ESPN: Artest Requesting Trade, Representing Himself

Any player needs a great coach to get the best out of them, not just Ron Artest. The fact that he recognizes that doesn't make him an egotistical blow hard.

Reggie Theus was a noticeable improvement over Musselman, but he was still clearly a rookie coach and unprepared for the task of leading a team full-time. Maybe in 5 years Reggie will be ready but that's 5 years of mediocrity.
The thing I would ask is this: What is "the best" of Ron Artest??

Have we seen it? Have we yet to see it?

Is Mike Brown a great coach? Lebron has played pretty well.

As for Reggie being a rookie, well:
How about Byron Scotts years in New Jersey? He was a young rookie coach just like Reggie and he got his team to the finals twice.

Other young coaches who dominated in recent years:
Mike D'antoni
Rick Carlisle
Avery Johnson
Stan Van Gundy

Maybe every rookie coach needs a nash, dirk, and shaq/// NOT a Artest.
 
It's pretty simple to me.

It's Artest/KT for Odom/Ariza. If something better comes along take it. If it doesn't happen before the season then wait it out. Artest has 1 choice and that's to play his butt off for a new contract. If a deal isn't made by the deadline then either a) continue to play him if we are in the playoff race or b) if he's causing any problems put him on the inactive list the rest of the year and tell him to go home. Then they can either let him walk or do a sign and trade if it makes sense for the Kings. We've gone this far dealing with him, might as well see it through.
I love the Odom/Ariza, for Artest/KT. I think that's a deal that is beneficial for both teams. Artest on his best behavior for one year may put the Lakers over the hump. The Kings get two contracts that expire at the end of the 08-09 season, and rid themselves of a malcontent.
 
Artest is a lunatic... he didn't even tell his agent he had decided to represent himself.

While many of Artest's sentiments qualify as elaboration on previous statements, he indicated that he will be representing himself as an agent. That was news to his actual agent, Mark Stevens, who said on Sunday night that he still represents Artest.
"I haven't heard anything about that," Stevens said by phone. "I don't know anything about it."
Asked about his reaction if it proved to be true, he said, "I don't respond to 'ifs.'"
http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/sports/kings/
 
why am I the only one to see this as our greatest chance to get revenge on the hated lakers? We'd basically be bombing their team.
 
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Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
The thing I would ask is this: What is "the best" of Ron Artest??

Have we seen it? Have we yet to see it?

Is Mike Brown a great coach? Lebron has played pretty well.

As for Reggie being a rookie, well:
How about Byron Scotts years in New Jersey? He was a young rookie coach just like Reggie and he got his team to the finals twice.

Other young coaches who dominated in recent years:
Mike D'antoni
Rick Carlisle
Avery Johnson
Stan Van Gundy

Maybe every rookie coach needs a nash, dirk, and shaq/// NOT a Artest.

A) sure, yes, but b) or maybe also that not all rookie coaches are created equal, and in particular those that have served long interneships as an actual NBA assistant, while being groomed for the job, have a betetr shot than ooutsiders suddenly thrust into the role.
 
While we're rehashing the Webber trade for the bazillionth time, I will say that especially in retrospect the Webber trade and Artest trade made for a really especially bad stew.

I've always maintained that the Webber trade was probably the best deal that could have happened at the time, and it presented an opportunity for rebuilding, notwithstanding KT's obviously bad contract that we are obviously still dealing with, but which still represents a relatively small portion of the cap. But it wasn't followed up with good decisions that could have set the table for a quicker rebuild.

And while I, like many people, was in favor of it at the time, the Artest trade was part of those moves that staved off a rebuild that could have capitzlied on that opportunity when Corliss' and Skinner's contracts expired. To be sure, there were some bad breaks. Cuttino Mobley walked to the Clippers, which was a pretty big blow considering the rumors of a possible Nene S&T with Denver at the time. Bonzi later on decided to be a complete idiot and we lost him for nothing too.

