Greivis Vasquez triple double 2/8/13 highlights

[jacklvyn]

All true. I think if people weren't doing the homer justification thing this wouldn't even be worthy of any more mention.

Greivez Vasquez very likely had his assist totals artificially raised last year by cheating scorekeepers. Just flat out, the truth. Very likely. Just the way it has long worked down there. Something people should know when trying to assess or use numbers with New Orleans PGs.

However in Vasquez's case last year the inflation does not look to rise to such a level as to essentially overstate the nature of his game, so its not worthy of major talking pointness unless you consider that 9apg mark to be signficiant.

Now, the thing about the "made the right pass/who cares" argument is this: Vasquez's New Orleans' offense was not one of the better ones last year. Nearly identical to ours in percentages, and one of the worst in pts scored (which is likely pace related):

New Orleans FG% .448
Sacramento FG% .447

New Orleans 3pt% .363
Sacramento 3pt% .363

New Orleans Pts/gm 94.1 (25th in NBA)
Sacramento Pts/gm 100.2 (10th in NBA)

So when you say "who cares he made the right pass"...well it comes down to if the numbers aren't legit, and the team numbers weren't sparkling with him at the PG, just how legit is he?? And that's a legit argument. Its not like there is a visible Nash effect. In fact our team last year appeared to get it done just about as well as Vasquez was with his. But of course that's a complex debate with many factors that we could argue about for months -- teammates, offenses, ball dominance and just so on, and before we were doen with the debate the season would be upon us and we would just see.

The offense talent of the Pelicans last year can't compete with the Kings at all. Vasquez played with an awful rookie shooting guard Rivers who shoots the worst percentage in the league for half season and then with a recovering Gordon for the other half season.
Like another poster said, the only reliable scoring option was Ryan Anderson.

The Pelicans simply ran play after play with Vasquez as the floor general so that his usage was so high, which I think it is what people mean the system inflates the assist number. I actually think that execution ability is his strength.

Out side of really nice passing skill set, his other strength is his spot up shooting(he improves his shooting every year), floater, his passion, and caring about winning. His pick and roll game is exciting to watch.

Pelicans fans have been complaining about his defense, hero ball, turnovers, and even "inflated" assists.
I can agree with the defense liability, especially defending pick and rolls. Monty was hard on him about it. He was getting better though.
He had to play hero ball because he was pathetically the only option before Gordon came back.
He had a high ast/tunover ratio, and we all know he is not Chris Paul.

 

[Gary]

missed the Vasquez thread, eh? answer is: both factor in. if you don't believe me, look no further than Brian Roberts, their backup PG. he stepped in for Vasquez when he was hurt and averaged 10APG in those 5 starts. the guy used to be a shooting guard in the German league two years ago.

Then why is his home and away assist stats virtually the same? Talking about Vasquez.

 

[Entity]

when your best shooter is a 40% eric gordon you will need scorekeeper help lol

 

[Gary]

My point is who cares about assist totals, if Vasquez makes the team better it does not matter how many assists he gets, if he averages 5 assists and helps the team that's a tremendous help. People are placing to much weight on numbers, Vasquez is a good guy and player who will make the team better. Patterson didn't average many assists and the moment he came into games last season the ball movement was so much better, Vasquez will do the same, people need to realize it's about impact on winning not numbers.....

His assist per game (not per 36 or 48, his actual per game stats) from home and away were +0.3apg at home That's not even enough to really make a thread about.

IT's home assist per game was exactly the same +0.3apg at home. It's not really enough to even care about. So Chris Paul had inflated stats at home. Vasquez didn't so why does it matter?

 

[Gary]

when your best shooter is a 40% eric gordon you will need scorekeeper help lol

0.3apg is a lot of help too I guess? You figure that most players have a better home stat so give him .1 or .2 for being at home vs. away, so the total from the "scorekeeper" if there is really a conspiracy (which there isn't) is about 0.1apg.. yikes! Call David Stern!

