Draft remorse: WCS over ____________(split)
- Thread starter kingjatt
- Start date
But that's not what you said. You said bigs like wcs are easy to get... then listed a bunch of guys who weren't easy to get.
Now you're saying what have we needed the last few years a star pg or another big... I would say since our offense has consistantly been average to good and defense has been consistantly bottom 5 that what we've needed lines up with what is hard to get... a mobile, defensively versatile big who can anchor our defense.
Now you're saying what have we needed the last few years a star pg or another big... I would say since our offense has consistantly been average to good and defense has been consistantly bottom 5 that what we've needed lines up with what is hard to get... a mobile, defensively versatile big who can anchor our defense.
I mean, to a certain extent I always think I'm right. 
It's a real weakness of mine. Even if every other person on the planet tells me I'm wrong I'll still assume I'm right until something convinces me personally. I said that Mudiay looked really good yesterday (I'm not the only one who thought this) and that Cauley-Stein was on the floor for 22 minutes and for at least half of that time he wasn't having an impact on either end of the court. He did have a few quick moments where he looked like an elite prospect but then he'd settle back into being a non-factor. And that's completely consistent with what I saw at Kentucky. I just don't see him ever becoming an elite player. I suppose optimism is a more popular way to go. In the grand scheme of things, I'm thrilled with the job Vlade has done this summer. This whole following up on the draft thing and seeing if I was right in my assessments or not is mostly for my own edification.
It's a real weakness of mine. Even if every other person on the planet tells me I'm wrong I'll still assume I'm right until something convinces me personally. I said that Mudiay looked really good yesterday (I'm not the only one who thought this) and that Cauley-Stein was on the floor for 22 minutes and for at least half of that time he wasn't having an impact on either end of the court. He did have a few quick moments where he looked like an elite prospect but then he'd settle back into being a non-factor. And that's completely consistent with what I saw at Kentucky. I just don't see him ever becoming an elite player. I suppose optimism is a more popular way to go. In the grand scheme of things, I'm thrilled with the job Vlade has done this summer. This whole following up on the draft thing and seeing if I was right in my assessments or not is mostly for my own edification.At least with Rondo you know he can play on an NBA court, which was an unknown with Mudiaye. The other issues with Rondo you hope can be managed with a better environment and system. No one knows if Rondo is using Sac as a stop-gap for a better contract. Gay signed an extension and the recent FA signings suggest Sac is at least on the radar.
No. I can state unequivocally, with complete confidence, that there is less than a zero percent chance that I would do such a thing. Primarily, because I don't covet point guards like other people do, and I never have. And also because it's Summer League.
I wanted us to draft a guy who can defend multiple positions, and protect the weak side. Cauley-Stein appears to be that guy. I'm not interested in Mudiay's potential. I'm a big believer in drafting for need over BPA, and we needed a rim protector, who can guard smaller players more than we needed an All-Star point guard. If Cauley-Stein becomes what we need him to become, I wouldn't give a rat's ass if Mudiay becomes MVP of the league.
And, if it makes you feel any better, I don't equate "any and all criticism of Cauley-Stein with shameful self-promotion," I merely equate criticism of Cauley-Stein which deliberately contrasts him to some guy at a different position we coulda-woulda-shoulda drafted instead with shameless self-promotion.
I wanted us to draft a guy who can defend multiple positions, and protect the weak side. Cauley-Stein appears to be that guy. I'm not interested in Mudiay's potential. I'm a big believer in drafting for need over BPA, and we needed a rim protector, who can guard smaller players more than we needed an All-Star point guard. If Cauley-Stein becomes what we need him to become, I wouldn't give a rat's ass if Mudiay becomes MVP of the league.
And, if it makes you feel any better, I don't equate "any and all criticism of Cauley-Stein with shameful self-promotion," I merely equate criticism of Cauley-Stein which deliberately contrasts him to some guy at a different position we coulda-woulda-shoulda drafted instead with shameless self-promotion.
Reason has **** all to do with it; I'm not sitting here mad that we passed up Stephen Curry, either.
EDIT - The point, since you want to talk about "reason," is that a reasonable person doesn't lament drafting somebody who is the right fit for their team, just because they could have gotten someone else, that turns out to be a star. Like, do you really think that Washington regrets drafting John Wall, even though they could have drafted DeMarcus Cousins? Because I don't.
EDIT - The point, since you want to talk about "reason," is that a reasonable person doesn't lament drafting somebody who is the right fit for their team, just because they could have gotten someone else, that turns out to be a star. Like, do you really think that Washington regrets drafting John Wall, even though they could have drafted DeMarcus Cousins? Because I don't.
