Draft remorse: WCS over ____________(split)

KingsFanSince85 said:
Regarding WCS's rebounding, several have made the key point that seems to be flying right over most Kings fans head --- that he spends so much time defending players away from the basket on the pick and roll (or pop) and after switches that he isn't going to accumulate a ton of rebounds consistently. His rebound numbers will be akin to a SF or G. Think about it. The only players that dominate the boards are those that park themselves near the basket on the consistent basis. That's not what WCS's role was at Kentucky and it's not what his role will be in Sacramento.

While he will be a weakside defender from time to time and get rebounds that way, much of the time the defensive action will pull him away from the basket. Just because the kid is 7' tall doesn't mean anything. It's how the player is utilized. His height really only matters if/when he is near the hoop. If he's not in rebounding position near the hoop, his height won't net him any more rebounds than a guard or forward with quick hands and feet.

Given that WCS will often be switching onto smaller players 10+ feet from the basket, you'd better prepare yourself for the realization that he'll never rebound like Boogie who is consistently camped out closer to the rim.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that post, I was going to point that out too. You not going to get as many rebounds if you out in the perimeter a lot. Nevertheless, I think He does need some work on boxing out.
 
Livinthedream said:
Then why did we draft a PF/C when what we wanted was a SF?
Click to expand...

What kind of question is this? Who said they wanted a SF??

They wanted someone that could improve the interior defense and/or defend the pick and roll. WCS just happens to be a big that can do both. He's a 7 footer that can defend at least 4 positions. Considering that the Kings already have a dominant post player, his role will likely take him out a little further from the basket.

It's really not that complicated.
 
KingsFanSince85 said:
What kind of question is this? Who said they wanted a SF??

They wanted someone that could improve the interior defense and/or defend the pick and roll. WCS just happens to be a big that can do both. He's a 7 footer that can defend at least 4 positions. Considering that the Kings already have a dominant post player, his role will likely take him out a little further from the basket.

It's really not that complicated.
Click to expand...

Relax. I was making a point. Everyone was making excuses about why he can't get rebounds. The running theme is that we drafted him to play perimiter D. If that's the case, then we should have got a SF. Or just put Rudy at PF permanently.

If you're 7 ft tall, you should be getting more rebounds, regardless. PGs and SGs can get more than 1 rebound a game. That's not that complicated.

WCS stepped up today and showed that nobody needs to make excuses for him. I'm actually very pleased with him today.

I may be on the unpopular side of the conversations on this board, but I'm not saying anything outlandish. I think more often than not I've been right on my stances. I just don't do the I told you so's, because that's not what I'm about. But I may start doing that just to open some of your eyes to the fact that you don't have to have purple colored glasses to actually know what you're talking about.

Strong differing opinions are fine, but I'm not tolerant to being talked down to.
 
Livinthedream said:
I may be on the unpopular side of the conversations on this board, but I'm not saying anything outlandish. I think more often than not I've been right on my stances. I just don't do the I told you so's, because that's not what I'm about. But I may start doing that just to open some of your eyes to the fact that you don't have to have purple colored glasses to actually know what you're talking about.

Strong differing opinions are fine, but I'm not tolerant to being talked down to.
Click to expand...

Doing the "I told you so" proves only one thing, that all that matters to you is whether you personally are right or wrong. Over the years, posters who persisted in that line of discussion haven't fared well.
 
After the enshrinement of Mudiay in the last game, I wanted to see how he does against Shabazz Napier and the Miami Heats, so I checked out the first half of today's game... He didn't look nearly as good against Napier... had 4-5 turnovers, shot 3-9 in first half. I still like his potential, like a Tyreke Evans with better passing, but without the elite penetration ability of Tyreke.
 
KingsFanSince85 said:
Regarding WCS's rebounding, several have made the key point that seems to be flying right over most Kings fans head --- that he spends so much time defending players away from the basket on the pick and roll (or pop) and after switches that he isn't going to accumulate a ton of rebounds consistently. His rebound numbers will be akin to a SF or G. Think about it. The only players that dominate the boards are those that park themselves near the basket on the consistent basis. That's not what WCS's role was at Kentucky and it's not what his role will be in Sacramento.

While he will be a weakside defender from time to time and get rebounds that way, much of the time the defensive action will pull him away from the basket. Just because the kid is 7' tall doesn't mean anything. It's how the player is utilized. His height really only matters if/when he is near the hoop. If he's not in rebounding position near the hoop, his height won't net him any more rebounds than a guard or forward with quick hands and feet.

