[Grades] Grades v. Blazers 04/15/12

Kings Player of the Game

  • Tyreke Evans

    Votes: 1 3.3%
  • DeMarcus Cousins

    Votes: 11 36.7%
  • Marcus Thornton

    Votes: 10 33.3%
  • Isaiah Thomas

    Votes: 5 16.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 3 10.0%

  • Total voters
    30
  • Poll closed .
#31
Who was Reke hyped over, while actually the favorite to win ROY? Spencer? JT? Noc? Beno? Omri?

Who's IT hyped over without a chance at winning ROY? Cuz? Reke? MT?

Reke was hands down the best player on the team as a rookie. IT might be the 4th best player on this team, but if you only listened to the hype you'd think he's a 5 time All Star who'll be leading us to homecourt advantage in the playoffs a couple weeks from now.
Just the hype in general with Jerry's coin if you don't see what I see then you don't know basketball etc. The whole 20-5-5 thing.

Just saying what you see now is what some of us saw during Evans rookie season. The only difference is you don't agree with it this year.

Let's not forget that if Blake didn't get hurt he would most likely would have been ROY instead.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#32
Not sure I am feeling that comparison. Height aside, you would be hardpressed to find two more different players. Nor I think do you want to doom IT to Avery's fate, bouncing in and out of the league, playing for 6-8 different teams. Avery was called the Little General because he was a high assist pass first PG with a broke jumper with no range. On top of that of course he was small, but not even small athletic like Isaiah. Just small.

IT bears a lot more resemblance to a Booby Jackson than he does an Avery, although he's a more natural passer than Bobby was. But he's a gunner, and a high energy fearless gunner who suddenly has range on his shot and is not afraid to go inside.
He reminds me more of Spud Webb. Not saying he's that good. But his style of play, confidence and athletic ability all resemble Spud.
 

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
#34
Just the hype in general with Jerry's coin if you don't see what I see then you don't know basketball etc. The whole 20-5-5 thing.

Just saying what you see now is what some of us saw during Evans rookie season. The only difference is you don't agree with it this year.

Let's not forget that if Blake didn't get hurt he would most likely would have been ROY instead.
Whether or not Griffin would have won ROY had he played is pretty irrelevant. OK, completely irrelevant considering he didn't play a single regular season game and wasn't a part of the discussion.

The point would appear to be this:

Was Tyreke hyped by the organization in his rookie year? Yes. Was Tyreke the best and most exciting player on the team his rookie year? Yes. Did Tyreke have a legitimate chance at winning ROY? Yes, in fact he did win.

Is IT hyped by the organization in his rookie year? Yes. Is IT the best and most exciting player on the team this year? Probably not. IT is exciting, true. But Cousins is a more valuable player by any stretch of the imagination, and cogent arguments can certainly be made for Tyreke and MT23 as more valuable. Does IT have a legitimate chance at winning ROY? No, not at all. Kyrie Irving will win in a landslide.

So was Tyreke over-hyped? No - he lived up to the hype that year, best player, ROY, 20-5-5, he did it all.

Is IT over-hyped? Maybe. He's exciting, but at the very least he's not a legitimate candidate for ROY. If you ask me, that's the insulting part about the hype. Hey, tell me IT is exciting. Tell me I want to go see him play. Show me highlight reels. But don't tell me he's got a ROY campaign - it's just silly and it makes the marketing look bad.
 
#35
Whether or not Griffin would have won ROY had he played is pretty irrelevant. OK, completely irrelevant considering he didn't play a single regular season game and wasn't a part of the discussion.

The point would appear to be this:

Was Tyreke hyped by the organization in his rookie year? Yes. Was Tyreke the best and most exciting player on the team his rookie year? Yes. Did Tyreke have a legitimate chance at winning ROY? Yes, in fact he did win.

Is IT hyped by the organization in his rookie year? Yes. Is IT the best and most exciting player on the team this year? Probably not. IT is exciting, true. But Cousins is a more valuable player by any stretch of the imagination, and cogent arguments can certainly be made for Tyreke and MT23 as more valuable. Does IT have a legitimate chance at winning ROY? No, not at all. Kyrie Irving will win in a landslide.