Last edited:
What's wrong with feeling that way though? I'll gladly congratulate Mudiay on his RotY title next year while we're battling it out with the best of the West in the playoffs. If the question is, "How do the Kings get into playoffs in the West next season?" - WCS fits the answer MUCH better than Mudiay, regardless of differences in their individual talent.
He didn't say RoY, he said league MVP. You'd take a first round playoff berth over a league MVP? You're talking about a class of players there that includes Stephen Curry, Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Derrick Rose, Dirk Nowitzki, Kobe Bryant, Steve Nash, Kevin Garnett. A class of players which can single-handidly lead you to the Finals. You add that type of player next to DeMarcus Cousins and you're pretty much guaranteed multiple championships. Again, if you're that committed to the idea of "all we need on this team is a defensive role-player" that you would spit on a league MVP than I have nothing else to say.
There are several flaws in your logic, but the biggest one is this - Mudiay is not Magic, he won't be MVP this coming year. And if we're not making playoffs this year, DMC is as good as gone (and nobody can blame him). Which means no, you won't be pairing the MVP Mudiay with DMC any time soon.
Bottom line is, this coming year is as close to "all or nothing" as it gets. We cannot spend any time grooming potential, no matter how high the ceiling is. We need as close to a "sure thing" as possible, and WCS fit our needs like a glove.
Bottom line is, this coming year is as close to "all or nothing" as it gets. We cannot spend any time grooming potential, no matter how high the ceiling is. We need as close to a "sure thing" as possible, and WCS fit our needs like a glove.
WCS and Mudiay are apparently both very good basketball prospects. We would be well off picking either one. We could pick only ne. We picked WCS. Very good pick. The next picker picked
Mudiay. Good pick.
Was picking WCS at that time a good pick. Yes. That's the end of it unless you love debate and have plenty of time to kill. Also, it is the end of it as far as rating Vlade on his draft performance.
Mudiay. Good pick.
Was picking WCS at that time a good pick. Yes. That's the end of it unless you love debate and have plenty of time to kill. Also, it is the end of it as far as rating Vlade on his draft performance.
I wanted Mudiay at first, but WCS serves two purposes.
1) He takes the defensive heat off of DMC, which keeps him from getting 5 fouls in the first 30 minutes of every game, which means DMC can finish off games instead of sitting or fouling out.
2) Gets you that defensive stopper, ala Joakim Noah or Tyson Chandler type big that we have needed for a long time.
Mudiay had a nice game against our non-NBA summer league guards.
His first game was not so memorable with 11 pts (5-15, 0-4 on 3 pointers) and 4 assists.
This is summer league people, point guards will always look better than bigs, because they have the ball in their hands all game. Bigs depend on their guards to get them the ball, and our guards suck (sorry Stockton)!
1) He takes the defensive heat off of DMC, which keeps him from getting 5 fouls in the first 30 minutes of every game, which means DMC can finish off games instead of sitting or fouling out.
2) Gets you that defensive stopper, ala Joakim Noah or Tyson Chandler type big that we have needed for a long time.
Mudiay had a nice game against our non-NBA summer league guards.
His first game was not so memorable with 11 pts (5-15, 0-4 on 3 pointers) and 4 assists.
This is summer league people, point guards will always look better than bigs, because they have the ball in their hands all game. Bigs depend on their guards to get them the ball, and our guards suck (sorry Stockton)!
Gotta love summer league and the overreactions (both positive and negative) that it elicits from fans.
Here's the only thing I ever get out of summer league - whether a guy looks like a bust or not. That's it.
If a guy looks like he can't compete in the SL then it is a terrible sign for his rookie year. But as long as that's not the case, it's REALLY hard to project how a guy will do.
To answer someone's earlier question, no I don't remember Donte Green scoring 50 in Summer League. But he did score 40. As a rookie. In his first game. He had a bad shooting night in the next game and still scored 18. The 2012 SL co-MVP was Josh Selby who is currently out of the league just as Donte is.
Mudiay showed he could play. Absolutely. And he flashed enough to give Nuggets fans the hope that he will be a star PG. They should be excited. I know I would if he were on the Kings. He was as advertised if not better. But Cauley-Stein has so far been what I expected him to be as well. He's shown that he belongs in the NBA and should play the role the Kings need him to play.
But it is still SL. Guards and shooters tend to put up big numbers. So I'll wait until the regular season when both guys are facing NBA caliber talent in something other than glorified pickup games before deciding that the Kings absolutely blew the draft by taking WCS.
Here's the only thing I ever get out of summer league - whether a guy looks like a bust or not. That's it.
