Draft remorse: WCS over ____________(split)
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That's because I was referring to defensive positioning, not rebounding. When he guards someone 101, even a smaller player, he knows how to position himself, move his feet and use his length. That's one of the reasons he was considered an elite defender in college and why he can defend nearly every position on the floor. Towns and Moreland are not better in that regard.
No, it's already been proven to be a poor observation. Nobody accused anybody of an ad hominem attack. Go back and re-read. Now both of you have misinterpreted what was actually said and connected dots that weren't there. It's not all that surprising though, given the history of those involved. Par for the course.
You compare WCS pulling down 1 rebound in twenty minutes to Mudiay scoring 19 points and having 10 assists, and then claim that this proves that Mudiay is the more talented player.
I disagree. First, this comparison does not effectively compare the two players because we are comparing players at different positions and with different metrics. On the one hand, we are comparing the rebounding of WCS, and on the other hand, we are comparing Mudiay's scoring and assists. We can say that WCS' rebounding performance for one game was underwhelming, and that Mudiay's point guard performance for one game was fantastic, but it is incorrect to say that one game in the summer league proves that Mudiay is the more talented player in the NBA. Unless if we are comparing Ryan Hollins to Kyrie Irving, where there is a clear talent gap, backed up by many hours of play, it is difficult to compare the talent of two players of two different positions. It would be more convincing to compare point guards' talent levels with small sample sizes (e.g. one summer league game), but even that would require some justification. Comparing the talent level of two players of different positions requires a larger sample size and a larger talent gap. Mudiay is not the more talented player; WCS is not the more talented player. We don't have enough evidence to claim one or the other. However, it is reasonable to state that WCS fills more of a need than Mudiay, as you mention for the rest of your post.
Here, you imply that we will regret not taking Mudiay because you claim that he will reach the level of an "NBA player", which I will assume means "starter-level material". Whether or not you are correct about Mudiay's NBA future (which is still in question, as it is with all rookies), that does not affect whether or not Mudiay was the correct selection for the Kings. He was not.
I disagree. First, this comparison does not effectively compare the two players because we are comparing players at different positions and with different metrics. On the one hand, we are comparing the rebounding of WCS, and on the other hand, we are comparing Mudiay's scoring and assists. We can say that WCS' rebounding performance for one game was underwhelming, and that Mudiay's point guard performance for one game was fantastic, but it is incorrect to say that one game in the summer league proves that Mudiay is the more talented player in the NBA. Unless if we are comparing Ryan Hollins to Kyrie Irving, where there is a clear talent gap, backed up by many hours of play, it is difficult to compare the talent of two players of two different positions. It would be more convincing to compare point guards' talent levels with small sample sizes (e.g. one summer league game), but even that would require some justification. Comparing the talent level of two players of different positions requires a larger sample size and a larger talent gap. Mudiay is not the more talented player; WCS is not the more talented player. We don't have enough evidence to claim one or the other. However, it is reasonable to state that WCS fills more of a need than Mudiay, as you mention for the rest of your post.
Here, you imply that we will regret not taking Mudiay because you claim that he will reach the level of an "NBA player", which I will assume means "starter-level material". Whether or not you are correct about Mudiay's NBA future (which is still in question, as it is with all rookies), that does not affect whether or not Mudiay was the correct selection for the Kings. He was not.
Possibly so. I have no desire to go back and check. 
FWIW, I really like Mudiay. Before the draft, my final wishlist was 1a. WCS 1b. Mudiay (someone can check my post history if they doubt). In fact, he's surprised me with his playmaking - he looks like a true PG. I did mention in my pre-draft write-up of him that he struggles with TOs, which is still the case, but down the road I think his positives are going to make up for that. He's shown the ability to consistently find open looks for his teammates and also put the ball in the hoop when needed. Rough around the edges, yes, but a very impressive talent.
FWIW, I really like Mudiay. Before the draft, my final wishlist was 1a. WCS 1b. Mudiay (someone can check my post history if they doubt). In fact, he's surprised me with his playmaking - he looks like a true PG. I did mention in my pre-draft write-up of him that he struggles with TOs, which is still the case, but down the road I think his positives are going to make up for that. He's shown the ability to consistently find open looks for his teammates and also put the ball in the hoop when needed. Rough around the edges, yes, but a very impressive talent.
I personally miss Peja vs CWebb...
But in all seriousness, I don't really care who's better. Even if we drafted on talent and picked Mudiay to deal in exchange for proven vets, we don't have time to showcase him, and Karl probably wouldn't do that anyway. We need to win now, and I think WCS can best help us do that.