So was Tyreke over-hyped? No - he lived up to the hype that year, best player, ROY, 20-5-5, he did it all.

Is IT over-hyped? Maybe. He's exciting, but at the very least he's not a legitimate candidate for ROY. If you ask me, that's the insulting part about the hype. Hey, tell me IT is exciting. Tell me I want to go see him play. Show me highlight reels. But don't tell me he's got a ROY campaign - it's just silly and it makes the marketing look bad.
Evans was over hyped as a superstar and savior of the team. Yes he was ROY and did deserve it. Doesn't mean he wasn't over-hyped in the process.

I think people here are underestimating IT's ROY chances. Is Irving the best rookie this year? Yes. Has he played enough games to be considered a ROY candidate? That is the grey area where he may lose some votes.

Don't forget, that in Evans 20-5-5 rookie year he almost didn't play enough minutes to be qualified in the stats.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#37
Don't forget, that in Evans 20-5-5 rookie year he almost didn't play enough minutes to be qualified in the stats.
And yet he also put up the best stats.

IT has not. Has no chance. None. The only people in the country who think he does are people who have been sucking down the Grant and Jerry hype fumes in the greater Sacramento area. Nobody wants to embarrass themsevles on rookie of the year. Nobody wants to be the guy who picks the ordinary player over the future star and in a couple of years has to cop to it. IT didn't even start for half the year. Since he has started he still hasn't put up the numbers Irving has as a starter. Its just not happening. Next question would be Rubio. That's possible that IT might outpoint him. But Rubio will still be getting the future star consideration, and on the year his overall minutes will not be that far behind ITs.
 
#38
Just to shore up my point on Irving missing games this is the chart for a normal season from nba.com

Category

Minimums
SCORING:

70 games or 1,400 points
REBOUNDS:

70 games or 800 rebounds
FIELD GOAL %:

300 field goals made
FREE THROW %:

125 free throws made
3PT %:

55 three-point field goals made
ASSISTS:

70 games or 400 assists
STEALS:

70 games or 125 steals
BLOCKED SHOTS:

70 games or 100 blocked shots
MINUTES:

70 games or 2,000 minutes
ASST/TO RATIO:

200 assists
STLS/TO RATIO:

82 steals

*MINIMUMS FOR NBA ROOKIE LEADERS
(half of the overall-requirement)
So in a normal 82 game season a player needs to play 70 games (85%) or 1400 pts which translates to 56 games and 1092 pts in a 66 game season.

Irving is at 46 games with 7 to go. He would have to play in all remaining games or score 226 points in the remaining games to qualify his stats this year. Last report is he is missing tomorrows game.
 
#39
IT and Reke didn't ask to have ROY nights and poster campaigns and ticket packages, the organisation is trying to create a positive out of what has been a fairly awful season.

Why that creates resentment toward the players i have no idea.

Just because you dislike Reke doesn't mean he didn't deserve ROY, he did. And just because you hate Keith Smart doesn't mean IT hasn't played well.. he has.

This bickering is just well.. sad really.
 
#40
IT and Reke didn't ask to have ROY nights and poster campaigns and ticket packages, the organisation is trying to create a positive out of what has been a fairly awful season.

Why that creates resentment toward the players i have no idea.

Just because you dislike Reke doesn't mean he didn't deserve ROY, he did. And just because you hate Keith Smart doesn't mean IT hasn't played well.. he has.

This bickering is just well.. sad really.
I totally agree. IT doesn't have to a future star to be ROY. He doesn't compete with Evans or Cousins or Thornton. Come on you guys, give it up. IT had one of the best seasons of this years crop of Rookies. That is all he has to do to be considered. IT has had one helluva year and if comes in third in ROY he has still had a very good and surprising rookie year. He deserves credit not criticism.
 
#41
Would the same criticism IT is getting now for daring to be a runner up, have applied to Reke if Blake had not been injured and Reke was a runner up. I think not. Give IT a break. He has been a bright spot this season in a very dismal year. Is he perfect? No, and his ideal role soon may be coming off the bench, but for now the Kings have asked him to step in to the spotlight to be a draw for a team that needs every draw it can get.
 

