ESPN: Artest Requesting Trade, Representing Himself

[bajaden]

I thought it was a worthwhile risk at the time. But there was always a good chance of it not working. Which it did not. So, *shrug*. The trade was for a better, and younger (25 at the time) player who could be an impact defender. The risk was huge, but its the sort of risk that you could understandably take in a rebuild. You get more talent in return, you get a younger player in return. Thought it was a worthwhile risk to take when we took it. There was method to our madness, as opposed to something like the Webber abomination which was just fire the GM pee poor 0% chance of this EVER working out awful.

Bricky, your going to have to learn to say what you think. Quite holding back for goodness sake. It will give you high blood pressure.

 

[ParniValjak]

Perhaps, but given the way these last two years have gone I'm not entirely convinced that a full rebuild would have occurred anyway.

The interesting thing to me, though, is that the argument is that it was a bad trade because Artest helped the team win too much (as opposed to his behavior being the reason the trade was not worth it).

This argument makes little sense. It's just too easy to say in hindsight that something that didn't happen wasn't ever going to happen.

Its not in hindsight for many of us. Many of us said at the time when it was rumoured that Pedja for Artest trade was going to happen that it would end the way its ending.

People make the mistake of thinking that Artest would change in the new environment. He will NEVER change. Leopards don't change their spots. Artest will never improve a franchise, he will always drag it down with his egoistic immaturity and "me first" attitude. He is a good player but as an overall package he falls WAY short of where HE believes he is. He is good but he is no where near as good as he thinks he is.

 

[uolj]

Its not in hindsight for many of us. Many of us said at the time when it was rumoured that Pedja for Artest trade was going to happen that it would end the way its ending.

People make the mistake of thinking that Artest would change in the new environment. He will NEVER change. Leopards don't change their spots. Artest will never improve a franchise, he will always drag it down with his egoistic immaturity and "me first" attitude. He is a good player but as an overall package he falls WAY short of where HE believes he is. He is good but he is no where near as good as he thinks he is.

You're talking about the distractions, right? The hindsight comment was actually about Artest having no chance of helping the Kings become contenders.

My point was that we all knew that the distractions were likely and that he'd likely end up wearing out his welcome and get traded. That is certainly not a surprise.

To say Artest will never improve a franchise is flat out wrong. He improved the Kings when he arrived. They didn't follow up very well and it went downhill, but the trading for Artest should never have been about finding a long term corner stone. It was about getting a player that could help in the short term and then crossing your fingers that what happened after that was very good instead of very bad. It turned out to be neither, so the risk was worth it.

 

[ParniValjak]

You're talking about the distractions, right? The hindsight comment was actually about Artest having no chance of helping the Kings become contenders.

My point was that we all knew that the distractions were likely and that he'd likely end up wearing out his welcome and get traded. That is certainly not a surprise.

To say Artest will never improve a franchise is flat out wrong. He improved the Kings when he arrived. They didn't follow up very well and it went downhill, but the trading for Artest should never have been about finding a long term corner stone. It was about getting a player that could help in the short term and then crossing your fingers that what happened after that was very good instead of very bad. It turned out to be neither, so the risk was worth it.

Absolute rubbish!

Artest can nver improve a franchise. He could never improve us because he is just NOT a fanchise player. Never has been and never will be. He can be a very good piece that wcan contribute (for a short time) as a 2nd option but sooner or later his ego will get the better off him and he will destroy that franshice because there is someone else on that team that is thought of as the franchise player.

Look what he did to Indiana. He absolutly single handedly destroyed that franchise from a genuine contender to a laughing stock. He was always going to give us a boost in the short term but in the long run, he was always going to do what he is doing now.

He is a proven cancer always has been and always will be and the teams will continue to give him a chance in the hope of turning him around and he will let them down time and time again. The sooner he becomes someone else's problem the better it is for us.

 

[Elektrik]

....it was only a matter of time. KaBoom!!

 

[Vlade4GM]

Who said it can't be both? For it to be a bad trade, he would have to have done damage to the team. I guess being a headache does some PR damage, but in my opinion not that much. Helping the team be mediocre might also have been some damage, but again I don't think the Kings would have been winning the lottery if the trade didn't go through. So basically we have minor damage versus the potential for him to help the team grow into a contender.