 

[Entity]

0.3apg is a lot of help too I guess? You figure that most players have a better home stat so give him .1 or .2 for being at home vs. away, so the total from the "scorekeeper" if there is really a conspiracy (which there isn't) is about 0.1apg.. yikes! Call David Stern!

thats a difference of 8.2 assist per year. can't call stern have to call Adam now

 

[funkykingston]

I don't know that it's worth doing too much arguing about Vasquez. His rookie deal ends after the season and my guess is that he was brought in as a stop gap which the chance that if he REALLY plays well that the Kings would have his Bird rights to resign him.

My best guess is that Malone is looking to establish an offense predicated on sharing the ball and that he'll help to establish that next year and then likely be cut loose after the season.

 

[Bricklayer]

His assist per game (not per 36 or 48, his actual per game stats) from home and away were +0.3apg at home That's not even enough to really make a thread about.

IT's home assist per game was exactly the same +0.3apg at home. It's not really enough to even care about. So Chris Paul had inflated stats at home. Vasquez didn't so why does it matter?

Stop that.

That's an absolutely naked attempt to confuse things. Its half a step up from lying. Per 36 or per 48 are the ONLY way to compare stats. You are just cheating for your own purposes. If Steve Nash plays 20min one night, and Jimmer Fredette plays 40min, there is a good chance Jimmer may end up with as many assists as Nash. The raw totals mean nothing without taking into account minutes. In particular when you are comparing a player to himself. Same player. Same system. Same coach. Same team. Just different arenas.

 

[Gary]

Stop that.

That's an absolutely naked attempt to confuse things. Its half a step up from lying. Per 36 or per 48 are the ONLY way to compare stats. You are just cheating for your own purposes. If Steve Nash plays 20min one night, and Jimmer Fredette plays 40min, there is a good chance Jimmer may end up with as many assists as Nash. The raw totals mean nothing without taking into account minutes. In particular when you are comparing a player to himself. Same player. Same system. Same coach. Same team. Just different arenas.

Yes yes I know.. I like putting the ACTUAL stats into the mix rather than "what he could have done over 48 or 36 minutes had he played that much". I find that it get's me into trouble when I do this with bench players with low minute per game totals (basically inflates their stats).

I know what you are getting at with this post but this whole assist difference between home and away meant pretty much nothing for Vasquez.

Take IT for instance. Two years ago he had more assists on the road, and last year he had more assists at home. Nobody had ever mentioned it here from what I remember.

What were his differences in assists home and away the last two years? It's a pain in the butt trying to get these stats from my phone.

 

[Bricklayer]

0.3apg is a lot of help too I guess? You figure that most players have a better home stat so give him .1 or .2 for being at home vs. away, so the total from the "scorekeeper" if there is really a conspiracy (which there isn't) is about 0.1apg.. yikes! Call David Stern!

I can't speak to most players, but I can say with great confidence that OUR players haven't benefitted from any home cooking.

Last 5 years our PG types per 48 differentials:
Beno: -0.8, -1.8, -0.2, --, --,
Reke: --,-0.5, +0.1, -1.2, +0.1
Thomas:--, --, --, +0.0, +0.5

IT last year was the only guy who's ever had even one slightly elevated home year. In fact Beno and Reke appear to have been bent over by the home scorekeeper as often as not. And as for not mentioning, it, I've long known that our guys weren't getting a bump, and this is the first time I noticed that IT has a minor one last year. However that's why I've gone back 5 years and multiple players in both locations. IT's bump last year looks like an aberration given all the years that have gone before. Vasquez's bump is just the continuation of a very long and notorious pattern.

 

[Gary]

I can't speak to most players, but I can say with great confidence that OUR players haven't benefitted from any home cooking.

Last 5 years our PG types per 48 differentials:
Beno: -0.8, -1.8, -0.2, --, --,
Reke: --,-0.5, +0.1, -1.2, +0.1
Thomas:--, --, --, +0.0, +0.5

IT last year was the only guy who's ever had even one slightly elevated home year. In fact Beno and Reke appear to have been bent over by the home scorekeeper as often as not. And as for not mentioning, it, I've long known that our guys weren't getting a bump, and this is the first time I noticed that IT has a minor one last year. However that's why I've gone back 5 years and multiple players in both locations. IT's bump last year looks like an aberration given all the years that have gone before. Vasquez's bump is just the continuation of a very long and notorious pattern.