If a guy looks like he can't compete in the SL then it is a terrible sign for his rookie year. But as long as that's not the case, it's REALLY hard to project how a guy will do.
To answer someone's earlier question, no I don't remember Donte Green scoring 50 in Summer League. But he did score 40. As a rookie. In his first game. He had a bad shooting night in the next game and still scored 18. The 2012 SL co-MVP was Josh Selby who is currently out of the league just as Donte is.
Mudiay showed he could play. Absolutely. And he flashed enough to give Nuggets fans the hope that he will be a star PG. They should be excited. I know I would if he were on the Kings. He was as advertised if not better. But Cauley-Stein has so far been what I expected him to be as well. He's shown that he belongs in the NBA and should play the role the Kings need him to play.
But it is still SL. Guards and shooters tend to put up big numbers. So I'll wait until the regular season when both guys are facing NBA caliber talent in something other than glorified pickup games before deciding that the Kings absolutely blew the draft by taking WCS.
Neither of them is going to be a huge help in this playoff run- they are rookies... and you can't count on rookie's if you want to win.
I like WCS because of his ceiling, I think there is a good chance he can become a very good defender and if he develops properly he has the chance to become a better cutter and score effectively like DJ or Brandan Wright, he also showed that he can develop a workable jumper.
But I'm not expecting him to do any of those things this year, atleast not the first half of the year. I'm not even expecting him to be a good defender, rookie's struggle- check out the players named "NBA ready" and see how many of them was actually able to bring anything to the table their first year... I'll quote an older post I made about this:
If we look at last year 2nd season players you could see that adjusting is usually needed:
1. Ben's DFG% (defended field goal precentage- the field goal precntage of the opponent when the player is defending the shot) is equal to the usual FG% of that same player on average this year.
While as a rookie players shot 4.5% better on him than on average, which is a HUGE difference as a defender.
2. Otto Porter DFG% is 3.4% lower than the average FG%- meaning he was a good defender this year.
While as a rookie players shot only 0.5 precent worse on him, again a huge difference in defense from first to second year.
3. Anthony Davis was supposed to be a defensive monster from the moment he reached the league, his rookie year he made players shot 2.7% worse on him- which is pretty good, but in his second year he became MUCH better- making opponents shot 6.2% worse than usual.
Of course that the FG% of your opponent isn't the only part of defense but it does goes to show that between year one and year two players can improve a lot defensively.
Could WCS be a solid/plus defender his rookie year? maybe, but I doubt he will be good enough on defense for you to want to start him despite his offense.
I like WCS because of his ceiling, I think there is a good chance he can become a very good defender and if he develops properly he has the chance to become a better cutter and score effectively like DJ or Brandan Wright, he also showed that he can develop a workable jumper.
But I'm not expecting him to do any of those things this year, atleast not the first half of the year. I'm not even expecting him to be a good defender, rookie's struggle- check out the players named "NBA ready" and see how many of them was actually able to bring anything to the table their first year... I'll quote an older post I made about this:
If we look at last year 2nd season players you could see that adjusting is usually needed:
1. Ben's DFG% (defended field goal precentage- the field goal precntage of the opponent when the player is defending the shot) is equal to the usual FG% of that same player on average this year.
While as a rookie players shot 4.5% better on him than on average, which is a HUGE difference as a defender.
2. Otto Porter DFG% is 3.4% lower than the average FG%- meaning he was a good defender this year.
While as a rookie players shot only 0.5 precent worse on him, again a huge difference in defense from first to second year.
3. Anthony Davis was supposed to be a defensive monster from the moment he reached the league, his rookie year he made players shot 2.7% worse on him- which is pretty good, but in his second year he became MUCH better- making opponents shot 6.2% worse than usual.
Of course that the FG% of your opponent isn't the only part of defense but it does goes to show that between year one and year two players can improve a lot defensively.
Could WCS be a solid/plus defender his rookie year? maybe, but I doubt he will be good enough on defense for you to want to start him despite his offense.
Hold on a second, my head is spinning. Mudiay vs. Cauley-Stein has morphed somehow into John Wall vs. DeMarcus Cousins -- two of the best prospects to come out of any draft in the last 10 years -- and Mudiay is either Magic Johnson or Cuz abandons Sacramento? I mean, have you no shame? Yeah, I was right the first time. Nothing to see here. I'm out.
