Geoff Petrie's trades

[exGrizzly]

Is anyone interested in discussing Petrie's recent trades:

1) Webber
2) Peja
3) Bibby
4) whoever else from the core I'm forgetting.

To me the Webber and Bibby trades were absolutely horrible and largely responsible for our current state. The Webber trade was worse because it actually hurt us by talking on Kenny Thomas' contract but the Bibby trade was nearly as bad, as all we did was make the Hawks' team better instead of pleasing ourselves also. Bibby starts for the Hawks yet the guy he was traded for cannot even get on the court for this horrible team.

Anyway I think Petrie's drafting has been very good but his trading for the last number of years has been terrible.

 

[Nighthawk1]

personally, I don't see any reason to discuss these trades... It's just headed down a road that multiple other roads have gone down. Peja dissapears in big games, Webber was done, Christie was past his prime, and Bibby probably hurt the most but it was the first step to completely refocusing the team towards rebuilding...

 

[Kev.in]

The Webber trade. Wow, I wish I could never hear about it again. Barnes is the only one out of that trade still contributing in the NBA! Webber is off the books, retired and we're still paying 8 figures for Thomas and Abdur-Rahim. The only thing saving that deal from being a historical failure is that Webber didn't go on to do big things at any of his other stops.

Peja's body is breaking down, at least we got motivated by Artest and made the playoffs that season. But then we move Artest for potentially nothing if Greene and the 1st rounder don't pan out.

The Bibby trade, that one hurts because now we have Shelden Williams and it messed up Kevin Martin because Bibby was a reliable scorer and ballhandler and he actually did a good job of setting up Martin when the opportunities arose.

Petrie's track record on making trades the last few years is definitely not getting a passing grade.

 

[RalphySampson]

Well don't forget that Petrie was responsible for puting together the Richmond for Webber trade which was the start of a lot of fun for us for many years.

I think he is better at building a winning team when it's on the way up. He apparently struggles rebuilding a team that is total garbage.

 

[Gary]

You need a good solid veteran in order to make things work well. You can draft all the Dwight Howards you want, but if you don't have a Hedo/Lewis to put in there as a stabilizing piece(s) then you probably won't go far.

Same goes for Lebron James. It takes them bringing in guys like Wallace, Williams, and Szczerbiak to bring stability.

We are a leader and a PG away from the playoffs imo. A good PG will make others around him better. Look at the "Steve Nash effect". Matt Barnes a 42% 3pt shooter taking the most 3pt shots in his career? Nash can turn any scrub swingman into a deep threat. It's crazy what a good PG will do for you.

 

[bajaden]

You need a good solid veteran in order to make things work well. You can draft all the Dwight Howards you want, but if you don't have a Hedo/Lewis to put in there as a stabilizing piece(s) then you probably won't go far.

Same goes for Lebron James. It takes them bringing in guys like Wallace, Williams, and Szczerbiak to bring stability.

We are a leader and a PG away from the playoffs imo. A good PG will make others around him better. Look at the "Steve Nash effect". Matt Barnes a 42% 3pt shooter taking the most 3pt shots in his career? Nash can turn any scrub swingman into a deep threat. It's crazy what a good PG will do for you.

Well said. Jordan couldn't win until he had Pippin and a few other pieces. You need a Jordan, but you also need the complimentary pieces too. Look at Pistol Pete. One of the best players to ever suit up. But he played on a bad team his whole career and never won anything. Patience is needed.

 

[kingsnation]

Is anyone interested in discussing Petrie's recent trades:

1) Webber
2) Peja
3) Bibby
4) whoever else from the core I'm forgetting.

The only one that is actually recent is the Bibby one.. IMHO, the rest I see no point in digging up ..

For me - I wasn't too upset over the Bibby trade at the time because I actually thought Beno could be our PG of the future.

 

[ParniValjak]

And this is the problem with fans rating trades because they do not look at the overall picture. They look at what they got for a player from the talent perspective but a GM has a lot of other factors that impact the decision. The every day running of basketball operations.

Take Bibby trade as an example. If we was on our books we would be paying pretty big amount of luxury tax. The fans couldn't give a **** about this but its a factor when making a mover and running a franchise. Not only would we be paying the luxury tax, but as a team thats over the luxury tax treshold, we wouldn't be getting the payment that the team under the luxury tax threshold get. So every dollar that the league gets from the team over the salary cap is divided amongs clubs that are under that luxury tax treshold.

