Current Team Discussion and Possible Trades

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KingsFan80

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The question you keep dodging is: what is that knowledge? What is it that they know that no one else does? What is it that having some experience as an assistant GM that gives them GM abilities. And why does that mean they know how to put together a winning team more than someone who actually played the game?

What I've gathered from your response is - there isn't any skill that you can point to that a former player with a good contracts lawyer or guy with good CBA knowledge can't get done. And that's exactly what Vlade's staff consists of.
We are not going to meet a middle ground because you are going to stand up for Vlade regardless of what I say. Would you hire a head coach that had never been an assistant? Would that make you feel comfortable? Would you sign someone to play in a basketball game that had never played basketball? Would you want an accountant handling your finances that didn't have training or a degree in accounting? It is the same logic. I am not sure how PDA was such a bad GM. He landed Rudy Gay and Collison -aka two of our best players right now. We haven't been able to get any better talent since he left. The biggest issue was Vivek created a mess that nobody could be successful in.
 
We are not going to meet a middle ground because you are going to stand up for Vlade regardless of what I say. Would you hire a head coach that had never been an assistant? Would that make you feel comfortable? Would you sign someone to play in a basketball game that had never played basketball? Would you want an accountant handling your finances that didn't have training or a degree in accounting? It is the same logic. I am not sure how PDA was such a bad GM. He landed Rudy Gay and Collison -aka two of our best players right now. We haven't been able to get any better talent since he left. The biggest issue was Vivek created a mess that nobody could be successful in.
Your not sure how PDA was a bad GM? That says a lot. He lost Tyreke and IT for essentially nothing. He was part of the getting rid of Malone and the dumpster fire that followed. The team was turning a corner (whether or not sustainable we'll never know) and as GM he allowed that to be scuttled in a stupid power play.

A middle ground requires one to go to the middle. I'm in the group that says give him time, the jury is still out.
 
Vlade was inexperienced when he first took over. It's clear as day. No one with FO experience would have been robbed blind by Sam Hinkie in the awful 76ers trade.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Staff member
Vlade was inexperienced when he first took over. It's clear as day. No one with FO experience would have been robbed blind by Sam Hinkie in the awful 76ers trade.
Ongoing tally from that "awful 76ers trade" (Players still in the league/that will be in the league):

Nik Stauskas
first round pick 2019

for

Kosta Koufos
Malachi Richardson
 
Ongoing tally from that "awful 76ers trade" (Players still in the league/that will be in the league):

Nik Stauskas
first round pick 2019

for

Kosta Koufos
Malachi Richardson
That unprotected 2019 pick is going to hurt. You should be able to get something more than capspace for the draft pick on a team that is a perennial loser.
 
Ongoing tally from that "awful 76ers trade" (Players still in the league/that will be in the league):

Nik Stauskas
first round pick 2019

for

Kosta Koufos
Malachi Richardson
If we want to do it your way, one could easily interpret the trade as

Nik Stauskas
2018 1st round pick

for

Rajon Rondo.

It's still awful. We didn't get Malachi Richardson or Kosta Koufos from that trade. We got Luka Mitrovic+Arturas Guaditis.....
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Staff member
If we want to do it your way, one could easily interpret the trade as

Nik Stauskas
2018 1st round pick

for

Rajon Rondo.

It's still awful. We didn't get Malachi Richardson or Kosta Koufos from that trade. We got Luka Mitrovic+Arturas Guaditis.....
It wasn't a trade for pieces. It was a trade for opportunity. The opportunity to change the direction and tone of the franchise.
 
It wasn't a trade for pieces. It was a trade for opportunity. The opportunity to change the direction and tone of the franchise.
Yes, by bringing in Kosta Koufos and Marco Belinelli. Which is a poor way to change the direction of the franchise. You trade high level assets if you are ready to add a high value player. Not for the "opportunity".

I agree with you on most things but trading away a future likely high lotto pick, the risk and trade challenge implications of 2 swaps and a recent lotto pick for cap space when your franchise has failed to attract FA talent is a poor decision. There are 3-4 other ways we could have approached the same scenario with better outcomes. It was a very bad move that has rightly been mocked as a very bad move.
 