But around the time of the Artest trade the writing was really truly on the wall that Bibby, Peja and Miller were seriously on the decline and it was finally time to completely blow things up. But instead of letting Peja expire and try and build some cap room, the Artest trade put the team back into try-and-win now mode, and with the accompanying fleeting success and subsequent free agent signings it delayed things yet another couple of years. I was absolutely in favor of the Artest trade because of the opportunity it presented -- espeically coming after the insanely good start to the season Artest had before the brawl, he was young and one of the best two way players in the league. While everyone knew that he would be an insane person off the court, we had no way of knowing that insanely good start had convinced Artest that he was now Kobe Bryant and that he would subsequently kill any semblance of offensive chemistry. So instead of blowing things up, well, here we are. Yay.

You can chalk this all up to a rudderless front office or delusional owners or whatever else you want, and there's probably a little bit of truth to all of that. But the team had an opportunity with the Webber trade, and it was scuttled by everything that happened afterwards, Artest trade, unfortunately, included.
 
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I just heard Artest say he didn't really fire his agent. That there cool. he was just trying to call him out a bit publically, Just like he would get called out if he didn't play as well as he should have. But that him and his agent speak every day and he is going to keep him as an agent.
 
Comon guys... he's just been messin with the media.. he's not representing himself, never fired his agent and hasn't changed his name. He does however want the Kings to ~ show him the money. Like quick.
 
I just heard Artest say he didn't really fire his agent. That there cool. he was just trying to call him out a bit publically, Just like he would get called out if he didn't play as well as he should have. But that him and his agent speak every day and he is going to keep him as an agent.
round and round we go......when will it end????? Please sooner than later.
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
so what do you guys really want for artest? do you want a player that will get the kings to the playoffs or capspace?

the same artest/thomas combo can be traded for other expiring contracts like wally szczerbiak... that could put the cavs over the top pairing lebron and artest... though i dont know about the ben wallace part... i doubt they have any beef. the brawl was with the fans not ben.

there arent any star players available that we could trade artest for... maybe an up and comer but even thats debateable....
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
so what do you guys really want for artest? do you want a player that will get the kings to the playoffs or capspace?

the same artest/thomas combo can be traded for other expiring contracts like wally szczerbiak... that could put the cavs over the top pairing lebron and artest... though i dont know about the ben wallace part... i doubt they have any beef. the brawl was with the fans not ben.

there arent any star players available that we could trade artest for... maybe an up and comer but even thats debateable....

Remember, Ron himself is "capspace" after this season, just not cpaspace we can afford to keep. So there is no point in going backward and actually LOSING that capspace, unless it be for a talented YOUNG player. Otherwise I'm thinking any and all deals are for matching endeing contracts, and then picks or marginal young guys. For a talented oyung guy, obviously you take on the salary, but who would give us one of them for Ron. Maybe Nene in Denver for Ron + Kenny. But they laready passed on ron once, and George Karl has made it clear he does not want him. Not to mention the contract danger Nene represents given his incessant helath issues. Anyway...
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
thats what i was thinking... what players are available? i doubt that the hawks want to deal josh smith, the have no need for artest... maybe a 3 way deal with the clippers and knicks...

knicks get artest
clippers get randolph
kings get capspace and filler from the clippers...
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
I understand the idea behind it and it was not without merit, but from my perspective I thought our window was closed and Artest is too unreliable. So I thought we should've traded Peja for the best rebuilding package possible or just let him expire, take the lotto pick and start shopping the vets. It was just too much of a long shot.

I probably have an extreme POV, I see that. It's just I believe you should have a core that has that championship potential (whether now or down the line) or be doing the things necessary to build for one in the future. The best organizations have that mindset IMO, they realize it's over and they sell while their vets are still highly thought of around the league.
I'm not sure, but I think we just agreed with one another. As I have said before. My favorite GM is Bill Walsh, and he said its better to trade a player one year too early than one year too late.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. Factorial

The recent quote from one of the Maloofs (Joe, I think) was that the Kings will make a trade if they feel it betters the team whether it's with the Lakers or not. So there's no reason to try to push such a sentiment onto the front office - they've already denied it exists.