It's something in the gumbo ... I am not going to put much stock into this argument though. The number difference for Greivis are just too slim for me to worry about. Do I think he will average 9apg here? Depends on which offence the Kings run, and whether or not Greivis has the ball most of the time.

I think we will be fine though.

 

[Hallama]

I believe the gates of the TDOS are beginning to open...at least we have Summer League tomorrow.

 

[Section 101]

All true. I think if people weren't doing the homer justification thing this wouldn't even be worthy of any more mention.

Greivez Vasquez very likely had his assist totals artificially raised last year by cheating scorekeepers. Just flat out, the truth. Very likely. Just the way it has long worked down there. Something people should know when trying to assess or use numbers with New Orleans PGs.

However in Vasquez's case last year the inflation does not look to rise to such a level as to essentially overstate the nature of his game, so its not worthy of major talking pointness unless you consider that 9apg mark to be signficiant.

Now, the thing about the "made the right pass/who cares" argument is this: Vasquez's New Orleans' offense was not one of the better ones last year. Nearly identical to ours in percentages, and one of the worst in pts scored (which is likely pace related):

New Orleans FG% .448
Sacramento FG% .447

New Orleans 3pt% .363
Sacramento 3pt% .363

New Orleans Pts/gm 94.1 (25th in NBA)
Sacramento Pts/gm 100.2 (10th in NBA)

So when you say "who cares he made the right pass"...well it comes down to if the numbers aren't legit, and the team numbers weren't sparkling with him at the PG, just how legit is he?? And that's a legit argument. Its not like there is a visible Nash effect. In fact our team last year appeared to get it done just about as well as Vasquez was with his. But of course that's a complex debate with many factors that we could argue about for months -- teammates, offenses, ball dominance and just so on, and before we were doen with the debate the season would be upon us and we would just see.

You do know that score keepers are NBA employees and are assigned by the league. It's not the same person every time.

Chris Paul 12/13

Home 10.2
Away 9.1

diff 1.1

11/12

Home 10.
Away 8.2

Diff 1.8
Away

 

[Entity]

I believe the gates of the TDOS are beginning to open...at least we have Summer League tomorrow.

I believe you are correct sir. we are a long way from trade rumors and free agent signings at this point.

 

[Bricklayer]

You do know that score keepers are NBA employees and are assigned by the league. It's not the same person every time.

Actaully that's not accurate, unless it has changed in the last year or two: the scorekeepers are local hires that are the responsibility of the home team. There is an annual centralized training thing, but otherwise its local yokels.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

The exact number of assists Vasquez will average is not all that significant. I'm pretty confident we won't have "The Vasquez Show" here in Sacramento every night.

The idea behind Vasquez is probably to have him run the offense with his court vision. Get Demarcus the ball where he likes it. Get McLemore the ball where he likes it. Find creases in the defense when the opportunity arises, whether with a pass or by slashing. By no means is the entire offense going to boil down to a Vasquez pick and roll every play down the court. At least I hope not.

And the idea behind his defense is that while he's slow, he's big and long, so there's the hope he can be Klay Thompson-like on defense.

 

[Arco Arena]

They are audited/reviewed.

It's actually quite easy with the rise of Synergy over the past ~5 years (all NBA teams and their television partners use it). Very easy to call out any shenanigans.

But hey, conspiracy theorists will believe what they want to believe.

 

[Padrino]

this argument feels like it's getting rather pedantic. grievis vasquez strikes me as a useful roleplayer who will get the ball moving and will take shots from within the flow of the offense. more than anything, i'm a fan of his size, because the kings still need rebounding help from their guard positions. but his defensive weaknesses are unfortunate, as the 1 and the 5 will continue to be problem areas for the kings on that side of the ball. you can cover for a weak defender at the 1 if you've got a sturdy defensive big up front, or cover for a weak defender at the 5 if you've got enough lockdown guys on the wing, but as we've seen in the last few seasons, the kings suffer mightily at the first and last line of defense, so it doesn't matter too much if anybody in between is doing their job...