You apparently didn't think that was possible with Adelman, Bibby, Martin, Wells, Miller and Artest. Ok. I think even if there was a small chance it was worth it to see if that could happen when compared to the minor damage that has been caused. It would have even been more worth it if they had done the trade earlier.

(And this has nothing to do with the Spurs series for me at least. I didn't think the Kings were ever close to winning that.)

"The interesting thing to me, though, is that the argument is that it was a bad trade because Artest helped the team win too much (as opposed to his behavior being the reason the trade was not worth it)."

To me that implies that people are saying it's either one or the other or it can only be one or the other.

Well of course it's all subjective on one's opinion of that team's ability, I think it wouldn't have won anything important even assuming everyone was on the court healthy together so that's why I think it was a waste of a move. So the team getting it into their head that they could and should compete was disastrous, I guess you could say the org. doesn't decide to rebuild either way, but I don't think this org. is that stubborn. I just think that there's a big difference in impressions from finishing out of the playoffs and being competitive against the spurs. I don't think the Maloofs get all giddy if they trade Peja for smaller pieces or just like him expire and we finish out of the playoffs.

 

[Elektrik]

I tend to agree with this assessment and I think we're going to keep guessing right up until Petrie pulls the trigger on whatever deal he feels is best for the organization. I do not think, however, that this is going to drag out much longer.

The longer it goes the worse it becomes for the organization, and the same thing could have been said a year ago. Also, as it goes longer I think the more desperate we become. Everyone knows we are trying to unload him and I think everyone is holding back until we just cant stand it a moment longer and he becomes addition by substraction.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I thought it was a worthwhile risk at the time. But there was always a good chance of it not working. Which it did not. So, *shrug*. The trade was for a better, and younger (25 at the time) player who could be an impact defender. The risk was huge, but its the sort of risk that you could understandably take in a rebuild. You get more talent in return, you get a younger player in return. Thought it was a worthwhile risk to take when we took it. There was method to our madness, as opposed to something like the Webber abomination which was just fire the GM pee poor 0% chance of this EVER working out awful.

What I don't get is that why the hell do you let Adelman go if you're going to take on Artest? I think that killed all chance of it ever working out.

 

[sactownfan]

as lame as its all ending with artest its all gonna be worth it if we pawn of Kenny Thomas with him!

Im sick and tired of Artest and his crazy antics but I wanted Peja traded for him when it happened... I was also fed up with Peja and his inability to perform when it counted... I look at it like poth Peja and Artest were underpaid, both good players, and most important to remember is that both weren't going to be a part of our next contending team... and so... oh well... its all a wash to me at this point...

But if we can rid ourselves of Kenny Thomas its all good!

however if we end up making a bad trade or just letting him walk for nothing i'd be bummed...

 

[Vlade4GM]

Hindsight is a 100% as they say, but I agree with you. The series with the Spurs was nothing more than a ripple in the large pond of the NBA. No one will remember 5 yrs from now. Maybe less.

Its true that Peja left and Artest made a big enough impact to jump start the team into the playoffs. Who's to say that another player couldn't have done the same time. Its all subjective and there is no sure answer. One thing is certain. Peja needed a change of scenery. He needed to go, and I must add that he was one of my favorite players. What if, we had traded him for a return of Hedo. How would have that worked out?

My point is, that you can what if yourself to death, and never get an answer. One thing is certain. The trade was made with the idea that the Kings could still contend, and that was the mistake. I felt so then, but I also felt that I could be wrong. The Kings could have traded for younger talent and possible future picks. In my opinion they made a mistake. But I wasn't as sure then as I'am now, so it was an easy mistake to make.

I understand the idea behind it and it was not without merit, but from my perspective I thought our window was closed and Artest is too unreliable. So I thought we should've traded Peja for the best rebuilding package possible or just let him expire, take the lotto pick and start shopping the vets. It was just too much of a long shot.

I probably have an extreme POV, I see that. It's just I believe you should have a core that has that championship potential (whether now or down the line) or be doing the things necessary to build for one in the future. The best organizations have that mindset IMO, they realize it's over and they sell while their vets are still highly thought of around the league.