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
#42
I think people have missed a subtlety here. Some folks seem to think IT is being criticized here. He is not, certainly not by me. The criticism is directed at the front office for hyping a player in what I think is an unreasonable fashion. If the front office were trying to push the idea that Tyreke should be league MVP this year, the criticism would be the same (in fact even harsher, because Tyreke is a lot farther from MVP than IT is from ROY this year).

Don't misinterpret this as bashing IT. He's doing his thing, and doing it pretty well.
 
#45
I think there is.

To me he's obviously disgusted with himself and relieved he got bailed out of being the goat who cost us the game and extended the loosing streak on a roster that badly needs something to go their way.

He was put in the game for that final defensive play to get us that stop - and he allowed a step back 3 with 5 seconds on the clock that unless MT hit his game winner would loose us the game - AND for a vet like him he totally forgot we had a foul to give and instead he back off Wes and fell for his stepback - that's just inexcusable and the cause for him being so upset with himself as a leader and a vet on this team feeling like he let everyone down rightfully so.

His reaction after the MT shot to me is more relief and like "OH THANK GOD" that he got bailed out of this my MT still mixed with that disappoint\disgust at himself for that mistake prior (I also remember Marcus pointing at Cisco a few seconds after he took it and both of them hogging on the floor).


I strongly disagree with anyone who claims players try to "tank". tanking is made by the front office - not to mention Cisco is a model professional and I wouldn't put it past him to take his mistake to heart like that.


On another note I do hope he supports the tanknation and carries it out to the rest of the fellas till the season ends, cause we absolutely can't win more then 1 game till the end of the season:D
 
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#46
I think people have missed a subtlety here. Some folks seem to think IT is being criticized here. He is not, certainly not by me. The criticism is directed at the front office for hyping a player in what I think is an unreasonable fashion. If the front office were trying to push the idea that Tyreke should be league MVP this year, the criticism would be the same (in fact even harsher, because Tyreke is a lot farther from MVP than IT is from ROY this year).

Don't misinterpret this as bashing IT. He's doing his thing, and doing it pretty well.
I get your point but I see no problem in the Kings front office hyping IT. They would be remiss if they didn't. For Tyreke it was so bad it was embarrassing but he won the honor. IT's hype is small potatos and justified. In the above I'm afraid I have seen criticism of IT. Sorry.
 
#47
Just to shore up my point on Irving missing games this is the chart for a normal season from nba.com



So in a normal 82 game season a player needs to play 70 games (85%) or 1400 pts which translates to 56 games and 1092 pts in a 66 game season.

Irving is at 46 games with 7 to go. He would have to play in all remaining games or score 226 points in the remaining games to qualify his stats this year. Last report is he is missing tomorrows game.
Whoa whoa whoa wait. Irving is not going to qualify for ROY? Is there any truth to this? If there is, he cannot possibly reach 226 points by end of season.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#48
Whoa whoa whoa wait. Irving is not going to qualify for ROY? Is there any truth to this? If there is, he cannot possibly reach 226 points by end of season.


No no, that is just sheer speculation from the IT for ROY!!! hype department. There is no qualification for ROY. A guy could play in 1 game and still get it. I don't know if there is a rule that they even have to play in that 1 game actually.

He was just saying Irving would not have played in enough games for his stats to officially qualify for leading scorer etc. etc., but again, that doesn't matter for any of the postseason awards. You can win MVP playing 66 games, or DPOY or anything else. Same thing with ROY. And in the end IT is going to play about 1600 minutes this year. Rubio is at 1430, and Irving I think is at 1480 or so. Its not a huge gap. Certainly not enough to turn any sort of debate between much more hyped players that people think are going to major faces of the league, and IT.
 
#49
IT's per/36 numbers compare very favorably to Irvings and he takes about 5 less shots per game. We're talking about the first pick in the entire draft and the very last. This is a phenomenal story whether or not you're unnecessarily bringing the ROY conversation into it.