In that same quote he referred to the Lakers as 'rivals'. Not really buying what you are saying. Maloofs have been hesistant to deal with the Lakers in the past couple of seasons, it's no different now.

It wasn't Capt. Factorial saying it. He was quoting Joe Maloof. So go argue with Joe as to whether he meant it or not.
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
i doubt that the maloofs care if they trade with the lakers... werent they going to possibly trade bibby to the lakers last season?
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
No it couldn't have. And I of course have the been-saying-so-since-the- asinine-moment-that-trade-was-announced chops to say that.

No it couldn't have.

It was an absolute classically bad NBA trade. Absolute classic. The major player (off of the 5th winningest team in the league at the time even!) for veteran spare parts with long term deals (longer even than the major player) trade is the absolute prototype for what you do not do. Like ever. No matter who the players involved are. When the major player happens to also be the best player in franchise history and the final piece in a charisma-sapping soulectomy you have just given your team, it was just embarrassing. More embarrassing still to listen to the swine try to sell it on air and in print. It was a horrifically wrongheaded and delusional move. This whole "proven" wrong thing is a misnomer -- there was nothing to "prove". It was 100% wrong from the start. So wrong in fact that even with Webb's knee steadily deteriorating and forcing retirement, it STILL looks godawful. And trying to pin the godawfulness of it on Kenny Thomas, as if any possible performance by Kenny freaking midget PF Thomas could ever possibly justify it, is just missing the point. There was absolutely no scenario where that trade works.
Lets look at the facts Bricky. And lets try and do it without emotion, because its obvious to me that your very emotional about this subject. I know you don't like to be contradicted. Especially when your so dead sure your right.

Here are the facts as I see them. It was obvious to me, and I'm sure to you also, that Webber was never going to be the player he once was. The type of surgery he had, can be sucessfull at a pretty high percentage when the player is young. I certainly hope so for Portland's sake. But with older players, the sucess rate drops dramaticaly. So the Kings were looking at a situation where they're star player, with a huge contract, probably wasn't going to be able to meet the expectations that came with that contract.

So now what do you do? You have two choices as I see it. One is live with the contract and make the best of it until maybe you can move it in its final year. In the meantime, you have a player on the team with a huge ego that still thinks he can do all the things he used to do. I'm not knocking his attitude. Thats what made him a star in the first place. Show me a star, and I'll show you an ego. But any sane person can see where that can be a problem. Old stars are the last one's to see the reality of the situation.

The second option, is to try and trade him. Probably not a popular option. Lets face it. Webber had a huge following. He was loved by many in this town. So unless you could pull off a major face saving trade for someone of significance, you were going to catch flack. I recall at the time, people on this fourm saying that it would be impossible to trade Webber. That no one in his right mind would eat that contract. Many pundits around the country said the same thing.

I don't know for a fact, but I would guess that the phone wasn't exactly ringing off the hook in Petrie's office. So what do you do? What do you do when the phone rings and you actually get an offer. At the time, it doesn't seem great, but in all honesty, it doesn't seem all that bad either. If I'm Petrie, I'm thinking, I know I can move Corliss. I'm also maybe thinking, hell, If I can move Webber, how hard can it be to move Kenny Thomas. At least he can still play.

Was it a gamble at the time? Sure. Did it turn out badly? It would appear. In truth, or maybe I should say in my opinion, the Kings were between a rock and a hard place. If they had kept Webber, who knows what might have happened. It might have turned out even worse. We don't know. I know you think you know, and I respect your opinon. But on this one, we disagree. I don't think there was a good answer. It happens in life..
 
I think the longer this drags out the MORE Artest's trade value drops. The more comments he makes like this the less likely teams are to impart with significant pieces for Artest. If I'm the Maloof's I'm getting rid of Ron Artest ASAP and not waiting until the trade deadline.