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Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Staff member
Yes, by bringing in Kosta Koufos and Marco Belinelli. Which is a poor way to change the direction of the franchise. You trade high level assets if you are ready to add a high value player. Not for the "opportunity".

I agree with you on most things but trading away a future likely high lotto pick, the risk and trade challenge implications of 2 swaps and a recent lotto pick for cap space when your franchise has failed to attract FA talent is a poor decision. There are 3-4 other ways we could have approached the same scenario with better outcomes. It was a very bad move that has rightly been mocked as a very bad move.
We traded dead money. That's not a "high value asset". No team not involved in an epic tank was going to take our soul-killing drab forwards and their contracts. Nik Stauskas had very limited value after an atrocious rookie flop. And that 2019 pick could still easily be #20, which will get you a very sexy 10th-12th man more often than not. The pick was the only thing with any sheen to it.
 
We traded dead money. That's not a "high value asset". No team not involved in an epic tank was going to take our soul-killing drab forwards and their contracts. Nik Stauskas had very limited value after an atrocious rookie flop. And that 2019 pick could still easily be #20, which will get you a very sexy 10th-12th man more often than not. The pick was the only thing with any sheen to it.
1 rookie year doesn't define an entire career. Most smart GM's would know that. There's no way the pick is "easily" going to be #20. It's going to at least be mid-range.
 
We are not going to meet a middle ground because you are going to stand up for Vlade regardless of what I say. Would you hire a head coach that had never been an assistant? Would that make you feel comfortable? Would you sign someone to play in a basketball game that had never played basketball? Would you want an accountant handling your finances that didn't have training or a degree in accounting? It is the same logic. I am not sure how PDA was such a bad GM. He landed Rudy Gay and Collison -aka two of our best players right now. We haven't been able to get any better talent since he left. The biggest issue was Vivek created a mess that nobody could be successful in.
WOW! Just WOW! This is eaither a clear troll or you really have no freaking idea. Have you forgotten the shannanigams of 2014-2015 season?

I am speechless! I really am!
 
The Kings have gone 11 straight years (this year will make it an even dozen even if the pick gets conveyed to Chicago) where their draft pick was not 20th or higher.

Take out Quincy Douby (#19 in 2005) and it's a full decade (and very likely 11 in a row this summer) where they haven't had a pick lower than 12th (Jason Thompson) and every other pick besides JT being top 8 or better.

Betting on the Kings to have a lottery pick has been as safe a bet as there is in the NBA over the last 10 seasons.
 
We are not going to meet a middle ground because you are going to stand up for Vlade regardless of what I say. Would you hire a head coach that had never been an assistant? Would that make you feel comfortable? Would you sign someone to play in a basketball game that had never played basketball? Would you want an accountant handling your finances that didn't have training or a degree in accounting? It is the same logic. I am not sure how PDA was such a bad GM. He landed Rudy Gay and Collison -aka two of our best players right now. We haven't been able to get any better talent since he left. The biggest issue was Vivek created a mess that nobody could be successful in.
You mean like Steve Kerr?

For good measure Kerr was also the GM in Phoenix despite not ever being an assistant GM.

Hornacek and Kidd are two other current NBA head coaches without any experience as assistant coaches.
 
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I searched online for Gay's injury updated and saw this RUMOR.

A proposed trade deal is being recommended to the Thunder, Pelicans, and Kings that involves 6 players. Trade scenario is suggesting as follows:


1. The New Orleans Pelicans will acquire Enes Kanter from the Thunder and Darren Collison from the Kings;


2. The Sacramento Kings will then get Kyle Singler from the Thunder and Jrue Holiday from the Pelicans;




3. Finally, the Oklahoma City Thunder will receive Rudy Gay from the Kings and Alexis Ajinca from the Pelicans.



My first reaction was literally LOL. We are giving up a very good SF for a benchwarmer in Singler as replacement and our starting PG for an injury prone one. If we really do this trade, Vlade would need to be canned.
 
I searched online for Gay's injury updated and saw this RUMOR.