 

[Carpe diem]

People make the mistake of thinking that Artest would change in the new environment. He will NEVER change. Leopards don't change their spots. Artest will never improve a franchise, he will always drag it down with his egoistic immaturity and "me first" attitude. He is a good player but as an overall package he falls WAY short of where HE believes he is. He is good but he is no where near as good as he thinks he is.

How quickly people forget when Artest dragged the King's asses to the playoffs two seasons ago.

 

[Carpe diem]

The recent quote from one of the Maloofs (Joe, I think) was that the Kings will make a trade if they feel it betters the team whether it's with the Lakers or not. So there's no reason to try to push such a sentiment onto the front office - they've already denied it exists.

In that same quote he referred to the Lakers as 'rivals'. Not really buying what you are saying. Maloofs have been hesistant to deal with the Lakers in the past couple of seasons, it's no different now.

As far as Odom goes, reports have it that the Lakers are reluctant to include Odom, not that the Kings are trying to hold out for more than that. If you look at the salaries, we'd have to include something besides Artest under the salary cap - KT or Shareef work, and we're not likely to bleed any "talent" to dump Artest, especially when we're receiving an expiring player in return who we're not incredibly likely to resign.

The Lakers have been shopping Odom for 3 years now. They are absolutely willing to include Odom but theres no way Buss is going to take that albatross of contract back to make it work. Nor will any other sane front office.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

Ahh, the greater fool theory. We were fools then, so now we're looking for another fool. Is that it? Last year the only team that wanted to give us anything was Denver, and that was the whey. So why all the hope now that we're going to get cream now? What has changed?

hes in his final year. he is still a great talent when he has his head on straight. he will be playing his heart out for a new contract.

 

[Kingfanpaul]

Artest said his legacy with the kings was ruined because we did not bring back adelman and bonzi........PUUUUUUUHLEEZ


RIIIIIIIIIGHT......

 

[Vlade4GM]

In that same quote he referred to the Lakers as 'rivals'. Not really buying what you are saying. Maloofs have been hesistant to deal with the Lakers in the past couple of seasons, it's no different now.



The Lakers have been shopping Odom for 3 years now. They are absolutely willing to include Odom but theres no way Buss is going to take that albatross of contract back to make it work. Nor will any other sane front office.

The lakers have not been shopping Odom, they've been willing to trade him, but they have not been pushing him on anyone. The only deals I can recall the lakers were willing to give up Odom is for KG and Jermaine O'Neal. Hardly being shopped rather than just going after all-star 4's.

 

[Carpe diem]

The lakers have not been shopping Odom, they've been willing to trade him, but they have not been pushing him on anyone. The only deals I can recall the lakers were willing to give up Odom is for KG and Jermaine O'Neal. Hardly being shopped rather than just going after all-star 4's.

Yes they have been shopping him. They were very willing to give him up for JO, just not Bynum. Pacers didn't want Odom. Lakers wanted boozer, Utah didn't want Odom. Lakers offered Odom for Artest when he was in Indiana, Indiana didn't want his contract.

Odom was also in the original offer for Gasol/Miller, but the Grizz didn't want to take that kind of contract back.

Odom has been on the market for quite awhile now.

 

[ParniValjak]

How quickly people forget when Artest dragged the King's asses to the playoffs two seasons ago.

Oh I didn't forget but that was for a couple of months after he was traded to us. What happened after that?!

You see players have a habit of playing really well when they get traded. They play with chip on their shoulder and temporarily take their game to another level. Hell Kenny Thomas was a double double guy and occasional triple double threat for a little while there when we got him. Even Brian Skinner was playing at a VERY high level. Point is, the initial boost these traded guys give you wears off pretty quickly afterwards.

 

[Kingsgirl4]

I tend to agree with this assessment and I think we're going to keep guessing right up until Petrie pulls the trigger on whatever deal he feels is best for the organization. I do not think, however, that this is going to drag out much longer.

Let's hope that something happens soon. This has been dragging on far too long!

 

[bajaden]

The longer it goes the worse it becomes for the organization, and the same thing could have been said a year ago. Also, as it goes longer I think the more desperate we become. Everyone knows we are trying to unload him and I think everyone is holding back until we just cant stand it a moment longer and he becomes addition by substraction.