It's always good to hold your cards, but it's also good to know when to fold.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
But...Ron is right, isn't he? Letting Adelman go was a huge mistake. He's not the first one to say think it or the first one to say it. He didn't say it very diplomatically, but he's right. The first season he was in Sacramento the Kings went to the playoffs and the team around him has gotten progressively worse ever since. Reggie Theus was a noticeable improvement over Musselman, but he was still clearly a rookie coach and unprepared for the task of leading a team full-time. Maybe in 5 years Reggie will be ready but that's 5 years of mediocrity. Any player needs a great coach to get the best out of them, not just Ron Artest. The fact that he recognizes that doesn't make him an egotistical blow hard.

But whatever, that's just my opinion. I think you've clearly all gone nuts over this months ago so there's no point trying to talk sense now.
Its obvious that for some reason you have a love affair with Ron Artest that is clouding your vision. This has nothing to do with Rick Adleman being fired. It does have something to do with the fact that the Maloof's were the one's that fired him, and, I doubt they like that decision being questioned by one unstable, non commital employee that they happen to be paying a lot of money to.

It might have something to do with Ron Ron saying how much he loves the Kings and wants to lead them to a championship on one hand, and then going to New York and telling the press there, he would love to play for the Knicks. Or going to LA and tell the press there, he would love to play with Kobe.

If your so blind, you can't see the truth, and beleive me, its a big as a billboard, then there's no point in continuing with this.
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
dude you couldnt be any more wrong....

trading webber was a mistake not because he was traded but what he was traded for... if we had no use for webber why would we want more players that we have no use for with longer contracs? webber was traded 3 yrs ago and we still have kennys useless *** on the team.

i doubt anyone had a problem with actually trading webber... if you look back to the older posts this place had daily peja vs webber threads.... if he had been traded for a young player and some crap as filler we'd all be happy with the trade if we had a good young player to replace him.... but no we have crap... and tons of it. if we had kept webber we probably wouldnt have reef and moore... maybe even salmons because we might still have matt barnes...

firing adelman was a mistake.... a huge, huge mistake.... he was a good coach with what could have been a decent team if bonzi hadnt lost his damn mind and we had a decent pf.... though that was a blessing in disguise... unless bonzi was signed for mle in which case he would have replaced salmons....

if we had kept webber, adelman and possibly bonzi our team for the 05-06 season would have been....

bibby/hart
bonzi/martin (bonzi would be expiring)
artest/garcia/barnes
webber/who cares (webber would be a huge expiring contract)
miller/who cares

even if we had still lost in the 1st round we would have had freakish capspace... even more if peja hadnt been traded for artest... this team could have been rebuilt already... but instead we are stuck with crazy artest, poutyface thomas, injured reef, moore and salmons... and as much as i like hawes and possibly thompson... id rather not have them if it meant the real flexibility of actual capspace 2 years ago... or even last year depending on the situation....
 
The Webber trade was bad only because of who you got in return.

Lakers fans are split on whether to give up an asset like Odom (double-double guy with huge expiring contract) for Artest and a bad contract.

Suns announcer Eddie Johnson thinks it's a no-brainer for the Lakers because of Ron/Bill's talent.

I, for one, don't think the Maloofs will ever trade with the Lakers, That's why they killed the Bibby deal.
 
dude you couldnt be any more wrong....

trading webber was a mistake not because he was traded but what he was traded for... if we had no use for webber why would we want more players that we have no use for with longer contracs? webber was traded 3 yrs ago and we still have kennys useless *** on the team.
Remember that after the trade, Kenny Thomas averaged 14.5 points, almost 9 rebounds and 3 assists per game. He was 27, and it wasn't outside the realm of possibility that he could have increased his scoring by a few points. Webber averaged 15 and 8 after the trade, and there was every reason to think he would get worse.

Webber returned to being a productive offensive player and almost no one saw that Kenny would fall off a cliff and become the non-player he has. If he had become a 16 and 9 guy and stayed that way, the trade might not have been as bad. Again, hindsight is 20/20 and it's easy to say now that Kenny is a bad basketball player (which he is). Back then, it was a lot less clear.

