Glenn
Hall of Famer
Makes me wonder if any decision customarily made by a GM is made only with substantial Maloof input.
Geoff Petrie
- Thread starter Kingzrool
- Start date
Makes me wonder if any decision customarily made by a GM is made only with substantial Maloof input.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Certainly nothing involving coaching (they were the obvious force behind canning Rick, and were hellbent on hiring Whiz before Geoff distracted them with Muss). And quite possibly nothing involving franchise players either -- the Maloofs may or may not have been involved in the Webber mess, and they were certainly the prime movers and shakers in the Artest deal.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
Completely disagree. Petrie is clearly in the top tier when it comes to evaluating talent.
I think that, by the time Artest was here and Adelman wasn't, we were all wondering about that.
OK, but there is more to being a GM than having an eye for talent.
SkinnerBox
Bench
So much of it is based on luck. Geoff was good enough to put together the Kings team that made so many title runs, but often "good" GMing is a product of the situation. Who happens to be available when you have something to dangle, relationships between players and coaches that can't really be predicted, injuries, the lottery, etc.
Chris Webber and Rick Adelman don't get along so well, and the whole trade for Chris Webber ends up being a huge mistake. Instead he was happy here and it all worked out great. But if there is no one out there that has pieces they want to deal for our pieces, Geoff being a good or bad GM can't really change that.
We know he's a good GM, but we can agree that he's not working any miracles right now. However I don't think there is another GM out there that we could just plug in and all of a sudden we're competing for championships again. Nnot even Joe Dumars.
Chris Webber and Rick Adelman don't get along so well, and the whole trade for Chris Webber ends up being a huge mistake. Instead he was happy here and it all worked out great. But if there is no one out there that has pieces they want to deal for our pieces, Geoff being a good or bad GM can't really change that.
We know he's a good GM, but we can agree that he's not working any miracles right now. However I don't think there is another GM out there that we could just plug in and all of a sudden we're competing for championships again. Nnot even Joe Dumars.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I think for that statement to be accurate you have to limit it the way you do for Nellie: little man talent. Guards. What Geoff was himself. His understanding of big men, what makes them tick, how to acquire them, useful skillsets etc. is far less clear.
He isn't "clearly" any such thing. Those aforementioned managers have developed better teams through trades and the draft. Petrie built a good team once, and it's been downhill ever since.
There are at least five, and possibly six, General Managers that have a better record for signing talent. If you're not even in the top twenty percent of your profession, you ain't "top tier."
nbrans
All-Star
The talent evaluation has a lot of merit to it. Geoff has picked far too many players off the dust heap and late in the draft to be a coincidence. Sure, not perfect, but he's been at the top of the league at finding more with less for a very long time. I disagree with Brick that it's just limited to smalls -- he's still the guy who found Pollard, saw the wisdom in investing in Divac and Miller, etc.
I don't think the problem is with the talent evaluation. The problem is with the vision. There was an opportunity with the Webber trade to clear the decks, he took a pass. There was an opportunity to either spend on some youth or just not spend any money at all this past offseason -- he went with Mikki Moore.
And we'll see what happens at the trading deadline.
I used to be a die-hard Petrie supporter, but the Mikki Moore signing and Spencer Hawes drafting... I mean, yikes and yikes. But then he goes and signs Beno, Dahntay Jones looks like a solid end of bencher and John Salmons starts playing like a freaking All-Star. You can't count the man out, but there's a long road to climb.
I don't think the problem is with the talent evaluation. The problem is with the vision. There was an opportunity with the Webber trade to clear the decks, he took a pass. There was an opportunity to either spend on some youth or just not spend any money at all this past offseason -- he went with Mikki Moore.
And we'll see what happens at the trading deadline.
I used to be a die-hard Petrie supporter, but the Mikki Moore signing and Spencer Hawes drafting... I mean, yikes and yikes. But then he goes and signs Beno, Dahntay Jones looks like a solid end of bencher and John Salmons starts playing like a freaking All-Star. You can't count the man out, but there's a long road to climb.