A proposed trade deal is being recommended to the Thunder, Pelicans, and Kings that involves 6 players. Trade scenario is suggesting as follows:

1. The New Orleans Pelicans will acquire Enes Kanter from the Thunder and Darren Collison from the Kings;

2. The Sacramento Kings will then get Kyle Singler from the Thunder and Jrue Holiday from the Pelicans;



3. Finally, the Oklahoma City Thunder will receive Rudy Gay from the Kings and Alexis Ajinca from the Pelicans.



My first reaction was literally LOL. We are giving up a very good SF for a benchwarmer in Singler as replacement and our starting PG for an injury prone one. If we really do this trade, Vlade would need to be canned.
That trade doesn't doesn't even work under the cap rules. And why would OKC send out their sixth man for Rudy?
 
I was just reading Kings articles on BR and sac kings nation. One has Greg Anthony's top five dissapointments this season. His number one is Ben. The other has an article about how CJ McCollum is the best player of the 2013 draft.

Hey I hate to dwell but every draft board had us taking McCollum yet PDA was willing to trade up if he could get Ben and he shat himself when he fell to us.

Why lord have we had such incompetence in the FO over the years?
 
[quote="Bricklayer, post: 1287488, member: 199" And that 2019 pick could still easily be #20, which will get you a very sexy 10th-12th man more often than not. The pick was the only thing with any sheen to it.[/quote]

Is this your expectations for Skal and Richarson?
 
I searched online for Gay's injury updated and saw this RUMOR.

A proposed trade deal is being recommended to the Thunder, Pelicans, and Kings that involves 6 players. Trade scenario is suggesting as follows:

1. The New Orleans Pelicans will acquire Enes Kanter from the Thunder and Darren Collison from the Kings;

2. The Sacramento Kings will then get Kyle Singler from the Thunder and Jrue Holiday from the Pelicans;



3. Finally, the Oklahoma City Thunder will receive Rudy Gay from the Kings and Alexis Ajinca from the Pelicans.



My first reaction was literally LOL. We are giving up a very good SF for a benchwarmer in Singler as replacement and our starting PG for an injury prone one. If we really do this trade, Vlade would need to be canned.
Too bad Holiday has the durability issue, otherwise I like him and hes only 26.

If we are going to lose Rudy anyways I still think a trade with OKC involving Gay and Payne is fine. Then if this drafts best PG's are off the board we can go with a promising SF.
 
I searched online for Gay's injury updated and saw this RUMOR.

A proposed trade deal is being recommended to the Thunder, Pelicans, and Kings that involves 6 players. Trade scenario is suggesting as follows:

1. The New Orleans Pelicans will acquire Enes Kanter from the Thunder and Darren Collison from the Kings;

2. The Sacramento Kings will then get Kyle Singler from the Thunder and Jrue Holiday from the Pelicans;


3. Finally, the Oklahoma City Thunder will receive Rudy Gay from the Kings and Alexis Ajinca from the Pelicans.



My first reaction was literally LOL. We are giving up a very good SF for a benchwarmer in Singler as replacement and our starting PG for an injury prone one. If we really do this trade, Vlade would need to be canned.
I searched online for Gay's injury updated and saw this RUMOR.

A proposed trade deal is being recommended to the Thunder, Pelicans, and Kings that involves 6 players. Trade scenario is suggesting as follows:

1. The New Orleans Pelicans will acquire Enes Kanter from the Thunder and Darren Collison from the Kings;

2. The Sacramento Kings will then get Kyle Singler from the Thunder and Jrue Holiday from the Pelicans;



3. Finally, the Oklahoma City Thunder will receive Rudy Gay from the Kings and Alexis Ajinca from the Pelicans.



My first reaction was literally LOL. We are giving up a very good SF for a benchwarmer in Singler as replacement and our starting PG for an injury prone one. If we really do this trade, Vlade would need to be canned.
I like Holiday but he's a FA next year. I think Payne may be the Kings best bet for Gay
 
Yeah, I want to see a backcourt of Payne and Malichi. I believe those two use the same barber so the chemistry is already there. Also, they both say Kobe is their favorite player but hey.
 
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K

KingsFan80

Guest
WOW! Just WOW! This is eaither a clear troll or you really have no freaking idea. Have you forgotten the shannanigams of 2014-2015 season?