Given that WCS will often be switching onto smaller players 10+ feet from the basket, you'd better prepare yourself for the realization that he'll never rebound like Boogie who is consistently camped out closer to the rim.
Click to expand...
Mmh, imagine... WCS on a star player for the majority of a game.
 
WCS is still not a good rebouder in all liklihood. He's just not a 1 rebound a game guy. Tall, skinny, mobile, runs around on the perimeter a lot chasing and showing. In some ways what he does is not built for defensive rebounding, which is a big problem if he's your only big because if your 7-footer won't do it, who will? Its not a big problem if he's in there next to Cuz or Koufos. Maybe he rebounds like a Dirk, or a Gasol or Brandon Wright or whatever, non-rebounders who just get enough. they will have 1 some nights, 8 or 9 others. Only a smattering of double figure games. But with Boogie munching them up that's ok for us as long as there is a reason for the board weeniness, and that reason is he's in defensive pursuit-mode.

Hew may never play full starting minutes, but if he was just a 7-8 guy in full minutes, that's enough next to Cuz. A 5-6 or less guy is not. Now you're talking full on wuss letting other teams walk over you to get to the glass.

P.S. while I don't think Webber did him justice, the one thing about Webber's rant that was correct is that WCS is never ever going to have a DeAndre like impact, because there's an enormous gulf between them on the glass. WCS is a true specialist of a different sort, not a big numbers guy. you're going to have to track his success via impact numbers, not bulk stats.
 
If WCS can stay healthy and stay hungry then he can be good in this league. BUT, he's raw. Very raw. It's why he doesn't rebound that well. He doesn't have a head for the game just yet. He really needs to focus on adding to his game, even if just a little here and there. Yes he's out on the perimeter a lot, but so is Ibaka. I'm not asking WCS to pull down 12-15 rebounds a game. Just 6-8 rebounds, 8-10 points, and 1-2 blocks. That's his ceiling imo.

I'll be honest I wanted Mudiay or Winslow. I'm a firm believer in drafting the best available, not who "fits" a role needed. We made a lot of draft picks because we needed a shooter, and we ended up wasting a lot of valuable draft picks trying to fit someone into that slot. I think WCS has a low ceiling (he's not gonna be an Ibaka/DJ) and the Kings could do some good getting a star next to Boogie.

That being said, I think WCS is a good fit for what we need at this very moment, so I'm still happy with the pick. I think 3-4 years from now a few guys drafted after him will have surpassed him in terms of impact. But for right now he's what we need. An athletic big who can protect the rim and keep Boogie from having to pick up extra fouls.
 
Last edited:
SacKings384 said:
If WCS can stay healthy and stay hungry then he can be good in this league. BUT, he's raw. Very raw. It's why he doesn't rebound that well. He doesn't have a head for the game just yet. He really needs to focus on adding to his game, even if just a little here and there.

That being said, I think WCS is a good fit for what we need at this very moment, so I'm still happy with the pick. I think 3-4 years from now a few guys drafted after him will have surpassed him in terms of impact. But for right now he's what we need. An athletic big who can protect the rim and keep Boogie from having to pick up extra fouls.
Click to expand...

I couldn't possibly disagree more. WCS is a true defender, who wants to protect the rim and block shots. He also possesses the willingness and ability to switch on defense, something that has been sorely missing of late. He fills a void that has been a major concern for a long time.
 
If we had a solid front court then I am sure most of us would had wanted Mudiay. I either wanted WCS or Mudiay, but being that we needed front court help over a PG I would rather have had WCS.
 
VF21 said:
Doing the "I told you so" proves only one thing, that all that matters to you is whether you personally are right or wrong. Over the years, posters who persisted in that line of discussion haven't fared well.
Click to expand...

Not sure if this is a warning, threat. advice or what?
 
jdbraver said:
Who is saying he can't play? We do NOT have a need at PG. we had no rim protector. Hello?
Click to expand...
It is a lot easier to find a shot blocker than a legit PG in this league. Hell, the kings had shot blocking C's for the past several years and let them walk.

With that being said, WCS has the tools few 7 footers have. He's very athletic, has hops, can cover a ton of ground quickly and can hopefully develop his skillset. If he pulls it all together, he could be an even better combination of Camby and Chandler.
 
I'm very pleased with WCS so far. I'm not impressed with guards as much in summer league playing against lesser competition with the ball in their hands frequently. They will not be able to do what they've been showing in the regular season, nor will they be the number one options as frequently. I mean you've got a guy who is the number one option basically in Denver with the ball in his hands vs lesser competition. You should be worried if he is not putting up close to 20 a game.
 