I don't want to rah-rah for Geoff, but this statement is a little unfair. This is the same guy who dealt for a troubled C-Webb because he saw potential in him. He signed Vlade when the majority wanted (if I recall correctly) Matt Geiger. He traded for Brad. I know, these were all a long time ago, but I think he understands what makes a big man tick, understands how to acquire them, and what skills they posses.
His problem with acquiring big men recently has been the makeup of his roster has hamstrung him. Not a lot of legit big guys out there waiting to grad the MLE. Not a lot of GMs aching to trade their legit big men for our pile of scraps. His recent big men (Williams, SAR< Mikki, etc...) have been patches. I don't think Geoff thought any of them were the "answer" when he brought them in. He was caught in the position of beleiving his roster was better than it was, and thinking he needed to make the patch moves to put us over the top.
I think Martin, Garcia, Salmons, Christie, BJax, GWall, Hedo, Peja, etc... show his ability to mine wings, but I think it is unfair to overlook his role in bringing in the three best bigs (Vlade, Webb, Brad) we have had around here in a long time...
Vlade4GM
All-Star
If he lacks the vision necessary build this team back to a contender, all the other stuff is for naught. He's gotten nice little gems here and there, but chances are he's not going to stumble across a franchise player like Webber again. From all the reports we've heard over the last year about Bibby and Artest being available for trade, but yet nothing has happened I think Petrie is either gun shy or the Maloofs are holding him back.
Yep...and even then, people don't want to give Petrie credit for putting together that team.....you'll read stuff like he lucked into players falling in his lap.
Here's a comparison of Dumars and Petrie's picks over the years. Dumars became executive prior to the 2000-01 season so I'm assuming he made the pick in 2000, but I could be wrong.
00 - Det - Cleaves 14....whiff
Sac - Hedo 16
01 - Det - Rodney White 9 Okur 2nd round...nice save of blown pick at 9
Sac - Wallace 25
02 - Det - Prince 23 excellent pick that late
Sac - Dickau...then traded to Atl
03 - Det - Milicic 2...Melo, Bosh and Wade immediately follow...whiff
Sac - no pick
04 - Det - no pick
Sac - KMart 26...excellent pick that late
05 - Det - Maxiell 26 / Amir Johnson 2nd round...solid picks with Johnson potentially great pick
Sac - Cisco 23
06 - Det - no pick
Sac - Douby 19
07 - Det - Stuckey 15
Sac - Hawes 10
Just a comparison of the 2 GM's picks. I like Dumars alot, I think he is upper tier as is Petrie when it comes to GM's. No one will dispute Dumars as being a top tier guy but he did miss mightily with the Milicic pick. There is no excuse for that as he had his choice of players except for the top pick. The Rodney White pick in 2001 was a complete miss. He's found some gems with Prince and Okur.
00 - Det - Cleaves 14....whiff
Sac - Hedo 16
01 - Det - Rodney White 9 Okur 2nd round...nice save of blown pick at 9
Sac - Wallace 25
02 - Det - Prince 23 excellent pick that late
Sac - Dickau...then traded to Atl
03 - Det - Milicic 2...Melo, Bosh and Wade immediately follow...whiff
Sac - no pick
04 - Det - no pick
Sac - KMart 26...excellent pick that late
05 - Det - Maxiell 26 / Amir Johnson 2nd round...solid picks with Johnson potentially great pick
Sac - Cisco 23
06 - Det - no pick
Sac - Douby 19
07 - Det - Stuckey 15
Sac - Hawes 10
Just a comparison of the 2 GM's picks. I like Dumars alot, I think he is upper tier as is Petrie when it comes to GM's. No one will dispute Dumars as being a top tier guy but he did miss mightily with the Milicic pick. There is no excuse for that as he had his choice of players except for the top pick. The Rodney White pick in 2001 was a complete miss. He's found some gems with Prince and Okur.
beb0p
Starter
Yeah, the guy who took Milicic. Also known as the guy who took Prince, the guy who took Okur, the guy who took Maxiell, the guy who signed Billups, the guy who traded for Williamson, the guy who traded for Hamilton, the guy who traded for Ben Wallace, and the guy who traded for Rasheed Wallace... Also known as the guy that put a championship team together in a little more than two years, that continues to be one of the top three title contenders in the league... Yeah, why would anybody think that guy deserves to be considered better than Petire?