Hey! Semper Fi.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Let's hope that something happens soon. This has been dragging on far too long!

I'm not sure who/what's available...if we were going to do a NY trade, it probably would have been done long ago, and if we were going to do an LA trade, THAT would have been done awhile ago too...teams arent offering much, that's what I'm getting, just an observation...and I doubt they will be offering much more THIS year, either. I think we're stuck, to tell you the truth. It just sucks that this situation has turned out the way it has, I was really hoping for the harmony to build, he had a great season last year, and the team was coming around...but you dont mortgage your franchise if you're unsure of the outcome.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Artest said his legacy with the kings was ruined because we did not bring back adelman and bonzi........PUUUUUUUHLEEZ


RIIIIIIIIIGHT......

I think alot of people's legacies were ruined with one entire season under Eric Musselman...who knows what might have been...I say Ron/Bill held up pretty well under the circumstances, as did the rest of the team, for that matter. Hiring Muss was a HUGE mistake, and it took an entire year to get 1/2 our sanity back...and 1000's of hours of therapy, too. Kudos to Reggie for being a big part of that! As far as I'm concerned, Ron...other than a couple of minor incidents, has been fine, considering everything he's had to deal with...am I saying that Ron is totally in the right in this?? No, but I just think if you're going to look at the 'what' part of the dysfuntion we had, alot of it falls on the Maloofs for hring 'their guy' Muss.

 

[Bricklayer]

Artest said his legacy with the kings was ruined because we did not bring back adelman and bonzi........PUUUUUUUHLEEZ


RIIIIIIIIIGHT......

I would agree with Ron on that point...well part of it.

The chance, the only real chance, for there to have been a Ron Artest era of success in Sacto was for us to bring back the coach who got so much out of him, and the player who was his bump and thump counterpart. My stance on that has not changed since that summer -- we had something going there. A real personality, and a real problem pairing (in more ways than one) with Ron and Bonzi beating the hell out of opposing swingmen. Everything since then has just been random patches, mismatched pieces, and overmatched coaches.

Now as for Ron's "legacy"...no, he has done a perfectly fine job of screwing that up himself in the subsequent years.

 

[NewMonkey]

There was method to our madness, as opposed to something like the Webber abomination which was just fire the GM pee poor 0% chance of this EVER working out awful.

We've had this discussion before, but I believe the thinking at the time was that Webber's career could end any day, and the Kings would get nothing for him. The deal was a bet against Webber staying healthy - a bet Petrie lost. Webber was never healthy again, but he was productive for a few years. Webber just as easily could have blown his knee out a month later, Kenny Thomas might not have turned into Chris Dudley and the deal would have been OK. That's not what happened, so I agree that the deal turned out extremely poorly for the Kings, but I don't agree that it had 0% chance of working out.

 

[Kingsgirl4]

I'm not sure who/what's available...if we were going to do a NY trade, it probably would have been done long ago, and if we were going to do an LA trade, THAT would have been done awhile ago too...teams arent offering much, that's what I'm getting, just an observation...and I doubt they will be offering much more THIS year, either. I think we're stuck, to tell you the truth. It just sucks that this situation has turned out the way it has, I was really hoping for the harmony to build, he had a great season last year, and the team was coming around...but you dont mortgage your franchise if you're unsure of the outcome.

I tend to agree with you. I think other teams won't make the offer cause they don't want to deal with the drama. I was also hoping for us to grow as a team but I think it is time to let him go. It is sad, he is a talented guy but he just can't keep the puzzle that is his brain together.

 

[Kingfanpaul]

I would agree with Ron on that point...well part of it.

The chance, the only real chance, for there to have been a Ron Artest era of success in Sacto was for us to bring back the coach who got so much out of him, and the player who was his bump and thump counterpart. My stance on that has not changed since that summer -- we had something going there. A real personality, and a real problem pairing (in more ways than one) with Ron and Bonzi beating the hell out of opposing swingmen. Everything since then has just been random patches, mismatched pieces, and overmatched coaches.

Now as for Ron's "legacy"...no, he has done a perfectly fine job of screwing that up himself in the subsequent years.