Bricklayer hated the trade from the beginning, and he was right, so he's not going to see anyone else's opinion. My contention is that if Kenny had gotten slightly better while Webber deteriorated, the trade wouldn't have been so bad. But the opposite happened and it became the worst trade in recent Kings history.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
dude you couldnt be any more wrong....

trading webber was a mistake not because he was traded but what he was traded for... if we had no use for webber why would we want more players that we have no use for with longer contracs? webber was traded 3 yrs ago and we still have kennys useless *** on the team.

i doubt anyone had a problem with actually trading webber... if you look back to the older posts this place had daily peja vs webber threads.... if he had been traded for a young player and some crap as filler we'd all be happy with the trade if we had a good young player to replace him.... but no we have crap... and tons of it. if we had kept webber we probably wouldnt have reef and moore... maybe even salmons because we might still have matt barnes...

firing adelman was a mistake.... a huge, huge mistake.... he was a good coach with what could have been a decent team if bonzi hadnt lost his damn mind and we had a decent pf.... though that was a blessing in disguise... unless bonzi was signed for mle in which case he would have replaced salmons....

if we had kept webber, adelman and possibly bonzi our team for the 05-06 season would have been....

bibby/hart
bonzi/martin (bonzi would be expiring)
artest/garcia/barnes
webber/who cares (webber would be a huge expiring contract)
miller/who cares

even if we had still lost in the 1st round we would have had freakish capspace... even more if peja hadnt been traded for artest... this team could have been rebuilt already... but instead we are stuck with crazy artest, poutyface thomas, injured reef, moore and salmons... and as much as i like hawes and possibly thompson... id rather not have them if it meant the real flexibility of actual capspace 2 years ago... or even last year depending on the situation....
There is one common denominator in your post. The word IF. As my grandmother used to say. IF is for children. If we had gotten something different for Webber. At the time the trade went down, pundits across the country were shocked that Petrie found anyone who would even make an offer for him. You can sit here and speculate all day long on what should have been done, but if the deals not there, you can't make it.

No one knows what was offered or what deals were proposed by the Kings, and therefore, its impossible to comment intelligently without all the facts. The Kings tend not to air their negotiations in the local newspapers. Its easy to sit in your chair at home and think that your smarter than Petrie, and you could have worked some miracle that he was incapable of.

Do you actually think that Petrie gets up every morning and says to himself, Well, lets see what I can screw up today. Does he owe you an apology if he doesn't confide in you what his long term plan is? I'm not an apologist for him. If he makes a mistake, I'll lead the charge to point it out. I've already stated that the Webber trade didn't work out, and was, in hindsight, probably a mistake. But I also pointed out that there wern't many options available at the time.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Remember that after the trade, Kenny Thomas averaged 14.5 points, almost 9 rebounds and 3 assists per game. He was 27, and it wasn't outside the realm of possibility that he could have increased his scoring by a few points. Webber averaged 15 and 8 after the trade, and there was every reason to think he would get worse.

Webber returned to being a productive offensive player and almost no one saw that Kenny would fall off a cliff and become the non-player he has. If he had become a 16 and 9 guy and stayed that way, the trade might not have been as bad. Again, hindsight is 20/20 and it's easy to say now that Kenny is a bad basketball player (which he is). Back then, it was a lot less clear.

Bricklayer hated the trade from the beginning, and he was right, so he's not going to see anyone else's opinion. My contention is that if Kenny had gotten slightly better while Webber deteriorated, the trade wouldn't have been so bad. But the opposite happened and it became the worst trade in recent Kings history.
I sometimes wonder what would have happened if we had not aquired SAR. His aquisition and K. Thomas decline seemed to happen at the same time. Maybe if we don't do that deal, KT plays more, doesn't become a pouty face, and his value increases. Therefore making him tradable. Beings were playing the "What If" game. At the time, the signing of SAR seemed like a fairly good idea. He was a decent to good player and we seemingly needed help at the PF position. Looking back on it now, the possiblity of his having further knee problems came back to bite us in the long term and possibly did more to ruin the Webber trade in the short and long term than we could have realized at the time.
 