You wrote that as if Petrie doesn't have similar accomplishment on his resume.
But what can't be denied is that Petrie is a better draft evaluator than Dumars. For every good draft pick Dumars made, he also made equally bad ones. I have a hard time envisioning Petrie would waste lottery picks on guys like Rodney White and Mateen Cleaves; or pick Delfino over Josh Howard and Milicic over Melo/Bosh/Wade. Petrie, on the other hand, is consistent and rarely make a mistake and has never made one as bad as picking Rodney White or Milicic over the other guys.
Sorry, just don't buy it that Joe Dumars is better than Petrie. That's not to say I don't think Dumars is a good GM, he is. But if Dumars is elite than Petrie has got to be. As for the other guys on your list, I'll give Pritchard pops when his team has actually done something. I like the Blazers' potential but that's all it is, potential. Pritchard may yet be one of the best GMs ever, but it's too soon to label him such.
beb0p
Starter
Dude, that is not fair. Yes, Petrie has been on the job for over a decade, AND during which he tranformed one of the worst run franchises into a title contender. And I don't see how we have no future. We have a great future with several very good young players. How is that no future?
I'll give you that we don't have a good cap situation... now. But going forward we'll be one of the few under-the-cap teams in two yrs and maybe sooner if GP can shed some salary with trades.
Gary
All-Star
^^ Agree. We do have a future, and I believe we are one decent PF away from playoff contention, and two years from getting that PF away from title contention. Our situation isn't that bad. We have a decent bench, we have youth, we have vets, and we have a good coach. Petrie has already shown that he is not the type of GM to "tear it down" and rebuild. He is a rebuilder by getting draft picks in the teens, and trades, or signing FAs.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
He has made mistakes borne out of newbie ignorance, but the source of some of the "negatives" that you mention above are precisely what makes him good:
He has a backbone!
He's not a coach turned politician to save his job type. If he were this touchy-feely, put my finger to the wind type - let's sit down and talk (negotiate) about your pt after coming back from injury type - I don't think he would have gotten near the performance from this team. If his style changes it's due to nuance - e.g. not discussing his thoughts in the open forum of the media - as opposed to actually changing his thoughts because some players or media types might not like it and it's not politic.
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Elektrik
Starter
I agree! I know this road has been travelled before and frankly I am tired of people bashing Kenny's attitude. He's a team guy and people seem to see only what they want. I have seen Kenny many times support his teammates from high fives, towel waives and an occasional chest thump. It's fine that people dont like his contract, or that he doesn't bring to the table what this team needs at power forward. I agree with all that but bashing him about his attitude is not fair to him. He is what he is. Not a real outgoing guy. He's not what we need at pf but we're stuck with his contract. People are looking for any excuse to dump on him because he is not as talented as his inflated contract is. You can blame Geoff for that one but as long as he's a King let's treat him like one. I could go on about another player on this team who is probably a far worse detriment to this team than Kenny Thomas but let's give it a rest for now. This has been a fun season so far and while this team may not have the best talent I appreciate how they all play hard. Even Kenny Thomas!
nbrans
All-Star
I agree to a point -- vision is important, and whether he has dithered or the Maloofs have held him back, the last couple years have been terribly uninspiring. At the same time, no one is going to be right all of the time, and if you combine being-right-more-than-most with a little luck you can have a stretch like we had in the early 00's. There's no silver bullet of a GM, and I'd take him over 90% of the other GMs out there, but it hasn't been a good stretch.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Divac, Webber, Miller, and if memory serves, Grant, Smith, and Funderburke.