So Bibby trade is no where near as bad as people are making it out to be. While it would have been better if we got a 1st round pick out of it, we got a young kids to look at, and a bunch of expiring contracts that come off the books. Plus it gets us under the luxury cap treshold and not only do we not pay the tax, we actually get paid because we are under that treshold.

So if people want to look at these trades, take other just as important factors into consideration because no one in their right mind would want to pay a luxury tax for a lottery team. Thats just plain stupid from the managments perspective, not that fans care much about that.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

Is anyone interested in discussing Petrie's recent trades:

1) Webber
2) Peja
3) Bibby
4) whoever else from the core I'm forgetting.

To me the Webber and Bibby trades were absolutely horrible and largely responsible for our current state. The Webber trade was worse because it actually hurt us by talking on Kenny Thomas' contract but the Bibby trade was nearly as bad, as all we did was make the Hawks' team better instead of pleasing ourselves also. Bibby starts for the Hawks yet the guy he was traded for cannot even get on the court for this horrible team.

Anyway I think Petrie's drafting has been very good but his trading for the last number of years has been terrible.

Well, it's only 3 trades you are looking at, but I think they are a mixed bag.

The Webber trade was very bad, especially in hindsight. Petrie's logic about tradeable parts seems reasonable, but he obviously needs to take the blame for being wrong.

The Peja trade was great. Peja was coming off multiple injuries and was about to be a free agent. Although you can make a case in hindsight, that letting Peja walk for nothing might have allowed us to start rebuilding sooner, it's hard to argue with turning a broken down shooter into a younger, better player. At least we were able to turn Artest into a promising young player and a draft pick. That's much better than the Pacers were able to do with Peja.

The Bibby trade is in the middle. We did not come away with any great parts. However, we got rid of salary and started rebuilding. It would be hard to imagine getting much more for Bibby either. He was coming off back to back injury riddled seasons and looking very washed up at the time of the trade. He was a slow footed, small 30 year old PG with quickly declining numbers who shot 40% from the field for 2 straight years. It is doubtful that Petrie was fielding any better offers and holding onto Bibby longer would have been counterproductive. His value would not have gone up and we would not have gotten valuable minutes for the younger players.

 

[SacKings7]

The past is the past, and there will always be people for each trade, and against each trade. The fact of the matter is Petrie pulled a trigger that absolutely had to be pulled. Webber, Peja, and Christie all have done next to nothing since being traded from the Kings. My least favorite package we received was definitely the Webber deal, mainly because of KT. But hey, at least he notched a triple-double against the Lakers for us.

Anyway, they had to be done. Miller is the next to go. Bring on the lottery balls!

 

[SacKings384]

One only needs to look at Portland for what needed to be done. They traded away all their big name players with big contracts for expiring contracts, prospects, and draft picks. We traded our big name players for a crazed madman, two atrocious contracts, a scrub that never lived up to his draft place, and some lousy draft picks.

Portland abandoned the win a few games formula. They shipped off Rasheed, Stoudemire, Randolph, etc. in a fire sale. The young guys were going to get all the playing time. If you weren't apart of the future, you weren't apart of the team. We seem to be holding on to veterans like Moore and Miller as if they are somehow going to lead us to a good record. It comes at the expense of guys like Thompson and Hawes. I hated the re-signing of Beno, as we need a young prospect PG to develop, and Beno has no role in the future. Bottom line is that Petire has tried to have his cake and eat it too. Whether or not that was because of pressure from the Maloof's remains to be seen, but as of late he hasn't done what needs to be done. He's only delaying the inevitable, and judging by that 40 point butt-whooping that day is coming soon, with or without veterans on the team.

 

[Prince_XY]

Petrie is over rated. He got lucky having had Webber and Divac and almost everyone thinks he was a genius.

I think Petrie should be the one who should have been blamed with the Kings not getting over the hump because of his silly personnel moves. It is very unfair the poor coaches and players always got the blame.

He is the architect of this SOFT, SISSY and OFFENSIVE-MINDED team.

I really don't know why the Maloofs still believe on Petrie's philosophy. It will never win a Championship.

 

[exGrizzly]

Thanks for the responses. I guess the Bibby trade could be viewed as successful if it's thought of as a salary dump and a signal that the team is rebuilding (though making Kevin Martin a cornerstone is kind of bleh). Anyway I guess my frustration comes from not valuing the players we had enough, though I must admit at the time, giving away Webber seemed like a good idea, with the unspoken assumption we'd get equal value in return. Oddly enough, Petrie's longtime favorite Peja brought the greatest return in Ron for a short-term rental for Indiana. Oh well, go kids.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

C'mon, Geoff Petrie is no Joe Axelson...