Also, if your point is to criticize something MSE is doing, spare the outrage. It's literally one of the most poorly run enterprises in existence. Why bother pointing out that their marketing of their rookie is dumb when everything they do, EVERYTHING, is dumb.

Some people have an ax to grind with IT and I don't get it. His story has been one of the few good things about the Kings this year. He's one of the best second round picks in the history of the league and people are letting their frustration with the coach and management sully an otherwise wonderful story.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#50
He's one of the best second round picks in the history of the league
Whoa whoa whoa. No, not even close. Peeps forget that Manu was drafted inthe 2nd round, Monta Ellis, Michael Redd, George McGinnis, Boozer, Hornacek, Mark Price, World B. Free, Calvin Murphy, Spencer Haywood, Tiny Archibald, Dennis Rodman, Alex English...the list is a lengthy one. I don't always get the Kings telecast -- I sincerely hope that isn't something else Jerry has been shoveling to Kings fans?

He is however the best Mr. Irrelevant ever drafted, and its not even close.
 
#51
Whoa whoa whoa. No, not even close. Peeps forget that Manu was drafted inthe 2nd round, Monta Ellis, Michael Redd, George McGinnis, Boozer, Hornacek, Mark Price, World B. Free, Calvin Murphy, Spencer Haywood, Tiny Archibald, Dennis Rodman, Alex English...the list is a lengthy one. I don't always get the Kings telecast -- I sincerely hope that isn't something else Jerry has been shoveling to Kings fans?

He is however the best Mr. Irrelevant ever drafted, and its not even close.
not only was manu ginobili a second-round pick, he was the second-to-last pick in the draft. if he had slid one more spot, isaiah thomas wouldn't even be the best final pick in the draft ever. now, does the fact that there are many second-rounders of more historical note diminish isaiah's value to the kings? not really. its just a shame that this team likely won't see enough roster improvements to shift thomas into a much more ideal sixth man role. i'm certainly sick of listening to MSE rave about him, because i know better. but, ultimately, thomas is a bright spot for the kings, because no matter what his role on this team ends up being, in theory or in practice, the kings managed to get maximum value out of the 60th pick in the draft. the kings may not be major players in the trade market. the maloofs may be interfering in potential free agent signings. but petrie is still drafting well. can't fault that, even if the kings end up losing every one of those picks to an ever-shrinking payroll, and certainly can't fault thomas, who is making the most of his minutes, even if his performance is vastly overstated by MSE and a sector of the fanbase. most of those kinda late second-rounders scrub outta the league altogether. barring injury, thomas is going to be a rotation player his entire career. good for him. but i'm sure even he doesn't believe this ROY hype. i follow him on twitter. i've watched him in interviews. the kid's level-headed, from my perspective. the kings' organization, however, is not...
 
#52
Whoa whoa whoa. No, not even close. Peeps forget that Manu was drafted inthe 2nd round, Monta Ellis, Michael Redd, George McGinnis, Boozer, Hornacek, Mark Price, World B. Free, Calvin Murphy, Spencer Haywood, Tiny Archibald, Dennis Rodman, Alex English...the list is a lengthy one. I don't always get the Kings telecast -- I sincerely hope that isn't something else Jerry has been shoveling to Kings fans?

He is however the best Mr. Irrelevant ever drafted, and its not even close.
Whoa whoa whoa. Harp on the straw man. IT's rookie season is "one of the best", for a second round pick, in the history of the league. That's indisputable.

It's a stretch to assume I'm intending to compare a rookie to a matured all-star.

FWIW, IT's rookie season has been MUCH more impressive than Manu's, Alex English's, Ellis's, Redd's, etc.

In fact, how many people on your list have had an indisputably better rookie year than IT?

People can be so pedantic. During Evans' rookie year, some people had such trouble acknowledging the historic nature of it because they were too hung up on the comparison to Lebron/Oscar/Jordan.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#54
It is amazing how well a second round pick can do on a team that is absolute crap.
No, not its not -- that's the whole key. On a good team IT might barely be playing. If he was playing it would be off the bench. When you're a nobody you need the minutes a bad team can provide you to establish yourself.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#55
Whoa whoa whoa. Harp on the straw man. IT's rookie season is "one of the best", for a second round pick, in the history of the league. That's indisputable.