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
I sometimes wonder what would have happened if we had not aquired SAR. His aquisition and K. Thomas decline seemed to happen at the same time. Maybe if we don't do that deal, KT plays more, doesn't become a pouty face, and his value increases. Therefore making him tradable. Beings were playing the "What If" game. At the time, the signing of SAR seemed like a fairly good idea. He was a decent to good player and we seemingly needed help at the PF position. Looking back on it now, the possiblity of his having further knee problems came back to bite us in the long term and possibly did more to ruin the Webber trade in the short and long term than we could have realized at the time.
The problem with this post is the word IF. Your grandmother said that IF is for children. (Runs away and hides)
 
I sometimes wonder what would have happened if we had not aquired SAR. His aquisition and K. Thomas decline seemed to happen at the same time. Maybe if we don't do that deal, KT plays more, doesn't become a pouty face, and his value increases. Therefore making him tradable. Beings were playing the "What If" game. At the time, the signing of SAR seemed like a fairly good idea. He was a decent to good player and we seemingly needed help at the PF position. Looking back on it now, the possiblity of his having further knee problems came back to bite us in the long term and possibly did more to ruin the Webber trade in the short and long term than we could have realized at the time.

cant help it. kingsfans will continue to look at the webber trade as the reason we fell off. that brought us 2 VERY bad contracts. sucks. there is no other word for it. shipped out webber and brought in corliss, thomas, skinner. the inability and the size of kenny thomas was the cause of us signing sar in the 1st place. that obviously didnt work out either. so now we're paying over 14 mill the next 2 years because we were'nt patient enough to allow webber to finish his contract here.
 
Absolute rubbish!

Artest can nver improve a franchise. He could never improve us because he is just NOT a fanchise player. Never has been and never will be. He can be a very good piece that wcan contribute (for a short time) as a 2nd option but sooner or later his ego will get the better off him and he will destroy that franshice.
You just agreed with the same post you called rubbish. One can improve the franchise in the short term by being a great 2nd or 3rd fiddle. That's all I was saying. That was what was worth the risk.

"The interesting thing to me, though, is that the argument is that it was a bad trade because Artest helped the team win too much (as opposed to his behavior being the reason the trade was not worth it)."

To me that implies that people are saying it's either one or the other or it can only be one or the other.
That implication wasn't intended. I thought it was interesting that the argument being made was that he helped. I wasn't saying you couldn't argue that he hurt the team.
Well of course it's all subjective on one's opinion of that team's ability, I think it wouldn't have won anything important even assuming everyone was on the court healthy together so that's why I think it was a waste of a move. So the team getting it into their head that they could and should compete was disastrous, I guess you could say the org. doesn't decide to rebuild either way, but I don't think this org. is that stubborn. I just think that there's a big difference in impressions from finishing out of the playoffs and being competitive against the spurs. I don't think the Maloofs get all giddy if they trade Peja for smaller pieces or just like him expire and we finish out of the playoffs.
I too didn't think that team could have won anything important as constructed. But they did have a lot of talent and pieces that could potentially be fit together to make a contender. Perhaps trade Martin for a strong young big, keep Adelman and Wells, and make a few other changes and you've got a decent chance.

It didn't work out, but Artest has not done that much damage, so who cares? I certainly don't blame Artest for the current state of the team.
 
My contention is that if Kenny had gotten slightly better while Webber deteriorated, the trade wouldn't have been so bad. But the opposite happened and it became the worst trade in recent Kings history.
It still would have been bad. Kenny Thomas was never going to be a great power forward. For that trade to be worth it, Thomas would have to have been great or tradeable. Neither was the case.

Webber's ego was certainly an issue, but the team was playing well and he was still contributing on the court at that time more than Kenny Thomas ever has.

cant help it. kingsfans will continue to look at the webber trade as the reason we fell off.
Are you sure about that? I think most Kings fans just think it was one of several bad moves that are why the team is mediocre right now. The fall off would probably have happened anyway whether the Webber trade happened or not.