Iced Espresso said:
I'm very pleased with WCS so far. I'm not impressed with guards as much in summer league playing against lesser competition with the ball in their hands frequently. They will not be able to do what they've been showing in the regular season, nor will they be the number one options as frequently. I mean you've got a guy who is the number one option basically in Denver with the ball in his hands vs lesser competition. You should be worried if he is not putting up close to 20 a game.
Click to expand...

Yes and no. What's been impressive about Mudiay so far isn't really his scoring. It's more the way he controls the tempo of the game, picks his spots, and sets up his teammates. Guards do often dominate the action in summer league (or really any setting where players are thrown together with minimal time to practice and get to know each other) but strong passing PG play is comparatively rare and Denver is winning with teamwork not individual play. As others have said, the stats and the final game scores are a small piece of the big picture. Really what you're looking for in this setting are skills that will translate to the pro game and -- especially with young players -- awareness of where they are on the court at all times, what their role out there is, and an ability to react to changing circumstances. For PGs you want to see them take open shots when they get them, keep their teammates involved, make smart plays not flashy plays, and understand how best to take advantage of the clock (slowing the game down when you're ahead or speeding it up when you need to make up ground). Mudiay has looked like a mature professional in all of those areas. His ability to hit shots is still a work in progress but other than that, he looks to me like he could run an NBA team this year.
 
hrdboild said:
Yes and no. What's been impressive about Mudiay so far isn't really his scoring. It's more the way he controls the tempo of the game, picks his spots, and sets up his teammates. Guards do often dominate the action in summer league (or really any setting where players are thrown together with minimal time to practice and get to know each other) but strong passing PG play is comparatively rare and Denver is winning with teamwork not individual play. As others have said, the stats and the final game scores are a small piece of the big picture. Really what you're looking for in this setting are skills that will translate to the pro game and -- especially with young players -- awareness of where they are on the court at all times, what their role out there is, and an ability to react to changing circumstances. For PGs you want to see them take open shots when they get them, keep their teammates involved, make smart plays not flashy plays, and understand how best to take advantage of the clock (slowing the game down when you're ahead or speeding it up when you need to make up ground). Mudiay has looked like a mature professional in all of those areas. His ability to hit shots is still a work in progress but other than that, he looks to me like he could run an NBA team this year.
Click to expand...

Of course the primary ball handler, the best scoring option, is going to control the tempo or pace. I mean you just took my simple premise and extended it without changing the basic point of the competition level is sub par. I also expect him to be given room on the outside forcing him to put up a shot at times where he may be able to beat his man now, where on pick and rolls to always collapse inwards too. I see less skill and size than Tyreke had as an individual scorer, less defense and size as well.
 
Bricklayer said:
WCS is still not a good rebouder in all liklihood. He's just not a 1 rebound a game guy. Tall, skinny, mobile, runs around on the perimeter a lot chasing and showing. In some ways what he does is not built for defensive rebounding, which is a big problem if he's your only big because if your 7-footer won't do it, who will? Its not a big problem if he's in there next to Cuz or Koufos. Maybe he rebounds like a Dirk, or a Gasol or Brandon Wright or whatever, non-rebounders who just get enough. they will have 1 some nights, 8 or 9 others. Only a smattering of double figure games. But with Boogie munching them up that's ok for us as long as there is a reason for the board weeniness, and that reason is he's in defensive pursuit-mode.

Hew may never play full starting minutes, but if he was just a 7-8 guy in full minutes, that's enough next to Cuz. A 5-6 or less guy is not. Now you're talking full on wuss letting other teams walk over you to get to the glass.

P.S. while I don't think Webber did him justice, the one thing about Webber's rant that was correct is that WCS is never ever going to have a DeAndre like impact, because there's an enormous gulf between them on the glass. WCS is a true specialist of a different sort, not a big numbers guy. you're going to have to track his success via impact numbers, not bulk stats.
Click to expand...

Exactly! I think the positive as well as the negative from what we've seen so far from Cauley-Stein is that he has been almost exactly as advertised. On the positive he defends the pick and roll extremely well. He stays with his man or switches at the proper times and even if a mistake is made he can handle guarding either man. He tends to break up the pass on the pick and roll which leads to steals. He can block shots in various ways. He also runs the floor very well which breaks up fast breaks or can score on easy baskets.

On the negative he is just not aggressive on the boards, seems very timid. I think he places himself well and has a good nose for the ball, but he just doesn't go after it and that bothers me. I wonder if he will ever be able to rebound well. He also is very awkward with the ball and tends to miss easy put backs at times which he needs to get better at. The only points he will get on this team are garbage points so better take advantage of those. I'm also concerned with his lack of minutes, hardly played more than 20 minutes per game in college and I think in summer league it has been even less. Perhaps it's all he can handle. Maybe Cauley-Stein and Koufos will split the time in the spot next to Cousins since Koufos doesn't play many minutes either.