Here's what RC Buford of SA has done in the draft....but I think its a little sketchy as to who has the stamp on approval on the picks with Pop also heavily involved. Buford was Head of Scouting before taking over GM duties in 2002, so he's influenced the picks.
2002 - John Salmons 26 - not sure how he got moved from SA
Luis Scola - almost last pick in draft
03 - Leandro Barbosa 28 - again I didn't follow up on the transaction of him
04 - Beno Udrih 28
05 - Ian Mahinmi - late pick in 1st
06 - No 1st
07 - Tiago Splitter late in 1st - another guy that will join league later I guess.
Of note, Tony Parker was picked late in 2001, Ginobili was picked 57th in 1999, and then we know Duncan was the gift for the franchise in 97-98.
A team built from the talent pool from other countries but really its about Tim Duncan.
2002 - John Salmons 26 - not sure how he got moved from SA
Luis Scola - almost last pick in draft
03 - Leandro Barbosa 28 - again I didn't follow up on the transaction of him
04 - Beno Udrih 28
05 - Ian Mahinmi - late pick in 1st
06 - No 1st
07 - Tiago Splitter late in 1st - another guy that will join league later I guess.
Of note, Tony Parker was picked late in 2001, Ginobili was picked 57th in 1999, and then we know Duncan was the gift for the franchise in 97-98.
A team built from the talent pool from other countries but really its about Tim Duncan.
Here is what Jeff Bower of the NO Hornets has done in 2+ years. I'll add some trades and FA signs as there is not alot to go on.
2005 - Chris Paul 4 - money pick...guys ahead are Bogut, M Williams, and Deron Williams, guys behind Paul, would NOT be picked ahead of CP.
2006 - Hilton Armstrong 12 - could be good...its early
Cedric Simmons 15 - already traded...
2007 - Julian Wright 13 - again, its early
2005/06 - trades Magloire for Desmond Mason and 1st rounder in 2006 which turns out to be Cedric Simmons
2006 - signs Bobby Jackson
- steals Tyson Chandler for JR Smith and PJ Brown
2007 - signs Mo Petersen
Somewhere along the way he gives Peja that big, big contract....not quite paying dividends yet.
2005 - Chris Paul 4 - money pick...guys ahead are Bogut, M Williams, and Deron Williams, guys behind Paul, would NOT be picked ahead of CP.
2006 - Hilton Armstrong 12 - could be good...its early
Cedric Simmons 15 - already traded...
2007 - Julian Wright 13 - again, its early
2005/06 - trades Magloire for Desmond Mason and 1st rounder in 2006 which turns out to be Cedric Simmons
2006 - signs Bobby Jackson
- steals Tyson Chandler for JR Smith and PJ Brown
2007 - signs Mo Petersen
Somewhere along the way he gives Peja that big, big contract....not quite paying dividends yet.
kingsfan101
Starter
I am a huge Petrie fan, but even I have to agree with the above, particularly, in the light of last few years.
That said, to a certain extent at least, luck can be blamed. We are all familiar with the multiple heart breaks we suffered. Had things worked slightly differently, we might have been discussing a totally different legacy right now. Also, the team probably wouldn't have imploded so quickly.
Compare our luck with say of Detroit (closest competition from the list above, since they were also built primarily with trades and low draft picks). We became elite, when Lakers were at their peak, suffered multiple injuries in different years and were always playing in the brutally tough West.
Detroit on the other hand, became elite when the best teams in the West were a notch below the dominating Lakers, enjoyed extraordinary luck in terms of health of main players, and had the luxury of playing in the East, where the path to conference finals, NBA finals was much easier. To top it all, they lucked into Rasheed Wallace, which suddenly turned them from a good team to an elite team. Of course Dumars gets credit for arranging a deal while keeping his core intact, but such one-sided deals usually happen only when the stars are very favourably aligned.
One year that they won the title, they faced a dysfunctional Lakers team with an injured Karl Malone. Again, the Lakers were still a formidable team that year, and I don't want to belittle their achievements. However, just as we wonder what could have happened had Chris not gone down against Mavs, one has to wonder if Detroit would have won so easily if Malone was fit.