 

[captain bill]

Petrie is over rated. He got lucky having had Webber and Divac and almost everyone thinks he was a genius.

I think Petrie should be the one who should have been blamed with the Kings not getting over the hump because of his silly personnel moves. It is very unfair the poor coaches and players always got the blame.

He is the architect of this SOFT, SISSY and OFFENSIVE-MINDED team.

I really don't know why the Maloofs still believe on Petrie's philosophy. It will never win a Championship.

You call the entire time soft, sissy and only offensive minded (I assume you never watched the games- heard of a guy named Doug Christie?), and yet somehow that's not blaming the players or coaches. Hmmm....explain how that works? Petrie also built a team that was a game away from a championship and another that was an odds-on favorite before an injury took down our best player. He took a perennial doormat to a contender and one of the best teams in the league. Who better to trust in a rebuild than a guy like that?

 

[captain bill]

One only needs to look at Portland for what needed to be done. They traded away all their big name players with big contracts for expiring contracts, prospects, and draft picks. We traded our big name players for a crazed madman, two atrocious contracts, a scrub that never lived up to his draft place, and some lousy draft picks.

Portland abandoned the win a few games formula. They shipped off Rasheed, Stoudemire, Randolph, etc. in a fire sale. The young guys were going to get all the playing time. If you weren't apart of the future, you weren't apart of the team. We seem to be holding on to veterans like Moore and Miller as if they are somehow going to lead us to a good record. It comes at the expense of guys like Thompson and Hawes. I hated the re-signing of Beno, as we need a young prospect PG to develop, and Beno has no role in the future. Bottom line is that Petire has tried to have his cake and eat it too. Whether or not that was because of pressure from the Maloof's remains to be seen, but as of late he hasn't done what needs to be done. He's only delaying the inevitable, and judging by that 40 point butt-whooping that day is coming soon, with or without veterans on the team.

Randolph wasn't traded until 2007. Darius Miles was still on the roster until 2008, and his contract is still an issue for the Blazers, not unlike KT with the Kings. Telfair was on their roster until 2007. Przybilla is still on the team despite Oden being around. Keep in mind that the Blazer's downward spiral began circa 2002. There were a few seasons when they tried (and failed) to win a few games. No team immediately goes to ground and tries to rebuild after tasting playoff success. There is an obligation to see if the team can rebuild with the pieces that its got. Very rarely does this succeed, and usually only when the previous playoff squad contained a young player who can fill the franchise role a la Kobe and Timmy.

The Blazers got very lucky to be given Brandon Roy and Greg Oden, and Lamarcus Aldridge. Literally. Roy was gotten for Ratliff and Telfair. Aldridge was a gift for Tyrus Thomas. They kept veteran talent around because they needed players to put on the court. If you want to compare players on each team you can find some rough analogies:
Moore=Raef Lafrentz
Miller=Joel
Thomas=Miles

Only difference is the Blazers are a few years ahead of us in the process- the Blazers major heartbreaker in the playoffs came in 2000 and have declined since, similar to what happened to us in 2002. Come back in 2010, at which point you will have a more fair comparison to make.

Of course Petrie hasn't fleeced anyone for a while, which was what he used to be known for- maybe it's something to new with veteran GMs being arrogant and thinking they'll always get the better of young ones- exactly how Portland got so much. Who knows. But in any case you are being much to hard on this franchise, which is exactly the mindset that has gotten the Maloofs to run it into the ground.

 

[Prince_XY]

You call the entire time soft, sissy and only offensive minded (I assume you never watched the games- heard of a guy named Doug Christie?), and yet somehow that's not blaming the players or coaches. Hmmm....explain how that works? Petrie also built a team that was a game away from a championship and another that was an odds-on favorite before an injury took down our best player. He took a perennial doormat to a contender and one of the best teams in the league. Who better to trust in a rebuild than a guy like that?

I was referring to the times after the Webber/Divac team.

Hello?

 

[KingsCitizen]

I was referring to the times after the Webber/Divac team.

Hello?

After the Divac/Webber team, the Maloofs were pushing for a defensive team where I believe we got guys named Artest, Salmons, Wells, Williamson(returned) etc, which I believed you think are soft. As for Webber/Divac time aside from Christie, theres Williamson, Funderburke, Wallace and Pollard who were more than ready to dive to the floor and get some bruising.