I 100% agree with what you are saying.

 

[NME]

We've had this discussion before, but I believe the thinking at the time was that Webber's career could end any day, and the Kings would get nothing for him. The deal was a bet against Webber staying healthy - a bet Petrie lost. Webber was never healthy again, but he was productive for a few years. Webber just as easily could have blown his knee out a month later, Kenny Thomas might not have turned into Chris Dudley and the deal would have been OK. That's not what happened, so I agree that the deal turned out extremely poorly for the Kings, but I don't agree that it had 0% chance of working out.

Sometimes nothing is better than something you don't want. Even if we'd kept Webber and his knee exploded the day after the trade deadline, at least we'd be free and clear of his salary today.

 

[NewMonkey]

Sometimes nothing is better than something you don't want. Even if we'd kept Webber and his knee exploded the day after the trade deadline, at least we'd be free and clear of his salary today.

Agreed, but Kenny did give us 14.5 points and almost 9 rebounds that year and had yet to turn 28. Most people didn't think 14 and 9 would be the time spent resting on each buttcheek three years later.

Edit - and Webber gave Philly an extremely unproductive 15 and 8 after the trade. I'm not saying it was a good trade, because it was obviously horrible. I am saying that hindsight is 20/20, and the trade could have been reasonable if Kenny Thomas had not gotten worse or, FSM forbid, actually improved his game.

 

[Bricklayer]

Agreed, but Kenny did give us 14.5 points and almost 9 rebounds that year and had yet to turn 28. Most people didn't think 14 and 9 would be the time spent resting on each buttcheek three years later.

Edit - and Webber gave Philly an extremely unproductive 15 and 8 after the trade. I'm not saying it was a good trade, because it was obviously horrible. I am saying that hindsight is 20/20, and the trade could have been reasonable if Kenny Thomas had not gotten worse or, FSM forbid, actually improved his game.

No it couldn't have. And I of course have the been-saying-so-since-the- asinine-moment-that-trade-was-announced chops to say that.

No it couldn't have.

It was an absolute classically bad NBA trade. Absolute classic. The major player (off of the 5th winningest team in the league at the time even!) for veteran spare parts with long term deals (longer even than the major player) trade is the absolute prototype for what you do not do. Like ever. No matter who the players involved are. When the major player happens to also be the best player in franchise history and the final piece in a charisma-sapping soulectomy you have just given your team, it was just embarrassing. More embarrassing still to listen to the swine try to sell it on air and in print. It was a horrifically wrongheaded and delusional move. This whole "proven" wrong thing is a misnomer -- there was nothing to "prove". It was 100% wrong from the start. So wrong in fact that even with Webb's knee steadily deteriorating and forcing retirement, it STILL looks godawful. And trying to pin the godawfulness of it on Kenny Thomas, as if any possible performance by Kenny freaking midget PF Thomas could ever possibly justify it, is just missing the point. There was absolutely no scenario where that trade works.

 

[hrdboild]

But...Ron is right, isn't he? Letting Adelman go was a huge mistake. He's not the first one to say think it or the first one to say it. He didn't say it very diplomatically, but he's right. The first season he was in Sacramento the Kings went to the playoffs and the team around him has gotten progressively worse ever since. Reggie Theus was a noticeable improvement over Musselman, but he was still clearly a rookie coach and unprepared for the task of leading a team full-time. Maybe in 5 years Reggie will be ready but that's 5 years of mediocrity. Any player needs a great coach to get the best out of them, not just Ron Artest. The fact that he recognizes that doesn't make him an egotistical blow hard.

But whatever, that's just my opinion. I think you've clearly all gone nuts over this months ago so there's no point trying to talk sense now.

 

[Section 101]

It's pretty simple to me.

It's Artest/KT for Odom/Ariza. If something better comes along take it. If it doesn't happen before the season then wait it out. Artest has 1 choice and that's to play his butt off for a new contract. If a deal isn't made by the deadline then either a) continue to play him if we are in the playoff race or b) if he's causing any problems put him on the inactive list the rest of the year and tell him to go home. Then they can either let him walk or do a sign and trade if it makes sense for the Kings. We've gone this far dealing with him, might as well see it through.