It's a stretch to assume I'm intending to compare a rookie to a matured all-star.

FWIW, IT's rookie season has been MUCH more impressive than Manu's, Alex English's, Ellis's, Redd's, etc.

In fact, how many people on your list have had an indisputably better rookie year than IT?

People can be so pedantic. During Evans' rookie year, some people had such trouble acknowledging the historic nature of it because they were too hung up on the comparison to Lebron/Oscar/Jordan.


Indeed, quite the stretch to assume:

He's one of the best second round picks in the history of the league
meant "He's one of the best second round picks in the history of the league"
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#57
No, not its not -- that's the whole key. On a good team IT might barely be playing. If he was playing it would be off the bench. When you're a nobody you need the minutes a bad team can provide you to establish yourself.
I should have put some sarcasm tag on what I said. In comparison to the other players on this team, IT looks good. At that, the team is #4 from the bottom. KingsFans don't like to admit this but our team sucks and has a coach that sucks. If it were not for the fact of both factors being in place, no one would know who Isaiah Thomas was. Is he one of the best Kings? Yes. Is he a great basketball player? No. And the implied comparison to Manu is wishful thinking. If this team actually spent some money on good ball oplayers, IT would be a bench player but almost to cover the fact the FO has done little if nothing other than two good drafts, not three but two, the FO covers up their inadequacy and tries to pull the wool over the eyes of its own fans by implying they were damn clever to pick a guy in the 2nd round that could be ROY.
 
#58
Has IT had one of the best rookie seasons of any of the other 59 drafted rookies? I think so. What's with the asterisk craze on this site?
He's 5'9 and some guys here hate short people, thats what I gather, or they hate that the attention is not on Tyreke like it was his rookie year.

I mean, you'd think when the 60th pick in the draft plays so well and so above any expectation people will try and see the 99% positives of the story - but no, they have to focus on the 1% negative and obsess about the team PR campaign for their rookie (and if you go on and ask people around there will be MAYBE 0.5% who actually think he deserves ROY or will get it(considering all the others such as rubio/Irving are eligable).

Now the talk is our team sucks and if it was a winning team he wouldn't see time on the floor or play this good?

Well news flash - the beloved child of this forum would also not have his name up there with Lebron, Oscar and MJ or have anywhere close to the numbers he had his rookie season on a normal winning team cause no one in his right mind would let the Tyreke-Ball that was going on here 2 years ago happen.

It's like people look for every small thing to obsess and hate on IT, I honestly just don't get it - especially when he's one of our own with such a lovely underdog story behind him being a nice person to top it all off aswell as a good player.

Haters gonna hate though I guess.
 
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VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#59
Could we just drop the stupid "hater" tag?

I'm glad we have IT to give us a bit of a bright spot. I think he's an incredible player with heart like Bobby Jackson. I personally do not understand the tendency by some to undermine any positive commentary about him, but then I didn't understand it when some people did it to Kevin Martin, either.

Hold on to your favorite players and cheer them all you like. No words on a message board can take that away from you.
 
#60
He's 5'9 and some guys here hate short people, thats what I gather, or they hate that the attention is not on Tyreke like it was his rookie year.

I mean, you'd think when the 60th pick in the draft plays so well and so above any expectation people will try and see the 99% positives of the story - but no, they have to focus on the 1% negative and obsess about the team PR campaign for their rookie (and if you go on and ask people around there will be MAYBE 0.5% who actually think he deserves ROY or will get it(considering all the others such as rubio/Irving are eligable).

Now the talk is our team sucks and if it was a winning team he wouldn't see time on the floor or play this good?

Well news flash - the beloved child of this forum would also not have his name up there with Lebron, Oscar and MJ or have anywhere close to the numbers he had his almighty rookie season on a normal winning team cause no one in his right mind would let the Tyreke-Ball that was going on here 2 years ago happen.

It's like people look for every small thing to obsess and hate on IT, I honestly just don't get it - especially when he's one of our own with such a lovely underdog story behind him being a nice person to top it all off aswell as a good player.

