.

That doesn't look like a team. It looks like a bunch of mis-matched parts that couldn't possibly gel.

 

[Gary]

Salmons is also 6'6"/6'7", and right now he's much better than Garcia. I actually think he's ideally suited for the SF, not so much for PG and SG.

Maybe Garcia will be the better player down the road, but he's not even much younger than Salmons. Salmons is 27, Garcia is 25. Defensively, unless you're talking about shot blocks, Salmons is better. Garcia can be disruptive, but he loses focus all the time whereas Salmons is consistent. Offensively, Salmons is still better. He shoots a higher percentage and has a much higher rate of assists. Garcia has the edge in rebounding.

But until Garcia's late surge in the last month when, incidentally, we lost pretty much every game, Salmons was by far the superior player. Garcia really hasn't shown much on the court excerpt for two stretches in his career -- last season before his ankle injury and when we were tanking. That's not exactly inspiring to me. I like Garcia's potential and hustle, but at some point that potential had better start translating to results during a time when it matters.

I wouldn't say the difference between them is HUGE, but still, to say that Garcia is 10x better is just absurd.

I was exaggerating about him being 10x better, but Garcia imo is clearly better than Salmons, and is better suited to play SF. Salmons is a nice guy to have off the bench, and I wouldn't mind im spot starting, but he is VERY inconsistant when given the minutes. One night he looks great, and the next he doesnt. The difference between the two is that Garcia puts out the effort nightly even is he has the once a night charging foul.

On offense Garcia gets the advantage.
On defense Salmons is slightly better, but Garcia has a higher ceiling imo
On the potential Garcia gets the advantage. Salmons has spot started for 5 years now and has not shown the potential to put together the string of "effort" required to hold that job. I can't see Salmons starting on a good team, but I could see Garcia in the future.

Plus, have you seen the picure where they are standing side by side? I can't find it for the life of me... But Garcia looks like he has about 3" on Salmons at least.

 

[Bricklayer]

Kings roster:
C: Channing Frye, Stromile Swift, Justin Williams
PF: Al Horford, ShareefAbdur-Rahim, Brian Cardinal
SF: John Salmons, Julian Wright/Jeff Green,
SG: Kevin Martin, Francisco Garcia, Quincy Douby
PG: Steve Francis, Javaris Crittenton, Ronnie Price

Nifty young core -- I'd do it if the chance arose -- but lose old man Reef before he's completely worthless, and the choice between a wuss and an idiot at center is not terribly inspiring.

 

[nbrans]

I was exaggerating about him being 10x better, but Garcia imo is clearly better than Salmons, and is better suited to play SF. Salmons is a nice guy to have off the bench, and I wouldn't mind im spot starting, but he is VERY inconsistant when given the minutes. One night he looks great, and the next he doesnt. The difference between the two is that Garcia puts out the effort nightly even is he has the once a night charging foul.

On offense Garcia gets the advantage.
On defense Salmons is slightly better, but Garcia has a higher ceiling imo
On the potential Garcia gets the advantage. Salmons has spot started for 5 years now and has not shown the potential to put together the string of "effort" required to hold that job. I can't see Salmons starting on a good team, but I could see Garcia in the future.

Plus, have you seen the picure where they are standing side by side? I can't find it for the life of me... But Garcia looks like he has about 3" on Salmons at least.

I mean, if you want to talk about consistency, Garcia was consistently bad last year until the last month. He shot under 40%, he was scattered on defense, and he didn't show any hint of improvement from the previous year. The last month? Pretty good, although the last month of the season was basically early Summer League and the competition was abysmal and disinterested.

I don't discount the possibility that Garcia could have a breakout year next year, but to me he has basically proved nothing. Salmons at least was solid, and while yeah, he would disappear from time to time, he was arguably the second most consistent player behind Martin in terms of performance and effort. He was the second-best defender behind Artest, and he played actual good minutes against actual good teams.