But in all seriousness, I don't really care who's better. Even if we drafted on talent and picked Mudiay to deal in exchange for proven vets, we don't have time to showcase him, and Karl probably wouldn't do that anyway. We need to win now, and I think WCS can best help us do that.
In that post, you use these only summer league games as evidence, and don't say any thing about evidence other than summer league.
I never intended to be condescending, just argumentative. It's unfortunate that you think everyone is out to get you, though. You could be right about everyone else being out to get you, but not with me, trust that.
I mean, the level of condescension here is practically performance art.
For the record, I'm not stating that your conclusions are right or wrong. However, regardless how long you've been scouting one or both players, your conclusions aren't based upon anything substantial. Neither player has played in an actual NBA game and whatever they've shown to this point in time in high school, college, overseas or SL means very little. It may or may not translate to the NBA.
It's one thing to form an early opinion on what you believe may happen but an altogether thing to declare something a forgone conclusion based upon everything you've witnessed up to SL. Heck, it will still be foolish to do so even after an entire season or two in the NBA. For example, many felt that Tyreke Evans was a better player and draft selection than Stephen Curry immediately after the '09 draft and throughout their 1st year in the league. Many of those same people still felt the same way after year 2 or 3. But how many feel that way now?
It's not too early to have gut feeling about WCS v. Mudiay, but it is far too early to know anything for certain no matter much you've seen them play prior to the NBA.
It's one thing to form an early opinion on what you believe may happen but an altogether thing to declare something a forgone conclusion based upon everything you've witnessed up to SL. Heck, it will still be foolish to do so even after an entire season or two in the NBA. For example, many felt that Tyreke Evans was a better player and draft selection than Stephen Curry immediately after the '09 draft and throughout their 1st year in the league. Many of those same people still felt the same way after year 2 or 3. But how many feel that way now?
It's not too early to have gut feeling about WCS v. Mudiay, but it is far too early to know anything for certain no matter much you've seen them play prior to the NBA.
I admit to being condescending, but only when deserved. I know I absolutely rub some people up the wrong way.
Still not going to pretend that Kingster posts in a constructive manner. He actually would have had some legit points re WCS rebounding, if he hadn't decided to use hyperbole and exaggeration, as always.
Still not going to pretend that Kingster posts in a constructive manner. He actually would have had some legit points re WCS rebounding, if he hadn't decided to use hyperbole and exaggeration, as always.
Again, I just don't see the point of this. Nobody has seen any of these players in the NBA yet. That means I'm not allowed to have an opinion? This is the off-season, what else are we supposed to talk about other than speculating on how the players we just acquired might fit together as a group or how the rookies are looking so far? I never said WCS is a bust or that he's a poor fit for our team. Mainly I've said that I'm less optimistic about his ceiling as a player than a lot of other people are. And that's all it is at this point, speculation based on available evidence. Your last statement is exactly what I expressed. A gut feeling. I'm not rooting against anybody, I'm not placing bets, I just have a gut feeling and I'm generally pretty confident in my gut feelings.
I realize false modesty is something of an obsession in our current culture, but I'm not going to go around equivocating everything I say regardless of fashion. Sometimes you just have to risk being wrong or never express anything at all. If I were interested in making only "safe" statements that can't be proven wrong I would have framed my comments in a different manner. I want to go on record and risk being proven wrong in the same way Vlade and his scouts did when they made their pick.
And this goes both ways. Part of the reason people are reacting so strongly to my criticism is that they have already made up their minds that I'm wrong before we've seen Cauley-Stein play a single NBA game.
I don't really think anyone is out to get me lawlman91, though I do appreciate you extending the olive branch. Watching the wheels of hyperbole get up and running, driving that big ole' steamroller of conformity always catches me a little off guard though. It's like an army of white blood cells swarming the contagion. Dissenting opinion! Attack, attack! It's kindof funny if you take a step to the side and watch it happening. The best part is that people are already referencing the Tyreke/Rubio debate now as if this has somehow stretched on for years. The draft was three weeks ago. I would bet that most of this will already be forgotten two weeks into the season because we'll all be so focused on tearing each other apart about whatever Rondo, DeMarcus, and George Karl are doing at the time. But that's just a gut feeling too.
I realize false modesty is something of an obsession in our current culture, but I'm not going to go around equivocating everything I say regardless of fashion. Sometimes you just have to risk being wrong or never express anything at all. If I were interested in making only "safe" statements that can't be proven wrong I would have framed my comments in a different manner. I want to go on record and risk being proven wrong in the same way Vlade and his scouts did when they made their pick.