No, you missed the point, again, and I'm even less surprised than I was the last time. The point is that what Mudiay is or isn't is irrelevant to whether Cauley-Stein was a good pick. That's the only reason why I mentioned MVP's in the first place. Because Mudiay's potential doesn't matter; only Cauley-Stein's does. If Cauley-Stein becomes as advertised, then we made the right pick, and what Mudiay becomes is unimportant. That was the point of the Wall/Cousins comparison: because it's one thing to ***** about missing out on a great player, when you drafted a scrub (e.g., Fredette versus Leonard), but it's taking whining to a whole new level to ***** about missing out on a great player, when you still ended up with a great player.
Don't think anyone here said we'd rely on WCS as a key contributor, just that he fits our needs (which he does). If we are "all in" this year, I'd rather our rookie be a weak-side / P&R defender than a point guard controlling the ball / offense. In other words, given our position this year, need >>>> BPA.
And apologies, hrdboild, I didn't mean to come off aggressive or seem hostile. Head-to-head comparisons are silly, of course, especially based on two Summer League games, but hey - without silly propositions, Internet forums would not exist
And apologies, hrdboild, I didn't mean to come off aggressive or seem hostile. Head-to-head comparisons are silly, of course, especially based on two Summer League games, but hey - without silly propositions, Internet forums would not exist
Mudiay might have a rookie season as good as Tyreke Evans. And he might give Nuggets fans the same hope Kings fans had after that first year. And perhaps Mudiay has the work ethic to actually capitalize on that potential. All very possible. But I don't think a rookie year Tyreke Evans helps this current Kings team make the playoffs. I'm not sure a rookie Tyreke Evans starts over Darren Collison - not for a team that wants to make the playoffs.
Mudiay absolutely would have been my pick if (1) the Kings think Cousins is going to force his way out or (2) if they want to hedge their bets on that happening. But WCS is my pick if the Kings are all in on Cousins and keeping him happy and building around him. Clearly the Kings are continuing to go all in on Boogie.
I was a big fan of drafting Mudiay. I've also been a big fan of WCS as a fit next to Boogie for a couple years now. Once it was obvious that both guys would be on the board at #6 I knew I'd be fine with the pick. And I am.
Mudiay absolutely would have been my pick if (1) the Kings think Cousins is going to force his way out or (2) if they want to hedge their bets on that happening. But WCS is my pick if the Kings are all in on Cousins and keeping him happy and building around him. Clearly the Kings are continuing to go all in on Boogie.
I was a big fan of drafting Mudiay. I've also been a big fan of WCS as a fit next to Boogie for a couple years now. Once it was obvious that both guys would be on the board at #6 I knew I'd be fine with the pick. And I am.
We said this about Ben in Summer League, but its actually true with WCS. Right now WCS is playing with a bunch of dudes who don't have any defined roles and flat out aren't NBA talents. WCS is someone who makes good players better and is a glue guy for a starting unit. Not someone you build a team around.
I said this before, but WCS will not be a stat-stuffer for a few years probably. His impact will show up at the end of games and help us win games. Looking forward to using analytics and showing all the +/- stuff WCS will very likely be awesome at next season.
I said this before, but WCS will not be a stat-stuffer for a few years probably. His impact will show up at the end of games and help us win games. Looking forward to using analytics and showing all the +/- stuff WCS will very likely be awesome at next season.
Regarding WCS's rebounding, several have made the key point that seems to be flying right over most Kings fans head --- that he spends so much time defending players away from the basket on the pick and roll (or pop) and after switches that he isn't going to accumulate a ton of rebounds consistently. His rebound numbers will be akin to a SF or G. Think about it. The only players that dominate the boards are those that park themselves near the basket on the consistent basis. That's not what WCS's role was at Kentucky and it's not what his role will be in Sacramento.
While he will be a weakside defender from time to time and get rebounds that way, much of the time the defensive action will pull him away from the basket. Just because the kid is 7' tall doesn't mean anything. It's how the player is utilized. His height really only matters if/when he is near the hoop. If he's not in rebounding position near the hoop, his height won't net him any more rebounds than a guard or forward with quick hands and feet.
Given that WCS will often be switching onto smaller players 10+ feet from the basket, you'd better prepare yourself for the realization that he'll never rebound like Boogie who is consistently camped out closer to the rim.
While he will be a weakside defender from time to time and get rebounds that way, much of the time the defensive action will pull him away from the basket. Just because the kid is 7' tall doesn't mean anything. It's how the player is utilized. His height really only matters if/when he is near the hoop. If he's not in rebounding position near the hoop, his height won't net him any more rebounds than a guard or forward with quick hands and feet.
Given that WCS will often be switching onto smaller players 10+ feet from the basket, you'd better prepare yourself for the realization that he'll never rebound like Boogie who is consistently camped out closer to the rim.