it's why i remain unconvinced that mbah a moute will have a major impact on the team, defensively, even if he's a full-time starter. the kings have to, at the very least, acquire a defensive big who can play alongside cousins, otherwise it won't matter an ounce that their ball movement looks prettier because of vasquez. they'll still be giving up way too much ground on defense. i suppose some fans don't mind the losing as long as the offense looks good. i'm not one of those. the defense still needs to improve considerably, and i also don't know that the kings will get by on offense without adequate penetration. that said, it's hard to imagine them finding both a) a defensive big that can effectively start next to cousins, and b) a starting-quality SF who plays defense and can score at the rim effectively...

it would have been much easier to stomach the loss of tyreke evans had the kings been able to acquire andre iguodala, because at least then you have a couple of wing players in iggy and mclemore who can go to work covering for vasquez and halting opposing penetration long enough to give the kings' weak frontline D a break...

 

[jalfa]

Then why is his home and away assist stats virtually the same? Talking about Vasquez.

maybe the scorekeeper thing doesn't factor in to a large degree, but I was also talking about the system thing that jacklvyn mentioned. while there were no other real scoring threats in NO, there was also no one else capable of creating any offense. he basically had to do most of the creating for that team and were running multiple p'n'rs for him pretty much every possession and he did have quite a few guys he could set up. Aminu and Davis as athletic finishers, Anderson and Mason as three point shooters, Lopez as a p'n'r guy. the way the system was set up, somebody had to get those assists. this is where Roberts comes in and is, at least for a few games, able to replicate what Vasquez did.

 

[jalfa]

Vasquez's New Orleans' offense was not one of the better ones last year.

16th best in the league according to offensive rating via the NBA stats tool, 3 spots under the Kings.

 

[Kingster]

I'll go out on a limb and speculate how Malone is going to use Vasquez. I think he's going to play the match-up game and depending on the opposing lineup he'll play Vasquez or IT a lot more. The two players are extremely different in what they bring to the table and I can see one playing much better against some lineups than others. Against one team I can see Malone wanting to scrunch the floor and use a Vasquez on defense; and then on offense use Vasquez to throw over the top of the defense. In another lineup I can see Malone wanting a pg like IT to penetrate the ball and put some defensive pressure on the smaller pgs of the league. I doubt Vasquez is going to play a consistent 38 minutes a game. I'm very willing to take the egg of my face on this one though.

 

[jacklvyn]

maybe the scorekeeper thing doesn't factor in to a large degree, but I was also talking about the system thing that jacklvyn mentioned. while there were no other real scoring threats in NO, there was also no one else capable of creating any offense. he basically had to do most of the creating for that team and were running multiple p'n'rs for him pretty much every possession and he did have quite a few guys he could set up. Aminu and Davis as athletic finishers, Anderson and Mason as three point shooters, Lopez as a p'n'r guy. the way the system was set up, somebody had to get those assists. this is where Roberts comes in and is, at least for a few games, able to replicate what Vasquez did.

That's really a small sample size. I am not sure if he can do the same thing once the teams learns who he is and figure out how to defend him.
I was quite surprised he picked up his point guard game late during the last a few games after playing like a shooting guard the whole season.

 

[jacklvyn]

I'll go out on a limb and speculate how Malone is going to use Vasquez. I think he's going to play the match-up game and depending on the opposing lineup he'll play Vasquez or IT a lot more. The two players are extremely different in what they bring to the table and I can see one playing much better against some lineups than others. Against one team I can see Malone wanting to scrunch the floor and use a Vasquez on defense; and then on offense use Vasquez to throw over the top of the defense. In another lineup I can see Malone wanting a pg like IT to penetrate the ball and put some defensive pressure on the smaller pgs of the league. I doubt Vasquez is going to play a consistent 38 minutes a game. I'm very willing to take the egg of my face on this one though.

Exactly.

For the games I watched from Vasquez, he struggles playing against lightening fast guards, especially when the opponent picked up Lopez's men to run pick and roll.
They were both slow...

I hope he can improve in that end, but if not playing IT is a good choice.

 

['89 Kings Fan]

Unlike Collison and Roberts, Vasquez actually looks to pass first. Not saying that his number weren't inflated with the Hornets but the Kings need this mentality.

Being a poor shooter is a bug, not a feature.