I am speechless! I really am!
Ok yeah I will even call myself out on that. I didn't fully think that out before making that comment. Forgot about Tyreke and IT. You are right PDA, for the most part sucked. I was thinking more of him getting Rudy Gay
 
K

KingsFan80

Guest
You mean like Steve Kerr?

For good measure Kerr was also the GM in Phoenix despite not ever being an assistant GM.

Hornacek and Kidd are two other current NBA head coaches without any experience as assistant coaches.
I could coach the Warriors and win that many games. They are stacked!!! Kerr is an exception. Man you guys really would do anything to back Vlade. I just want to win!
 
K

KingsFan80

Guest
If we want to do it your way, one could easily interpret the trade as

Nik Stauskas
2018 1st round pick

for

Rajon Rondo.

It's still awful. We didn't get Malachi Richardson or Kosta Koufos from that trade. We got Luka Mitrovic+Arturas Guaditis.....
Never heard of them but more international players??? My god. This is the NBA not the Serbian National Team
 
They were successful BEFORE he got there and made the WCF 2x.
Yes, the Suns success was largely due to Steve Nash the carry over of D'Antoni's system. But you asked how the well the Suns did while Kerr was GM. That's a different question than who was responsible for the Suns success or whether Kerr was a good GM.

I'd argue that he wasn't. In particular the Shaq trade was a big misstep.
 
I could coach the Warriors and win that many games. They are stacked!!! Kerr is an exception. Man you guys really would do anything to back Vlade. I just want to win!
My answer had zero to do with Vlade.

You asked whether anyone would hire a coach who had never been an assistant and I answered.

And the idea that Kerr didn't play a major role in the Warriors going from good to great is belied by the fact that Golden State dumped Mark Jackson in favor of a coach who could take them to the next level. Kerr did.

I have no issue criticizing Vlade's moves. I've done it a few times. But you (and a few others) keep holding on to this narrative that "experience" is a huge key to success as an NBA GM and it just isn't. In a lot of jobs it is. You learn the ropes, move up the ladder and if you're good enough you keep rising in the organization. In most areas you want the person with more experience. Plumbers, Lawyers, Engineers, etc. All else being equal, the person who has done it longer is usually a safe bet.

Being an NBA GM isn't most jobs. Who is the best GM in the NBA?

R.C. Buford? He was an assistant coach at Kansas before becoming an assistant with the Spurs and working his way up to lead assistant. After a year with the University of Florida and one with the Clippers he came back to the Spurs as the head scout, then director of scouting, then assistant GM and then the GM. Absolutely had a ton of experience before becoming GM. Is one of the best in the biz.

Danny Ainge? After his playing career he briefly coached the Suns before resigning and then was named GM of the Celtics. Zero front office experience. Is one of the best in the biz.

I think you have things a bit backwards. Most of us aren't "doing anything to back Vlade" - we're saying that we have to wait and see. He's been on the job for less than two seasons. He may end up being a bad GM. He may not. But constantly firing guys a year or two in is a large part of why the Kings have sucked for as long as they have. But you seem to be going out of your way to trash the guy at every turn - including this "he has no experience!" line of criticism which has never been a predictor of success or failure as an NBA GM. Guys get judged on whether they improve a roster or not. I think Divac deserves at least one more offseason before labeling his tenure a failure.
 
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Ok yeah I will even call myself out on that. I didn't fully think that out before making that comment. Forgot about Tyreke and IT. You are right PDA, for the most part sucked. I was thinking more of him getting Rudy Gay
PDA's massive failure is not only related to getting talent but undermining everything good that took place under Malone because of his power trip. He seems to fit your prototype of what type of GM should be hired given his extensive experience as a player agent and assistant GM with Denver and great understanding of the CBA and salary cap. The problem is he has no basketball accumen and the results were catastrophic. At least Vlade understands what stability means, he understands what makes good teams. He doesn't manage by spreadsheet he goes it by basketball feel because hwas was there as a player and president of Olympic Committee for Serbia. A country which incidentally improved their olympic success significantly once Vlade took charge.

Time will tell whether or not he is any good but at this point, he has done more good than PDA could ever dream off and that is depite having to clean up the mess that PDA left behind.
 
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