Coming back to Geoff, I agree with nbrans post that the main problem is with his vision. He has shown an amazing reluctance to break up the team and rebuild. Instead of adding MLE level contracts each year, he should have tried to clean up the salaries and rebuild.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
You are rather mistaken if you think that constitutes some sort of impresive record vis a vis bigs over a dozen years. Its actually the beginnings of an indictment. Throw in Reef, Songaila, KT, Moore etc. and the pattern is clear. Geoff doesn't see "bigs" at all. He sees littles. Guards. Some guards are 6'0" tall. Other guards are 7'0" tall. But they are all guards and should all do the things guards do, because, you know, that's won I mean at least, um, well, ok its never actually won anything. Which is cute and overstated, but only a little. Nobody, with the possible exception of Jerry Reynolds, actually thinks shotblocker/rebounders are irrelevant, but its all about the premium you put on those skills and what you will sacrifice to get them. from anything the record shows Geoff looks for pretty little offensive players, and if they can do big man things, great. An astute big man evaluator comes at it from the other direction.
P.S. As an aside, the Vlade thing is being repeatedly overstated. Other than vis a vis Matt Geiger, the other big on the market that summer, saying that singing Vlade is an indication of much, good or bad, is kind of like saying that Otis Smith is a brilliant SF evaluator for signing Rashard Lewis. Its the free agent market. You sign the biggest FA at his position in a summer, its not liek you have some huge number of choices.
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nbrans
All-Star
That's a good point about Detroit's peak vs. our peak. I'd say that the peak Kings team would have beaten the pants off of Detroit's title team. Just wasn't our year. Just because he has a ring doesn't mean Dumars is default the better GM.
nbrans
All-Star
I don't agree with this. It was a gutsy move -- Vlade was entering his 30s and Petrie threw a lot of money at him. It worked out really well, but it equally could have been a bust. It wasn't some kind of no-brainer, nor was drafting a troubled young PG who set the tone. Trading for a then-troubled PF who had worn out his welcome in two cities also wasn't the no-brainer it seems today. He deserves credit for these things. It doesn't buy him an eternity of teflon, but these still were some seriously great moves.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
You can easily make an argument for Petrie being in the top 5 in talent evaluation. Like I said, say what you want about the direction of the team, how he's not rebuilding the right way, etc etc. But you have to give him props because he's one of the best at finding undervalued talent. Again, top 5 pretty easily.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I would highlight this. Debates about Geoff's talent evaluation are what they are, but it really doesn't matter wihtout the vision thing. It is Geoff's failure to plan and antitipate (or in recent years even act) that is the far greater problem than the results when he does act. Minus the will, minus the strategy, the greatest talent evaluator in the world is never going to accomplish anything much.
A sampling of well defined Geoff traits of recent vintage:
1) does not make moves on draft day. Takes his draft pick and goes home.
2) does not trade for young undeveloped guys. Prefers the safety of established vets.
3) drafts small -- the only proviso here being that him drafting small may or may not be related to his lack of planning since he rarely puts himself in position to draft a good big
4) opportunist -- the great majority of his moves, good and bad, in recent years have been moves of opportuinity rather than long temr planning. Things that suddenly opened up, and he said, hey, why not. Moves that fall under this rubrick include Reef (signed wiht another team, then abruptly cut loose) Artest (imploded on former team and was suddenly on market); Salmons (singed wiht another team, then God told him to back out); Beno (traded for by another team, then waived); and Jones (out on the free agent market a month into the season). Extended you could even apply that to the late draft picks, since obviously every single team drafting ahead of us coould have taken our guy. But that can be said about anyone in that position who does not move up aggressively.
5) Uses the MLE every year in active pursuit of low playoff positioning.
Not one of those traits bespeaks vision or planning or outside awareness. They are reactive. Patching and attempting to get lucky. Hopefully that guy we like will fall to us wherever we are drafting (which is just wherever we are drafting because we make no efforts to control that). Hopefully somebody will fall out of favor and hit the market.
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