 

[jalfa]

That's really a small sample size. I am not sure if he can do the same thing once the teams learns who he is and figure out how to defend him.
I was quite surprised he picked up his point guard game late during the last a few games after playing like a shooting guard the whole season.

never said he would, just that the system is conducive to a point guard picking up tons of assists.

 

[ESP47]

Being a poor shooter is a bug, not a feature.

Being a poor shooter that shoots more than anyone *cough* Monta...is an even bigger bug.

 

[The_Jamal]

All true. I think if people weren't doing the homer justification thing this wouldn't even be worthy of any more mention.

Greivez Vasquez very likely had his assist totals artificially raised last year by cheating scorekeepers. Just flat out, the truth. Very likely. Just the way it has long worked down there. Something people should know when trying to assess or use numbers with New Orleans PGs.

However in Vasquez's case last year the inflation does not look to rise to such a level as to essentially overstate the nature of his game, so its not worthy of major talking pointness unless you consider that 9apg mark to be signficiant.

Now, the thing about the "made the right pass/who cares" argument is this: Vasquez's New Orleans' offense was not one of the better ones last year. Nearly identical to ours in percentages, and one of the worst in pts scored (which is likely pace related):

New Orleans FG% .448
Sacramento FG% .447

New Orleans 3pt% .363
Sacramento 3pt% .363

New Orleans Pts/gm 94.1 (25th in NBA)
Sacramento Pts/gm 100.2 (10th in NBA)

So when you say "who cares he made the right pass"...well it comes down to if the numbers aren't legit, and the team numbers weren't sparkling with him at the PG, just how legit is he?? And that's a legit argument. Its not like there is a visible Nash effect. In fact our team last year appeared to get it done just about as well as Vasquez was with his. But of course that's a complex debate with many factors that we could argue about for months -- teammates, offenses, ball dominance and just so on, and before we were doen with the debate the season would be upon us and we would just see.

It's not a legit argument. NO was without their 2 best players for a significant portion of the year.

Vasquez played 18 games without Davis and 40 games without Gordon. Call me crazy, but I don't call a team where Ryan Anderson and Robin Lopez are your 2 best offensive options for a significant portion of the year exactly a team brimming with offensive talent. That's like asking Patrick Patterson and Jason Thompson to take over as our lead offensive options. It's not pretty.

 

[kingwin]

[video]http://t.co/40pFRqnvxH[/video]

news 10 interview, he seems really excited..hope he can be a great addition...hes at the opposite end of the spectrum from tyrekes intro presser with the pelicans.

 

[Glenn]

Sometimes athletes resort to kind of a script in what they say and actually there is nothing wrong with that for certain people. Some people are not comfortable being interviewed and need a script to follow. This guy seems happy. He understands what he is getting into more than I expected. I hardly believe anyone really want to be here but I REALLY believe he wants to be here. He wants to be a leader, he will do whatever asked, and he wants to win. Note how he uses the terms "us" and "we" and "our fans." He's already a King. I don't want to argue that what a guy says has to be proven on the court as ultimately that's where the real answer is. However, this is a good start.

If the PG is the leader on the court, he embraces the idea. Tyreke had trouble with that. Please, please, don't interpret this as meaning I didn't want Tyreke but if there is going to be a culture change, this guy is a nice start. I think DMC will have a lot of DFC games with this guy at PG and I think his biggest cheerleader will be is Vasquez. I didn't sense the same attitude from IT as he seemed to be focused on his own game. I WiLL argue that point.

 

[dude12]

It's not a legit argument. NO was without their 2 best players for a significant portion of the year.

Vasquez played 18 games without Davis and 40 games without Gordon. Call me crazy, but I don't call a team where Ryan Anderson and Robin Lopez are your 2 best offensive options for a significant portion of the year exactly a team brimming with offensive talent. That's like asking Patrick Patterson and Jason Thompson to take over as our lead offensive options. It's not pretty.

You are correct. It boggles the mind as to some of the reasoning going on here. If one has seen Vazquez play and they put their homerism away, GV clearly has an opportunity to be a positive impact on this team with his style of play and that he can be a better fit with this team than the player he's replacing, who is clearly not a PG. inflated assist totals? What a load.....lolol.