And this goes both ways. Part of the reason people are reacting so strongly to my criticism is that they have already made up their minds that I'm wrong before we've seen Cauley-Stein play a single NBA game.
I don't really think anyone is out to get me lawlman91, though I do appreciate you extending the olive branch. Watching the wheels of hyperbole get up and running, driving that big ole' steamroller of conformity always catches me a little off guard though. It's like an army of white blood cells swarming the contagion. Dissenting opinion! Attack, attack! It's kindof funny if you take a step to the side and watch it happening. The best part is that people are already referencing the Tyreke/Rubio debate now as if this has somehow stretched on for years. The draft was three weeks ago. I would bet that most of this will already be forgotten two weeks into the season because we'll all be so focused on tearing each other apart about whatever Rondo, DeMarcus, and George Karl are doing at the time. But that's just a gut feeling too.
Of course you are. As I said, there's a difference between having an early opinion on something that is a long way from being played out and outright stating that something is foregone. It sounds as if I may have inadvertently mistaken you as the one that acted as if Mudiay's performance in Den-Sac SL game somehow lent further credence to the idea that the Kings made a mistake selecting WCS over him. For that I apologize. Regardless, the main point is that whichever side of the fence one chooses to position themselves, there's simply no right or wrong answer at this time. I think we agree on that.
You honestly think this is the first time I've ever watched these two players and I'm basing my conclusions entirely on 20 minutes of summer league basketball? I mean, the level of condescension here is practically performance art.
And for the record, I have no problem with you, either as a poster or on a personal level. I disagree with you. And you happen to be the only grown adult posting that is so extremely down on WCS. But let's be clear, you have a right to an opinion and everyone else also gets to tell you why you're wrong. That's also part of the deal.
As for guys that are great defenders that aren't great rebounders, one need look no further than Marc Gasol and his career 7.9 rebounding average. He just got all nba averaging 7.8 rebounds. That's NOT a comparison of Willie to Gasol. Just saying, such a thing DOES exist at very high levels. And like Marc with Zbo, Willie will be paired with an elite rebounder like Boogie (eventually anyway). Rebounding IS a weakness, no denying it. But as far as his fit on this team, I think it's very good and that particular weakness will be less of a downside when paired with one of the NBA's elite rebounders. And how much of a downside really remains to be seen. Will his rebounding hurt the team? That's the real question.
I also think his extreme athleticism WILL translate to the NBA. He will STILL be able to get away with being out of position. Yes, he'll need to learn better fundamentals. But man, what a nice amount of talent to work with.
People need to realize that there are a finite number of rebounds a team can get each game. Put DJ, Cousins, LeBron, James Harden and John Wall on a team together, and you're going to see everyone's rebound rate significantly decline. They all of a sudden didn't become worse rebounders; they just didn't have the same opportunity to grab rebounds as they did with their old squads. In the same fashion, its not like that team would start pulling down 60 rebounds a game.
It's a skill that significantly regresses in importance once you get to a certain point. When we have someone like Cousins on the floor, who's a proven top 5 rebounder year in and year out, we get to prioritize other skills in players rather than rebounding. Not that we can have 4 John Salmons out there, but the sheer presence of having Cousins allows the flexibility of playing a WCS, who likely projects as an average-below average rebounder at the next level.
I mean, we were one of the best rebounding teams in the game last season with Landry, Reggie, Williams and JT as our bigs rotation.
It's a skill that significantly regresses in importance once you get to a certain point. When we have someone like Cousins on the floor, who's a proven top 5 rebounder year in and year out, we get to prioritize other skills in players rather than rebounding. Not that we can have 4 John Salmons out there, but the sheer presence of having Cousins allows the flexibility of playing a WCS, who likely projects as an average-below average rebounder at the next level.
I mean, we were one of the best rebounding teams in the game last season with Landry, Reggie, Williams and JT as our bigs rotation.
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True, but 47 games and 700 minutes wouldn't take us from bad or middle of the road rebounding team to an elite one like we were. That of course begs the question. Does anyone really think that Reggie and his rebounding last season would be anywhere close to as valuable as what WCS can do for us?
And we certainly have the ability to make up the rebounding lost from Reggie. Rondo will help, Koufos is a lot better than JT and we get 1400 minutes of no D-Will rebounding, which is a massive boost. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see us be the best rebounding team in the NBA next season.
And we certainly have the ability to make up the rebounding lost from Reggie. Rondo will help, Koufos is a lot better than JT and we get 1400 minutes of no D-Will rebounding, which is a massive boost. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see us be the best rebounding team in the NBA next season.