Everything with Garcia is theory -- in theory he's a good defender, except he negates good plays with mental lapses, in theory he's good on offense, except he's never shot consistently from outside and struggles to create his own shot, in theory he's a difference-maker except he can't channel his effort. Maybe he'll pan out, but I'm waiting to see it on the court, and I think it's foolhardy to consider him the small forward of the future.

 

[Gary]

Garcia didn't have the chance to play last year. He was spotty at best. Salmons was out 6th man. Almost 27 minutes a game compared to 17 from Garcia. The numbers are similar to one another and Garcia had 66% of the playing time Salmons did. I just think we need to give Garcia a chance to start. I said the same last year about Martin when we were having ht sign or not sign Bonzi threads. A lot of people said Martin wasn;t ready to start. Turns out he was. I think Garcia is ready now as well

 

[Kingster]

I mean, if you want to talk about consistency, Garcia was consistently bad last year until the last month. He shot under 40%, he was scattered on defense, and he didn't show any hint of improvement from the previous year. The last month? Pretty good, although the last month of the season was basically early Summer League and the competition was abysmal and disinterested.

I don't discount the possibility that Garcia could have a breakout year next year, but to me he has basically proved nothing. Salmons at least was solid, and while yeah, he would disappear from time to time, he was arguably the second most consistent player behind Martin in terms of performance and effort. He was the second-best defender behind Artest, and he played actual good minutes against actual good teams.

Everything with Garcia is theory -- in theory he's a good defender, except he negates good plays with mental lapses, in theory he's good on offense, except he's never shot consistently from outside and struggles to create his own shot, in theory he's a difference-maker except he can't channel his effort. Maybe he'll pan out, but I'm waiting to see it on the court, and I think it's foolhardy to consider him the small forward of the future.

I think Garcia broke out in his first year - just before he sprained his ankle on Miller's foot. Then he broke out again last year when Muss gave him minutes after 2/3 of the season had passed and Muss figured out he's pretty good. Garcia has already proven he can play. And he's proven that you've got to play him minutes for him to play well. Garcia is not just a 3, he's also 2 and a 1. He's a multiple position player. The new coach better get a clue real quick and start playing the guy - A LOT. And Petrie better fill the new coach in from the beginning so we don't see another replay of last year.

 

[Kingster]

Reportedly they're getting Iavaroni, I don't think he'll want Bibby running the point for him.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but what are the other point guards out there that might be on the market? Who would Memphis want other than Bibby?

 

[SacKings384]

Reportedly they're getting Iavaroni, I don't think he'll want Bibby running the point for him.

Quite the contrary... Ivaroni more importantly wants to keep his job. Which means he at least has to do something to win games now. Bibby is going to do that; a number 4 pick is not.

 

[Entity]

I mean, if you want to talk about consistency, Garcia was consistently bad last year until the last month. He shot under 40%, he was scattered on defense, and he didn't show any hint of improvement from the previous year. The last month? Pretty good, although the last month of the season was basically early Summer League and the competition was abysmal and disinterested.

I don't discount the possibility that Garcia could have a breakout year next year, but to me he has basically proved nothing. Salmons at least was solid, and while yeah, he would disappear from time to time, he was arguably the second most consistent player behind Martin in terms of performance and effort. He was the second-best defender behind Artest, and he played actual good minutes against actual good teams.

Everything with Garcia is theory -- in theory he's a good defender, except he negates good plays with mental lapses, in theory he's good on offense, except he's never shot consistently from outside and struggles to create his own shot, in theory he's a difference-maker except he can't channel his effort. Maybe he'll pan out, but I'm waiting to see it on the court, and I think it's foolhardy to consider him the small forward of the future.

you are right. To me Garcia needs to prove he is a solid 6th man before he is introduced as a starter. Artest or Salmons one has to go for that to happen. Garcia should be #1 off the bench or the 2 and the 3 and he needs to play like he did the last month of the season. He also needs to play good in spot starts and then he will be a starting 3.