The reason we are at the bottom now is that this is a part of a team cycle where the wheel starts to turn again. Unfortunate coaching choices and a bit of crippled financial flexibility got us to where we are now. 3-5 yrs. of losing season is pretty acceptable for me. Boston were cellar dwellers for several years, so as the Cavs, the Hawks, Portland and almost any NBA team before rising back to respectability.

 

[pilot305]

Is anyone interested in discussing Petrie's recent trades

Nope. So tired of threads that "live in the past".

 

[tyrant]

yes. the webber and bibby trade were the two that hurt us. webbers hurt us the most.

 

[Superman]

Not only would we be paying the luxury tax, but as a team thats over the luxury tax treshold, we wouldn't be getting the payment that the team under the luxury tax threshold get.

Not to nitpick, but only the teams under the cap get tax money back; not the teams under the tax threshold. Unless I'm mistaken.

 

[NME]

Not to nitpick, but only the teams under the cap get tax money back; not the teams under the tax threshold. Unless I'm mistaken.

No, anyone under the threshold gets the rebate. That's why it's a big deal for teams to go even slightly over the cap. The penalty isn't just doubling the little bit of money you're over, it's disqualification from the few million you would be getting back.

 

[thatguy]

This thread does not deliver.

 

[captain bill]

I was referring to the times after the Webber/Divac team.

Hello?

you are right- after re-reading that post i see your soft sissy no-defense comment was directed at this team in particular. however, the overall post states that petrie is responsible for not getting the kings 'over the hump' and will never win a ring, at which point you dovetail into the soft and sissy remark, so really you can't blame me for thinking the two were interconnected. my point still stands that petrie built some tough hard nosed teams that were more than capable with competing against the class of the league, which is reason enough not to fire him. and, what kingscitizen said.

webber trade was extraordinarily bad, i thought so at the time and still do now- kt's disappearing act only makes it sting a little worse. however, that should not discount a body of work that is otherwise top notch. a gm cannot invent his luck and is forced to make the best of a bad situation.

 

[Superman]

No, anyone under the threshold gets the rebate. That's why it's a big deal for teams to go even slightly over the cap. The penalty isn't just doubling the little bit of money you're over, it's disqualification from the few million you would be getting back.

Can't argue with NME. Looked it up, and, as always, you're right.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q16

Teams under the tax level receive a full share (1/30) of the tax money. (Note that if the league expands, the fraction changes.)
​

My question is, did that change recently, or has it always been that way?

 

[NME]

My question is, did that change recently, or has it always been that way?

Originally, the tax limit for the season was never known until after the fact, and going over meant you only lost a pro-rated amount of the rebate, so going a little over the tax might be a minor penalty. It's been since they started actually determining the tax limit ahead of time, which has been maybe only a few seasons, that going over at all means you lose the whole reimbursement.

 

[Kev.in]

Bibby would've been a lot more affordable if Petrie wasn't so fond of the MLE.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

Bibby would've been a lot more affordable if Petrie wasn't so fond of the MLE.

Bibby would be pointless for us regardless.

 

[Kev.in]

Abdur-Rahim, Moore and Salmons are pointless for us to have too. Then you add the salary of Bibby's replacement (Udrih) and it's actually costing us a lot to have traded him away for almost nothing.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Then you add the salary of Bibby's replacement (Udrih) and it's actually costing us a lot to have traded him away for almost nothing.

Udrih is making 40% of what Bibby is making this year, and was probably closer to (or under) 10% last year (I'm not sure where to get last year's numbers, but we didn't pay Udrih much). But let's assume that Bibby made $12M more than Udrih last year. (Since Bibby was around $14M, that's on the safe side.) We traded Bibby halfway through the year so we saved about $6M. This year he makes $9M more than Udrih. That's $15M, plus this year Bibby is the difference between being over/under the luxury tax threshold. I don't know what the luxury tax payout will be, but it should be a few million more, let's say $2M for the sake of argument. Also, with Bibby instead of Udrih we'd be about $9M over the luxury tax threshold ourselves and we'd be paying dollar-for-dollar, another $9M. Add that up, and we've saved at least $26M over a year and a half by shipping Bibby out, while factoring in Udrih's money through this year.

That $26M is, oddly enough, within $1M of the value remaining on Udrih's contract after this offseason assuming he pick up his player option. You could argue, then, that by shipping out Bibby, we got Beno Udrih's entire MLE contract FOR FREE.

I expect some people will say "that's all he's worth" but it's pretty nice when a starting player's $32M contract is free. Heck, we might even be able to trade him for something good someday.