One thing that I'm not concerned with is Mudiay's performance so far. Summer league is built for a player like him, he should put up big numbers. The Nuggets should be concerned if he doesn't.
 
Both Mudiay AND Cauley-Stein have been as advertised.

The former was billed as a big, athletic PG who had good passing instincts but was a poor shooter. The latter was billed as an athletic big man who could disrupt offenses, protect the rim, and run the floor but who wasn't a great rebounder and isn't a scorer.

Yes, WCS will never be a great rebounder. But he should be getting more than 1 per game. And Mudiay shows a lot of promise but dropping 19 and 10 on a Kings SL squad that has no NBA level guards outside of Anderson at the 2 isn't the most impressive thing in the world. Yesterday WCS showed up better on the glass and Mudiay still had a good game with 10 & 8 but Shabazz Napier dropped 20 & 6 on him and Mudiay really struggled with his shot.

None of this is surprising or really all that concerning.

Cauley-Stein will have to be more aggressive on the boards to carve out a role in the NBA, but his closeout speed, his shotblocking, his ability to disrupt the P&R, his transition and finishing game will all be big boosts to a Kings team that needed help in every one of those areas.

Mudiay will have an up and down rookie season as the vast majority of rookie PGs do. Some nights (especially when his shot is falling) he'll look like he's arrived and other nights he'll get schooled by veteran PGs. But he has a calmness to his play that I think will serve him very well. He will control the game and be able to have a solid impact even when he's not scoring well. He has the tools to be a good defender but I think he'll struggle there his first year. Do I see a superstar in Mudiay? No, I really don't. He doesn't have any aspect of his game that is really elite though he's pretty solid in most areas. He doesn't have that Kidd/Rubio/Nash otherworldly court vision. He doesn't have that Tyreke/Iverson/Kenny Anderson ball handling and ability to get to the rim. He doesn't have Wall's warp speed or Rose/Westbrook's explosiveness. And obviously he's not a shooter. He doesn't have that one true gift that he can always fall back on but I do think in time he will be a very, very good PG. How good depends on what he does with his shot. And as I said before the draft, I think he'll be a better PG than DeAngelo Russell.
 
There are several reasons why Sac didn't take Mudiay.....refusal to take part in workout or even an interview, WCS also fills a hole and it doesn't hurt that Cuz endorsed the WCS pick but maybe the biggest point is that Sac/Karl/Divac probably prefers the vet Rondo to run the ship and the plan is to make the playoffs now...not a few years from now.

And having gotten the opportunity to read up and listen to Rondo and his characteristics and high IQ....I think it was a no-brainer to choose Rondo over Mudiay. I believe that Sac is convinced that Rondo is going to get back to an all-star level in a George Karl run offense.....as nice a prospect as Mudiay is, Rondo is the better fit for what they want to do right now.
 
Livinthedream said:
Relax. I was making a point. Everyone was making excuses about why he can't get rebounds. The running theme is that we drafted him to play perimiter D. If that's the case, then we should have got a SF. Or just put Rudy at PF permanently.

If you're 7 ft tall, you should be getting more rebounds, regardless. PGs and SGs can get more than 1 rebound a game. That's not that complicated.

WCS stepped up today and showed that nobody needs to make excuses for him. I'm actually very pleased with him today.

I may be on the unpopular side of the conversations on this board, but I'm not saying anything outlandish. I think more often than not I've been right on my stances. I just don't do the I told you so's, because that's not what I'm about. But I may start doing that just to open some of your eyes to the fact that you don't have to have purple colored glasses to actually know what you're talking about.

Strong differing opinions are fine, but I'm not tolerant to being talked down to.
Click to expand...

My great aunt that raised me, told me to beware of anyone that uses the word "I" constantly.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Geoff
VF KingsFans Official Fantasy Basketball League 2024-2025 Season
Replies
4
Views
1K
PorchSurfin
PorchSurfin
Spike
  • Poll Poll
NBA Power Rankings, Week of 11/28
Replies
0
Views
195
Spike
Spike
Spike
What Do The Kings Mean to You?
Replies
9
Views
735
Jdbraver137
J
Geoff
VF Kings Fans Official Fantasy Basketball League 2023-2024 Season
Replies
22
Views
4K
MizzouKing
MizzouKing
Capt. Factorial
Can we get a quality player in the 2023 draft?
2
Replies
56
Views
5K
206Fan
2
Back
Top