Haters gonna hate though I guess.
your context is incorrect. personally, i am quite fond of the little rocket engine. but in my estimation, thomas' size (not just his height, mind you) is a tremendous problem, defensively. stronger guards can and have run straight through him, and yes, taller guards can and have shot over him. i'd prefer a backcourt combination of evans and williams that can compete defensively on any given night, while running offensive sets through cousins in the high post. or, at the very least, i'd like to see a thomas/evans/williams starting combo that provides enough defense to compensate for weaknesses elsewhere. but continuing to start two defensive sieves in thomas and thornton is simply a no-win situation. i don't like this nonsensical ROY campaign because i find the elevation of thomas has come at the expense of better players, and i want what's best for the team. its not "hating" to point out that at least one of either thomas or thornton should be coming off the bench in a move to improve defensive balance in the starting lineup and offensive balance in the second unit. that's just good sense. i've been saying it all season long: you balance your rotation...

now, its quite fine and dandy to look at the positives, but i'm not terribly interested in ra-ra'ing a single player beyond his potential. its fortunate that thomas seems like a level-headed kid, because otherwise this overblown campaigning might be detrimental to his development. regardless, i'd rather look at the big picture in one of the most disappointing kings' seasons in recent memory. tyreke's rookie year was, for better or worse, an entirely different bag of tricks. he was the front runner for rookie of the year, and, outside of the promising but inconsistent and volatile omri casspi, the success of his unique skill set was the only bright spot of that season. this season was supposed to be much, much different. the fans were not supposed to see all of their ra-ra's locked up in the performance of a single player again. demarcus cousins and tyreke evans were supposed to be developed further, and the team as a whole was supposed to begin taking strides towards legitimacy. isaiah thomas' emergence should have been icing on that cake, rather than the entire three-course meal. significant progress has not occurred, and, payroll issues aside, i lay significant blame at the feet of the kings' head coach, who has, seemingly, exactly zero ideas about how best to utilize his two most talented players. i am not some embittered tyreke fan who can't stand to see the spotlight taken off of him. rather, i am bitter that the kings' most talented players are not being maximized in their usage. its shameful, to be perfectly honest. you do not sabotage the future of your team by consistently taking the ball out of the hands of cousins and evans, especially when you have an ownership group that's doing enough to sabotage the team already...

none of this is isaiah thomas' fault, though. he has performed admirably in the face of rising expectations. but this team will not live or die by his development. again, he's an icing on the cake kind of player. he's a nice underdog story. he's a bobby jackson type of sparkplug that you want on your bench and in your locker room. but i'm sorry, he's not meat and potatoes. news flash: the modern nba is a grown *** man's league. it just is. the nate robinson's of the league can find success, but its usually of a nomadic variety (played for new york, traded to boston, traded to oklahoma city, waived, signed by, guess who? the warriors). thomas has the right kinda me-against-the-trees attitude that will help him survive in the nba, but his success in sacramento is the result of a perfect storm. the kings began the season without a guard who can effectively complement tyreke evans' skillset. jimmer was never gonna fill that role, and has underperformed, either way, which then opened the door for thomas' rise. his head coach is also a former point guard, and runs an uptempo, smallball-oriented offense that depends on speed but forgoes honest defense in favor of reach-in tactics. i have no qualms with thomas' emergence as a rotation player, but it should not come at the expense of demarcus cousins and tyreke evans, who are being featured less and less in the kings' offensive schemes. if the kings were winning, it'd be one thing, but the losing has increased since the all star break, with a home-heavy schedule, and with thomas starting at pg. keith smart is running a gimmick offense that doesn't motivate players to compete on the defensive end. he, or somebody on his staff, needs to exercise some creativity in the half court set, while drawing up some honest defensive schemes. if you wanna perpetually restart your rebuild while you're already in the middle of it, then go ahead and continue the gimmick ball, alienating cousins and evans until they decide to go play for a team that would more consistently value their unique skill sets. the maloofs probably won't [be able to] pony up the cash to re-sign them, anyway...
 
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